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On September 17 2012 14:48 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:37 Newbistic wrote:
The interesting thing about these protests is that I think they actually hurt the Chinese government's ability to diplomatically contest for the islands with Japan. It's hard to take the moral high ground against Japan when your own citizens are acting like idiotic barbarians, and bringing up unrelated injustices of the past is hardly an effective way to argue for your cause.
You can tell the Chinese government is in a quandary over these protests because they haven't made any move to support these citizens (although, they haven't done anything to stop them yet). If they choose to move aggressively against Japan as per the citizens' requests, they risk looking stupid to the international community, but if they choose to crack down on the protests, they'll look like they're selling out to Japan. That's is government support =p allowing protests in a country known for cracking down on protests is government approval, Similar effect to the protest over the bombing of Chinese embassy in belgrade. China isn't afraid to crack down on it's citizens nor does it care what the international/internal community cares about it doing such crack downs =p it's allowing this because Chinese nationalism is accepted. China's government had a hard time selling distrust and hate of the west after moving to the will of the dollar and it's people falling in love with things imported from the west, so any time anti- country that isn't china pops up china is all for it, it became hard to teach Chinese nationalism post cultural revolution so anytime it's just naturally there they are happy. Anyways it doesn't hurt their chances for legitimate claim over the territorial waters, china claims to many supposedly ancient Chinese territorial area's with no poof or just random shit that this wouldn't hurt their chances. Frankly i think most of their water disputes will be solved diplomatically with either small successions to the claims or deals being brokered.
I would like to direct you to the front page of the central Chinese state run media site:
http://news.cntv.cn/
Where there are dozens of articles and it's the head line. There's been statements and actions from police departments already. China is cracking down. Its method of cracking down is to keep it in the dark rather than make a public campaign against the protests because it reflects badly on them i.e. not the same stand point.
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On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial.
Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars and help end the cold war is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie.
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On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie.
What lie? The point was just that these countries as diplomatic bodies do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it.
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On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries as diplomatic bodies do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it.
To Semantics:
Just because you prefer one body to another, doesn't mean you officially recognize it. I understand that the PRC essentially forces the holding on most countries due to its refusal to trade for it, but most countries would rather denounce the sovereignty of Taiwan than lose a market to China.
If China were to invade Taiwan, I do in fact believe that the EU and the USA would intervene. But I frankly don't see that happening anytime soon. China might be getting more and more powerful lately, but they are neither stupid nor do they possess any animosity towards western culture. In fact most Chinese LOVE American culture and are shocked to learn what Westerners think of them as.
Source: I've lived in China for the past year.
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On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it.
The world is black and white to you? the US is a nation that doesn't recognize Taiwan sovereignty but sells weapons to it and is well known to support Taiwan if china invades it. But then again if the US recognized Taiwan it would invalidate their trade agreements with china =p
The original post that you tried to be all punctilious about had that in mind. Or is an adopted child not really those parents sons not a biological son =p
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These riots make me sick, these atrocities are so unjust and their bullshit patriotic cause is so weak.
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On September 17 2012 15:02 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. The world is black and white to you? the US is a nation that doesn't recognize Taiwan sovereignty but sells weapons to it and is well known to support Taiwan if china invades it. But then again if the US recognized Taiwan it would invalidate their trade agreements with china =p The original post that you tried to be all punctilious about had that in mind. Or is an adopted child not really those parents sons not a biological son =p
Yes Diplomatic stand points are black and white. Either a country recognizes another country's sovereignty or it doesn't.
Here's the original quote
"... but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC"
Which is objectively true. Japan stopped recognizing Taiwan's sovereignty in 1972. South Korea in 1992. This is black and white. I have no idea what your argument is. It's not about rather I personally think these countries should or should not or what the people of the country think.
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On September 17 2012 15:05 cheeseosaur wrote:
These riots make me sick, these atrocities are so unjust and their bullshit patriotic cause is so weak.
