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On September 18 2012 02:27 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:06 reincremate wrote:On September 18 2012 01:49 Nizaris wrote:On September 18 2012 01:20 Azarkon wrote:On September 18 2012 00:47 Nizaris wrote:
thx for the infographic. So basically It was never Chinese. And China only wants it now because of the oil, like every1 knew already. It was never Japanese, either, until they annexed it during the process of imperial expansion. China's stance is that said imperial expansion was not legit, and so the islands are disputed and Japan has no unilateral right to nationalize them. China never had direct jurisdiction over the island, but there are Japanese maps showing that the islands were Chinese territory, and a Japanese admiral who admitted that he did not know whether they belonged to China prior to Japan's annexation. The bottom line is that until 1885, nobody lived on the island, and so no actual authority was enforceable. However, 1895, when Japan formally annexed the islands, happened to be when they formally annexed Taiwan as well. It strikes a raw nerve. thx now i understand a bit better how the Chinese even dare lay claim to something that obviously isn't theirs. The islands belong to neither Japan or China (or any other country). The U.S. unilaterally gave Japan ownership over the islands in 1971, one year before the start of normalized relations between U.S. and China. China and Taiwan have also unilaterally claimed ownership of the islands. None of these claims have any legitimacy. Land ownership laws and rules are completely arbitrary to begin with, but you can make a good argument (e.g., Locke) that the basis for property rights results from the labour exerted upon the land by individuals. Uninhabited and unexploited land thus belongs to no one, unless there is some other argument as to why it rightfully belongs to anyone or any nation (simply declaring that you own the islands or signing a piece of paper is meaningless). well if it's based on labour exerted, doesn't the original japanese family that owned it/built a factory on it 'own' it?
Yeah sure, if you think Locke's argument is sound. If they're still there, then it's their's.
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We could solve every single problem humanity has, if people just co-operated. But nooo, people have to be greedy, corrupted and angry. So, so much anger which creates more anger etc.
I guess the only thing I can do is to sit back and eat popcorn while people beat each other to bloody pulps.
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That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... but its Japan who is bitchy... do they expect to hand those over just because China asked/demanded those? Go to international court like everyone else.
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On September 18 2012 01:58 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 00:06 rei wrote:well good for them, but it didn't stop the Mongolian from raping and ravaging China now did it? that wall is a failure. Just a nitpick, but the failure against the Mongols (and against the Manchus later on) was first and foremost a political one. The generals guarding the gates defected to the Mongols and let em straight in.
Gonna correct the nitpick a bit. General Wu Sangui defected and opened the gates of the great wall to the Manchurians and not the Mongols. He later tried to set himself up as emperor of china, but that didn't really work out for him.
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On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs...
When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide...
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On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics.
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On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics.
And then you realize that China had it just as bad if not worse than Ukraine, still wondering why Chinese people are pissed about people downplaying it?
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On September 18 2012 02:58 Azarkon wrote:
Except, of course, the Jews never did to the Germans what the Japanese did to the Chinese.
It's just as ugly no matter if it's due to percieved or actual crimes.
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On September 18 2012 03:09 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
Look up whats happening with Philippines and Vietnam. China used the same claim as it did for the japanese island (that they historically owned literally the entire sea for like 2000 years).
They patrolled and chased away Philippines and vietnamese fishing boats (which are fishing legally in their territories) and even built facilities on spratly and paracel islands which belong to vietnam and garrisoned them.
This hypocrisy of china is making me feel sick. The Chinese govt is not really thinking this through either, they allow their citizens to protest in LARGE groups but that may just be the cue for future protests but with a different aim: to overthrow the corrupted chinese government. Hypocrisy? Seems kind of the pursuing national interests, Vietnam has the same kind of disputes with nearby countries too. While they complain of getting "bullied" by China they are bullying Laos and Cambodia. Your post is the real hypocrisy lol, every country pursues it's national interests.
did you even google vietnam - cambodia relations before posting? it is true that vietnam had conflicts with cambodia but compare how they dealt with it to how china is dealing with the situation right now. Instead of working things out peacefully, china is using force to threaten its neighbours. China talked about what the imperialistic Japan did to them years ago, what are they doing that's different now?
