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On September 18 2012 01:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 12:51 Rebornlife wrote:
Everyone knows if this continues to escalate China will turn into exactly what the op posted:
A mass grave
INB4 China and japan declare war,
NK joins in with china and attacks SK for the hell of it,
SK attacks NK,
Then the rest of the world painfully takes sides
NK and China end up barren wasteland
WW3
On a serious note, hopefully this doesn't go any further, because wars have been started over a lot less...
What a drama queen. The only reason this diplomatic shitfest is alive is because both of the two governments are tacitly endorsing it. Japan's election cycle is coming and they want to deflect from their tanking economy and foster faux nationalism to gain more centralized power. China's government is going though a once every decade or so power transition from Hu Jintao to Xi Jinping as well as a seriously slow of the Chinese economy. Both just want to pull the wool over the majority of their own populaces' eyes long enough for them to make contingency plans for the future. To a degree South Korea is doing this as well via the hilarious argument about Dokdo... which no country in the international community believes is part of Japan, but Japan itself. All of these countries' politicians are working with each other to allow utterly pointless minor issues color their national interest until they simply deem it no longer necessary and return to the status quo...
Sorry for being a bit off topic, but is this true? The only thing I really know about it is that Japan proposed to bring this case to the International Court of Justice, but South Korea refuses.
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On September 18 2012 01:21 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:09 forestry wrote:i heard it was called Tsim Gok in china... ?? no? chinese thugs/killers just destroyed/burned down a samsung factory... Lol... "down with japan!...oh wait..."
From wikipedia
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (Korean: 삼성전자, KRX: 005930, KRX: 005935, LSE: SMSN, LSE: SMSD) is a South Korean multinational electronics and information technology company headquartered in Suwon, South Korea.
It gets worse. Many people have started looting places like Rolex for the priceless watches.
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and the mindlessness continues...
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Actually (did not see that anywhere in the thread), China started, uhm.. "Säbelrasseln", like "saber-rattling" (dont really know if it means the same in english). There was a big military exercise over the last days in the east-chinese sea, including firing 40 rockets from ships, The exercise included anti-submarine warfare, anti-air and anti-rocket, rocket-warfare (attacks) and more. Also it wasn't something with a schedule, they simulated a real battlefield-situation. Overall more than 100 "battle platforms" (guess they mean weaponsystems with that) were used.
I can't find an english source for that, just a german one. click for german source :/
Pretty provocative in my eyes.
Edit: to be clear, i saw about that in news (TV), and googled for a source in the web, that was the first one showing up. Dont pinpoint me on that socialistic stuff, please.
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yeah i read it in the newsweek article as well. the key thing is that something of that magnitude was planned, so this is obviously something that the chinese gov't has been ready to throw out there, which is why the thought of it being merely a way to curb the attention away from the transfer of leadership to be ultimately true, because they DID send out mass media recently saying protests are okay but violence is NOT. so they specifically are just trying to blow smoke to distract, while hopefully not causing japan's hand in anything.
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On September 18 2012 01:20 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 00:47 Nizaris wrote:
thx for the infographic. So basically It was never Chinese. And China only wants it now because of the oil, like every1 knew already. It was never Japanese, either, until they annexed it during the process of imperial expansion. China's stance is that said imperial expansion was not legit, and so the islands are disputed and Japan has no unilateral right to nationalize them. China never had direct jurisdiction over the island, but there are Japanese maps showing that the islands were Chinese territory, and a Japanese admiral who admitted that he did not know whether they belonged to China prior to Japan's annexation. The bottom line is that until 1885, nobody lived on the island, and so no actual authority was enforceable. However, 1895, when Japan formally annexed the islands, happened to be when they formally annexed Taiwan as well. It strikes a raw nerve.
thx now i understand a bit better how the Chinese even dare lay claim to something that obviously isn't theirs.
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On September 17 2012 20:15 MaNaVoId wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 19:48 levelping wrote:
It is sad because both countries ultimately have much in common. Heck if the roles were reversed I'm sure china would not be apologizing if they had raped Tokyo during ww2 in some sort of alternative history. Saving face is a big thing on both sides. Sadly a lack of empathy and undersandig appeara to be a common problem too. What's so sad about? If Japan does not want to lose face by apologizing, why did they commit those atrocities in the first place?
I'm sorry but I don't understand your post. Are you saying the people in Japan right now should not have gone to war 70 years ago (I.e before most people were born) so that they don't have to lose face now? The "they" in your sentence refers to two GENERATIONS of people who are different.
Which makes it sadder because all the stuff that has happened in the past is still being dug up to obscure the real reason (oil reserves). And the past being dug up just does not help people getting over what happened.
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On September 18 2012 00:06 rei wrote:well good for them, but it didn't stop the Mongolian from raping and ravaging China now did it? that wall is a failure.