The riots make all of us sick, but I wouldn't call them 'atrocities'. I would call the Rape of Nanking an 'atrocity'. I would call Unit 731 an 'atrocity'. I would much rather call this 'unwarranted vandalism under the guise of patriotism'. You have to realize, the rioters are a minority. China has over a billion people in it, and a majority of that number isn't smashing the first Toyota they see. The riots can pretty much be deduced to widespread banditry.
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Wow, I can understand and comprehend China's general anti-Japan sentiments, but it looks like this just really erupted. Looking at that list of pictures from reddit and reading up on some of what's happening....wow. The protests just went crazy, it's actually very scary how bad it has gotten.
Also update #6 in the OP is sort of depressing....what if that guy actually got killed...that's just beyond a prank :\
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On September 17 2012 15:12 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:02 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. The world is black and white to you? the US is a nation that doesn't recognize Taiwan sovereignty but sells weapons to it and is well known to support Taiwan if china invades it. But then again if the US recognized Taiwan it would invalidate their trade agreements with china =p The original post that you tried to be all punctilious about had that in mind. Or is an adopted child not really those parents sons not a biological son =p Yes Diplomatic stand points are black and white. Either a country recognizes another country's sovereignty or it doesn't. Here's the original quote "... but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC"Which is objectively true. Japan stopped recognizing Taiwan's sovereignty in 1972. South Korea in 1992. This is black and white. I have no idea what your argument is. It's not about rather I personally think these countries should or should not or what the people of the country think.
Yes and all crime of the same nature such a thievery and murder should all be treated exactly the same no matter the circumstance =p If you can't understand what the original poster was going on about but can only see technicality there is no point as seeing in shades of gray is not something you teach it's something you grow up into.
Or did you not read the first line, I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back
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On September 17 2012 15:20 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:12 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:02 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. The world is black and white to you? the US is a nation that doesn't recognize Taiwan sovereignty but sells weapons to it and is well known to support Taiwan if china invades it. But then again if the US recognized Taiwan it would invalidate their trade agreements with china =p The original post that you tried to be all punctilious about had that in mind. Or is an adopted child not really those parents sons not a biological son =p Yes Diplomatic stand points are black and white. Either a country recognizes another country's sovereignty or it doesn't. Here's the original quote "... but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC"Which is objectively true. Japan stopped recognizing Taiwan's sovereignty in 1972. South Korea in 1992. This is black and white. I have no idea what your argument is. It's not about rather I personally think these countries should or should not or what the people of the country think. Yes and all crime of the same nature such a thievery and murder should all be treated exactly the same no matter the circumstance =p If you can't understand what the original poster was going on about but can only see technicality there is no point as seeing in shades of gray is not something you teach it's something you grow up into. Or did you not read the first line, I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back
I'm just stating he factual evidence that the countries don't recognize RoC's sovereignty. I'm not engaging in the debate regarding the claims to the islands by the PRC. That's completely irrelevant to RoC's sovereignty. What are you going on about. A country, organization, or individual body can perfectly well do anything physical possible be it illegal, unrecognized, undocumented, or unsupported. My personal view doesn't change the fact that Japan hasn't recognized RoC's sovereignty since 1972. What Japan or any other country does while this fact is not changed via diplomatic action doesn't change it either.
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On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong*
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On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong*
There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize.
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On September 17 2012 15:01 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries as diplomatic bodies do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. To Semantics: Just because you prefer one body to another, doesn't mean you officially recognize it. I understand that the PRC essentially forces the holding on most countries due to its refusal to trade for it, but most countries would rather denounce the sovereignty of Taiwan than lose a market to China. If China were to invade Taiwan, I do in fact believe that the EU and the USA would intervene. But I frankly don't see that happening anytime soon. China might be getting more and more powerful lately, but they are neither stupid nor do they possess any animosity towards western culture. In fact most Chinese LOVE American culture and are shocked to learn what Westerners think of them as. Source: I've lived in China for the past year.
Okay, this is not anything against you personalty, but this just happened to be the last post I see.
This line REALLY bothers me:
Source: I've lived in China for the past year.