You said every country pursue it's national interest, true. Except that china's national interest is to take over the world while brainwashing its citizens that it's doing the right thing.
edit - adding Source about vietnam-cambodia dispute (the process of claim-analyse-agreement is being practiced here)
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OK this thread is nearing 1000 posts, so let me just say this.
It is very impressive that we have almost entirely avoided warn/ban in such a controversial thread. I have followed this thread for 50 pages, and I only saw like 2-3 warn/bans maybe? While I disagreed with opinioins in many posts, most arguments were sensible and did not escalate into hate speech war that we often see in other TL threads. This is a very mod friendly thread considering the unpeaceful nature of the topic. Keep up the good work guys 
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On September 18 2012 03:23 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics. And then you realize that China had it just as bad if not worse than Ukraine, still wondering why Chinese people are pissed about people downplaying it?
are you trolling or what? What a huge famine in Ukraine has to do with a territorial dispute over some islands with total area of 5 square km?
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On September 18 2012 03:38 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:23 Taku wrote:On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics. And then you realize that China had it just as bad if not worse than Ukraine, still wondering why Chinese people are pissed about people downplaying it? are you trolling or what? What a huge famine in Ukraine has to do with a territorial dispute over some islands with total area of 5 square km?
Lol someone needs to knock some senses into you.
The reason behind those events where people get jumped for having japanese merchandises is not only over the island dispute. Yes the island dispute might be catalyst that started the fire. But the oil itself was manifested by the collataral damage dealt by Japan to China in the Second World War.
Now you being ignorant to those fact started to scorn at China and make it a joking matter. So Feartheguru make a remark to compare the incidents occurred during the time when Ukraine was still under the management of Russia and how the Russian performed unjustified acts to Ukranians. Well guess what? China have suffered by the hands of the Japanese in the Second World War just as Ukranians have with Russians. The severity might even be more than the upper Eurasia event.
But you instead completely ignored the fact and treated the Chinese nation of being pansy and that this whole protest was simply based on a piece of land. No, there are much more backstories to resonate with those protests.
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On September 18 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:27 Kazeyonoma wrote:On September 18 2012 02:06 reincremate wrote:On September 18 2012 01:49 Nizaris wrote:On September 18 2012 01:20 Azarkon wrote:On September 18 2012 00:47 Nizaris wrote:
thx for the infographic. So basically It was never Chinese. And China only wants it now because of the oil, like every1 knew already. It was never Japanese, either, until they annexed it during the process of imperial expansion. China's stance is that said imperial expansion was not legit, and so the islands are disputed and Japan has no unilateral right to nationalize them. China never had direct jurisdiction over the island, but there are Japanese maps showing that the islands were Chinese territory, and a Japanese admiral who admitted that he did not know whether they belonged to China prior to Japan's annexation. The bottom line is that until 1885, nobody lived on the island, and so no actual authority was enforceable. However, 1895, when Japan formally annexed the islands, happened to be when they formally annexed Taiwan as well. It strikes a raw nerve. thx now i understand a bit better how the Chinese even dare lay claim to something that obviously isn't theirs. The islands belong to neither Japan or China (or any other country). The U.S. unilaterally gave Japan ownership over the islands in 1971, one year before the start of normalized relations between U.S. and China. China and Taiwan have also unilaterally claimed ownership of the islands. None of these claims have any legitimacy. Land ownership laws and rules are completely arbitrary to begin with, but you can make a good argument (e.g., Locke) that the basis for property rights results from the labour exerted upon the land by individuals. Uninhabited and unexploited land thus belongs to no one, unless there is some other argument as to why it rightfully belongs to anyone or any nation (simply declaring that you own the islands or signing a piece of paper is meaningless). well if it's based on labour exerted, doesn't the original japanese family that owned it/built a factory on it 'own' it? Yeah sure, if you think Locke's argument is sound. If they're still there, then it's their's.
tbh i was just being facetious about it, but if 'true' then yes, japan did put up a bonito factory there, but it failed in 1940 and became uninhabited since, and continues to be that way, although 50 or so researchers do conduct science type things there mostly wildlife observation of moles and birds. and of course fishing around there by several nations (but that is considered international waters I assume).