Just a nitpick, but the failure against the Mongols (and against the Manchus later on) was first and foremost a political one. The generals guarding the gates defected to the Mongols and let em straight in.
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On September 18 2012 01:22 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:21 jinorazi wrote:On September 18 2012 01:09 forestry wrote:i heard it was called Tsim Gok in china... ?? no? chinese thugs/killers just destroyed/burned down a samsung factory... Lol... "down with japan!...oh wait..." From wikipedia Show nested quote +Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (Korean: 삼성전자, KRX: 005930, KRX: 005935, LSE: SMSN, LSE: SMSD) is a South Korean multinational electronics and information technology company headquartered in Suwon, South Korea. It gets worse. Many people have started looting places like Rolex for the priceless watches.
It reminds me of the London riots. Hysteria just consuming the population, creating room for opportunistic scumbags to loot indiscriminately.
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On September 18 2012 01:49 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:20 Azarkon wrote:On September 18 2012 00:47 Nizaris wrote:
thx for the infographic. So basically It was never Chinese. And China only wants it now because of the oil, like every1 knew already. It was never Japanese, either, until they annexed it during the process of imperial expansion. China's stance is that said imperial expansion was not legit, and so the islands are disputed and Japan has no unilateral right to nationalize them. China never had direct jurisdiction over the island, but there are Japanese maps showing that the islands were Chinese territory, and a Japanese admiral who admitted that he did not know whether they belonged to China prior to Japan's annexation. The bottom line is that until 1885, nobody lived on the island, and so no actual authority was enforceable. However, 1895, when Japan formally annexed the islands, happened to be when they formally annexed Taiwan as well. It strikes a raw nerve. thx now i understand a bit better how the Chinese even dare lay claim to something that obviously isn't theirs.
The islands belong to neither Japan or China (or any other country). The U.S. unilaterally gave Japan ownership over the islands in 1971, one year before the start of normalized relations between U.S. and China. China and Taiwan have also unilaterally claimed ownership of the islands. None of these claims have any legitimacy. Land ownership laws and rules are completely arbitrary to begin with, but you can make a good argument (e.g., Locke) that the basis for property rights results from the labour exerted upon the land by individuals. Uninhabited and unexploited land thus belongs to no one, unless there is some other argument as to why it rightfully belongs to anyone or any nation (simply declaring that you own the islands or signing a piece of paper is meaningless).
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I love it how people in China are protesting and not a single piece of news related to it appear on China main media. Chinese government on one hand want to let the people keep protesting but on the other hand, they fear it will backfired, if they let this get too big, people will get a good practice and may turn against them when they don't want communism anymore.
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On September 18 2012 02:06 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:49 Nizaris wrote:On September 18 2012 01:20 Azarkon wrote:On September 18 2012 00:47 Nizaris wrote:
thx for the infographic. So basically It was never Chinese. And China only wants it now because of the oil, like every1 knew already. It was never Japanese, either, until they annexed it during the process of imperial expansion. China's stance is that said imperial expansion was not legit, and so the islands are disputed and Japan has no unilateral right to nationalize them. China never had direct jurisdiction over the island, but there are Japanese maps showing that the islands were Chinese territory, and a Japanese admiral who admitted that he did not know whether they belonged to China prior to Japan's annexation. The bottom line is that until 1885, nobody lived on the island, and so no actual authority was enforceable. However, 1895, when Japan formally annexed the islands, happened to be when they formally annexed Taiwan as well. It strikes a raw nerve. thx now i understand a bit better how the Chinese even dare lay claim to something that obviously isn't theirs. The islands belong to neither Japan or China (or any other country). The U.S. unilaterally gave Japan ownership over the islands in 1971, one year before the start of normalized relations between U.S. and China. China and Taiwan have also unilaterally claimed ownership of the islands. None of these claims have any legitimacy. Land ownership laws and rules are completely arbitrary to begin with, but you can make a good argument (e.g., Locke) that the basis for property rights results from the labour exerted upon the land by individuals. Uninhabited and unexploited land thus belongs to no one, unless there is some other argument as to why it rightfully belongs to anyone or any nation (simply declaring that you own the islands or signing a piece of paper is meaningless).
well if it's based on labour exerted, doesn't the original japanese family that owned it/built a factory on it 'own' it?
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On September 18 2012 01:22 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:21 jinorazi wrote:On September 18 2012 01:09 forestry wrote:i heard it was called Tsim Gok in china... ?? no? chinese thugs/killers just destroyed/burned down a samsung factory... Lol... "down with japan!...oh wait..." From wikipedia Show nested quote +Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (Korean: 삼성전자, KRX: 005930, KRX: 005935, LSE: SMSN, LSE: SMSD) is a South Korean multinational electronics and information technology company headquartered in Suwon, South Korea. It gets worse. Many people have started looting places like Rolex for the priceless watches.