Just because you lived in China for the past year, it does not make your opinion any more valid or credible than anyone else's. What you are stating is just an opinion, and you don't need a source to state your opinion. By putting down 'source', you will inevitably be perceived as trying to pass it off as a fact regardless of your original intent, which is wrong.
Unless you've unbiasdly selected and sampled a large collection of people from all over China, what you are saying is just a blatant generalization limited to and based off of a very small locale and a very finite sample of people, and the fact that you've lived in China does not offer you any more credibility.
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On September 17 2012 15:35 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:01 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries as diplomatic bodies do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. To Semantics: Just because you prefer one body to another, doesn't mean you officially recognize it. I understand that the PRC essentially forces the holding on most countries due to its refusal to trade for it, but most countries would rather denounce the sovereignty of Taiwan than lose a market to China. If China were to invade Taiwan, I do in fact believe that the EU and the USA would intervene. But I frankly don't see that happening anytime soon. China might be getting more and more powerful lately, but they are neither stupid nor do they possess any animosity towards western culture. In fact most Chinese LOVE American culture and are shocked to learn what Westerners think of them as. Source: I've lived in China for the past year. Okay, this is not anything against you personalty, but this just happened to be the last post I see. This line REALLY bothers me: Just because you lived in China for the past year, it does not make your opinion any more valid or credible than anyone else's. What you are stating is just an opinion, and you don't need a source to state your opinion. By putting down 'source', you will inevitably be perceived as trying to pass it off as a fact regardless of your original intent, which is wrong. Unless you've unbiasdly selected and sampled a large collection of people from all over China, what you are saying is just a blatant generalization limited to and based off of a very small locale and a very finite sample of people, and the fact that you've lived in China does not offer you any more credibility.
Offers more credibility than most people who know nothing first hand, which is most people around here I think. And sourcing one self isn't making it a fact, more like pointing to self as an expert witness, which is subjective and in this case, yes pretty shallow.
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On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize.
Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view.
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On September 17 2012 15:24 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:20 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 15:12 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:02 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. The world is black and white to you? the US is a nation that doesn't recognize Taiwan sovereignty but sells weapons to it and is well known to support Taiwan if china invades it. But then again if the US recognized Taiwan it would invalidate their trade agreements with china =p The original post that you tried to be all punctilious about had that in mind. Or is an adopted child not really those parents sons not a biological son =p Yes Diplomatic stand points are black and white. Either a country recognizes another country's sovereignty or it doesn't. Here's the original quote "... but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC"Which is objectively true. Japan stopped recognizing Taiwan's sovereignty in 1972. South Korea in 1992. This is black and white. I have no idea what your argument is. It's not about rather I personally think these countries should or should not or what the people of the country think. Yes and all crime of the same nature such a thievery and murder should all be treated exactly the same no matter the circumstance =p If you can't understand what the original poster was going on about but can only see technicality there is no point as seeing in shades of gray is not something you teach it's something you grow up into. Or did you not read the first line, I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back I'm just stating he factual evidence that the countries don't recognize RoC's sovereignty. I'm not engaging in the debate regarding the claims to the islands by the PRC. That's completely irrelevant to RoC's sovereignty. What are you going on about. A country, organization, or individual body can perfectly well do anything physical possible be it illegal, unrecognized, undocumented, or unsupported. My personal view doesn't change the fact that Japan hasn't recognized RoC's sovereignty since 1972. What Japan or any other country does while this fact is not changed via diplomatic action doesn't change it either.
Agreed national sovereignty is black and white. Comparing them to degrees of crime blows my fucking mind. ![[image loading]](http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/guns/suicide.gif)
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On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong*
Hong Kong is slowly getting converted: when you rely on mainland China to financially support your region, you will need to slowly open up to their biddings.
It is also somewhat ironic that these few days there are anti-Chinese smugglers/bootlegger protests. A good part of the smuggled products are japanese goods as well...