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Korea vs Japan over Dokdo/Takeshima, currently controlled by Korea
Korean President visits the island -> Japan protests and proposes to bring the dispute to International Court of Justice (ICJ), which Korea refused
Japan vs China over Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, currently controlled by Japan
Japanese government officially buys the islands from the private owner-> China protests and riots begin
If China proposed to bring the dispute to ICJ, and Japan refused it, then Japan would/should be criticized for double-standard. Not that ICJ is completely fair, but it is better than taking over the islands by force if that's China's plan in future.
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On September 18 2012 03:50 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:38 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:23 Taku wrote:On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics. And then you realize that China had it just as bad if not worse than Ukraine, still wondering why Chinese people are pissed about people downplaying it? are you trolling or what? What a huge famine in Ukraine has to do with a territorial dispute over some islands with total area of 5 square km? Lol someone needs to knock some senses into you. The reason behind those events where people get jumped for having japanese merchandises is not only over the island dispute. Yes the island dispute might be catalyst that started the fire. But the oil itself was manifested by the collataral damage dealt by Japan to China in the Second World War. Now you being ignorant to those fact started to scorn at China and make it a joking matter. So Feartheguru make a remark to compare the incidents occurred during the time when Ukraine was still under the management of Russia and how the Russian performed unjustified acts to Ukranians. Well guess what? China have suffered by the hands of the Japanese in the Second World War just as Ukranians have with Russians. The severity might even be more than the upper Eurasia event. But you instead completely ignored the fact and treated the Chinese nation of being pansy and that this whole protest was simply based on a piece of land. No, there are much more backstories to resonate with those protests.
What is your point? That I should be ok with Chinese trashing Japanese over the events that took place over 60 years ago because my country suffered a lot too? Or Ukraininans have been spotted in some large scale hate crimes towards Russians lately?
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On September 18 2012 04:05 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:50 Xiphos wrote:On September 18 2012 03:38 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:23 Taku wrote:On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics. And then you realize that China had it just as bad if not worse than Ukraine, still wondering why Chinese people are pissed about people downplaying it? are you trolling or what? What a huge famine in Ukraine has to do with a territorial dispute over some islands with total area of 5 square km? Lol someone needs to knock some senses into you. The reason behind those events where people get jumped for having japanese merchandises is not only over the island dispute. Yes the island dispute might be catalyst that started the fire. But the oil itself was manifested by the collataral damage dealt by Japan to China in the Second World War. Now you being ignorant to those fact started to scorn at China and make it a joking matter. So Feartheguru make a remark to compare the incidents occurred during the time when Ukraine was still under the management of Russia and how the Russian performed unjustified acts to Ukranians. Well guess what? China have suffered by the hands of the Japanese in the Second World War just as Ukranians have with Russians. The severity might even be more than the upper Eurasia event. But you instead completely ignored the fact and treated the Chinese nation of being pansy and that this whole protest was simply based on a piece of land. No, there are much more backstories to resonate with those protests. What is your point? That I should be ok with Chinese trashing Japanese over the events that took place over 60 years ago because my country suffered a lot too? Or Ukraininans have been spotted in some large scale hate crimes towards Russians lately?