Many people just want a chance like this loot/steal whatever they want under the name of protecting the disputed island.
I don't see those protest can go anywhere further since, the Chinese gorvernment doesnt want it gets too big. Chinese people can forget things so easily if the trend goes down. Every Chinese I met mention that they hate Japan but will grab the first chance they get to travel to Japan.
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On September 18 2012 02:27 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:06 reincremate wrote:On September 18 2012 01:49 Nizaris wrote:On September 18 2012 01:20 Azarkon wrote:On September 18 2012 00:47 Nizaris wrote:
thx for the infographic. So basically It was never Chinese. And China only wants it now because of the oil, like every1 knew already. It was never Japanese, either, until they annexed it during the process of imperial expansion. China's stance is that said imperial expansion was not legit, and so the islands are disputed and Japan has no unilateral right to nationalize them. China never had direct jurisdiction over the island, but there are Japanese maps showing that the islands were Chinese territory, and a Japanese admiral who admitted that he did not know whether they belonged to China prior to Japan's annexation. The bottom line is that until 1885, nobody lived on the island, and so no actual authority was enforceable. However, 1895, when Japan formally annexed the islands, happened to be when they formally annexed Taiwan as well. It strikes a raw nerve. thx now i understand a bit better how the Chinese even dare lay claim to something that obviously isn't theirs. The islands belong to neither Japan or China (or any other country). The U.S. unilaterally gave Japan ownership over the islands in 1971, one year before the start of normalized relations between U.S. and China. China and Taiwan have also unilaterally claimed ownership of the islands. None of these claims have any legitimacy. Land ownership laws and rules are completely arbitrary to begin with, but you can make a good argument (e.g., Locke) that the basis for property rights results from the labour exerted upon the land by individuals. Uninhabited and unexploited land thus belongs to no one, unless there is some other argument as to why it rightfully belongs to anyone or any nation (simply declaring that you own the islands or signing a piece of paper is meaningless). well if it's based on labour exerted, doesn't the original japanese family that owned it/built a factory on it 'own' it?
The thing is, they only own it after the Japanese had annexed the island in their imperial expansion. So China say its not legal and they are somewhat right. But on the other hand, China never owns it as well.
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"we need to kill every last Japanese; even if China is turned into a wasteland"
That's some 1940s nazi german linguistics right there. I've only ever known one chinese in my life and she actually was told that the japanese eat babies when she grew up. She was a cute and cheerful girl overall but had so much hate towards chinas neighouring counties. Blew my mind.
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Except, of course, the Jews never did to the Germans what the Japanese did to the Chinese.
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this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
Look up whats happening with Philippines and Vietnam. China used the same claim as it did for the japanese island (that they historically owned literally the entire sea for like 2000 years).
They patrolled and chased away Philippines and vietnamese fishing boats (which are fishing legally in their territories) and even built facilities on spratly and paracel islands which belong to vietnam and garrisoned them.
This hypocrisy of china is making me feel sick. The Chinese govt is not really thinking this through either, they allow their citizens to protest in LARGE groups but that may just be the cue for future protests but with a different aim: to overthrow the corrupted chinese government.
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On September 17 2012 19:41 Desiire wrote:
my Family lives in Japan =O
Hopefully this won't lead on to anything bad (bad = war, global violence, EU/NA getting involved physically)
We're pretty much obligated to help if shit really hits the fan.
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On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
Look up whats happening with Philippines and Vietnam. China used the same claim as it did for the japanese island (that they historically owned literally the entire sea for like 2000 years).
They patrolled and chased away Philippines and vietnamese fishing boats (which are fishing legally in their territories) and even built facilities on spratly and paracel islands which belong to vietnam and garrisoned them.
This hypocrisy of china is making me feel sick. The Chinese govt is not really thinking this through either, they allow their citizens to protest in LARGE groups but that may just be the cue for future protests but with a different aim: to overthrow the corrupted chinese government.
Hypocrisy? Seems kind of the pursuing national interests, Vietnam has the same kind of disputes with nearby countries too. While they complain of getting "bullied" by China they are bullying Laos and Cambodia. Your post is the real hypocrisy lol, every country pursues it's national interests.
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On September 18 2012 03:04 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 19:41 Desiire wrote:
my Family lives in Japan =O
Hopefully this won't lead on to anything bad (bad = war, global violence, EU/NA getting involved physically) We're pretty much obligated to help if shit really hits the fan.
not to mention in the first place, the US loves to butt their heads everywhere
also I have friends in japan, family in taiwan, and family in China, and I+some more of my family is in the US so... herpa derpa, this whole thing is completely stupid.
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