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On September 17 2012 15:35 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:01 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:55 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:51 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 14:41 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 14:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On September 17 2012 13:50 Liph wrote:
I do, however, firmly believe China has no claim to the Senkaku islands and that they should never ever be allowed to annex Taiwan back, because the western world as well as Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia has a firm recognition in Taiwan's rightful sovereignty, and it has simply been too long for this not to be a conflict with millions of unnecessary casualties if it were to escalate. I agree with some of your points, but Japan, S. Korea, and South Asia do NOT have recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC I think you should actually learn a thing or two, because it's not about recognizing country it's about semantics of recognizing one china. What is listed below is recognizing legitimate ruler of china. Not actually recognizing Taiwan as a separate legitimate nation. And the majority of those recognitions are forced though trade agreements, ie if you officially recognize Taiwan china will not trade with you. It's more dealing with word play rather then beliefs, the US doesn't recognize the RoC per deal to trade with the PRC but still sells military assets to them. In similar capacity s korean government and japan still will do business with the RoC and would prefer if the PRC would invade Taiwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China_Policy The point was that these countries do not recognize Taiwan's independent sovereignty, rather or not you recognize one china is irrelevant. If I do not recognize the sovereignty of Germany but I recognize the EU I still do not recognize Germany as having its own sovereignty. Either you recognize something on principle or you don't, the reasons are circumstantial. Either you trade with china or you treat it like north korea, China unlike north korea was a bit too big to give it that sorta treatment, so making relations with China in order to insure that china doesn't start wars is a small price to pay to just saying oh yeah we wont recognize Taiwan. To say the international community just doesn't recognize Taiwan flat out is a soft lie. What lie? The point was just that these countries as diplomatic bodies do not recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, that's it. To Semantics: Just because you prefer one body to another, doesn't mean you officially recognize it. I understand that the PRC essentially forces the holding on most countries due to its refusal to trade for it, but most countries would rather denounce the sovereignty of Taiwan than lose a market to China. If China were to invade Taiwan, I do in fact believe that the EU and the USA would intervene. But I frankly don't see that happening anytime soon. China might be getting more and more powerful lately, but they are neither stupid nor do they possess any animosity towards western culture. In fact most Chinese LOVE American culture and are shocked to learn what Westerners think of them as. Source: I've lived in China for the past year. Okay, this is not anything against you personalty, but this just happened to be the last post I see. This line REALLY bothers me: Just because you lived in China for the past year, it does not make your opinion any more valid or credible than anyone else's. What you are stating is just an opinion, and you don't need a source to state your opinion. By putting down 'source', you will inevitably be perceived as trying to pass it off as a fact regardless of your original intent, which is wrong. Unless you've unbiasdly selected and sampled a large collection of people from all over China, what you are saying is just a blatant generalization limited to and based off of a very small locale and a very finite sample of people, and the fact that you've lived in China does not offer you any more credibility.
Sorry, I put that source to support my part about the Chinese people loving the American culture. I am an American first and foremost. And I get my facts from American sources.
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On September 17 2012 15:41 weishime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 15:34 Caihead wrote:On September 17 2012 15:31 Xpace wrote:
On a related note, Hong Kongers should be extra glad that the peaceful protests succeeded in stopping the "national studies" curriculum that China was trying to implement.
Imagine your children growing up with the mentality of these rioters!
*pictures the amount of Japanese-made cars/shops in Hong Kong* There's no explicit linkage with the national studies curriculum that was proposed and never implemented (thus evidence is circumstantial and just projections) and the mentality of these rioters :/ Don't generalize. Yeah it's not like indoctrination from a young age can lead to those kids becoming adults with an extreme nationalist bent. Willing to attack anyone/anything related to a selected group. That never happens when you teach heavily biased history, follow it up with flag worship and dump very selective information into the media they view.
Sigh... The national studies curriculum that China was trying to implement in Hong Kong is not directly linked with the educational curriculum that these rioters have recieved, that's circumstantial rather or not you can find a case where a rioter was influenced by a proposed and never materialized course (where the course material isn't even released). I'm not debating the legitimacy of the proposed curriculum because obviously it was offensive and controlling. If you use this logic then all of mainland China would be rioting right now. See my point?
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EPT