Educate yourself please, spend some time reading this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute
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On September 18 2012 04:05 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:50 Xiphos wrote:On September 18 2012 03:38 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:23 Taku wrote:On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote:On September 18 2012 03:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 18 2012 03:13 Cheerio wrote:
That pic with demand to boycott japanese goods on a Toyota is hilarious. He bought it before Japan got bitchy? China was ok with Japan owning those isles since WW2 and now they woke up and realised it's theirs... When Russians starved you guys you were ok with it, 50 years later you wake up and realized they committed genocide... hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics. And then you realize that China had it just as bad if not worse than Ukraine, still wondering why Chinese people are pissed about people downplaying it? are you trolling or what? What a huge famine in Ukraine has to do with a territorial dispute over some islands with total area of 5 square km? Lol someone needs to knock some senses into you. The reason behind those events where people get jumped for having japanese merchandises is not only over the island dispute. Yes the island dispute might be catalyst that started the fire. But the oil itself was manifested by the collataral damage dealt by Japan to China in the Second World War. Now you being ignorant to those fact started to scorn at China and make it a joking matter. So Feartheguru make a remark to compare the incidents occurred during the time when Ukraine was still under the management of Russia and how the Russian performed unjustified acts to Ukranians. Well guess what? China have suffered by the hands of the Japanese in the Second World War just as Ukranians have with Russians. The severity might even be more than the upper Eurasia event. But you instead completely ignored the fact and treated the Chinese nation of being pansy and that this whole protest was simply based on a piece of land. No, there are much more backstories to resonate with those protests. What is your point? That I should be ok with Chinese trashing Japanese over the events that took place over 60 years ago because my country suffered a lot too? Or Ukraininans have been spotted in some large scale hate crimes towards Russians lately?
To be understanding, to open that mind of yours. You need to look at things through someone else' scope.
Imagine someone forced your grandmother to do unspeakable things, objectify her, and give command only to kill her afterward but to never apologize and glorify those who have done these things as a sport.
Yeah that's how the Chinese thinks.
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I'm just not understanding this whole thing. is it about the islands? or about the past? are they using the past as a reason to use these islands as a catalyst for hate? I mean, what's going on really. From what I have read and researched, the paper trail leads to japan owning the islands back in 1895 when they annexed it and china did nothing. in 1945 the islands were given to the US temporarily as part of the end of ww2, and again china did nothing (i believe PRC was asked and they said, nah have it US), then oil was found in the 60s-70s in that area, and in 1972, US gave it back to japan, and THEN china and taiwan said, nope, it's ours. even though historically, both in 1895, and 1942, they seem to have showed no signs of ownership. and even then, they never did anything about it after 1972 and instead opted to just 'agree to disagree' and just let things slide until now, when japan decided to nationalize the island from it's long term private ownership, suddenly the arguments fly out that the islands belong to china? wut? look i'm chinese, and even I think this is weird because paper wise, it's japan's, so where's the argument on china's ground. that they owned it back in 1400's? yeah well it got annexed in 1895, just like so many countries were annexed or given up throughout history. France owned vietnam for a long time, and no longer does, they can't just suddenly say well, we used to own that island outside of vietnam, now we want it back. and neither can the british claim to take sri lanka because they once owned india.
The amount of hate coming from this, when there's no grounds is already astounding, yes, the japanese did terrible terrible things in ww2 to china, but countries have done terrible terrible things to each other whenever war is out. no country is absolved from this during war time, and it is 100% bad. So fight that, prevent it, demand that, but you can't compound two issues just because it's convenient for you. it shows a lack of intelligence, and tact, and it also shows you're being manipulated by the puppeteers who want you to believe what they want you to believe, while they do shit behind the scenes. I am rather ashamed of my own people who are doing this, do the people who live in japan now, who manufacture goods now, who do everything the same as chinese people do now, have anything to do with what happened in 1895? or even 1945? yet this hate continues. why? Are we not past these simple minded disputes that tore us down as a species in the past? have we learned nothing from our past, and only seek to repeat our failures again? This is dumb. even if violence doesn't happen from it (thank god if so), it just shows poorly we really understand each other AS HUMAN BEINGS.
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ugh makes me really sad to see all this hate over such trivial things. The worst part is these violent protests. Smashing cars? burning flags? seriously? Leave this dispute to the politicians and let them solve it with civilised negotiations. Im all for peaceful protesting, but this is just a bunch of frustrated or misguided people working out their anger.
I guess there are just nasty people in this world, and we have to somehow cope with that. Its sad, really sad.
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EPT
