EPTPro-China, Anti-Japan Protests - Page 52
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Zinnwaldite
Norway1567 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:01 Caihead wrote: People who are saying China "doesn't accept" these apologies need to stop arguing on a nit pick. It's not that China doesn't accept the apologies, it's that these apologies are nullified time and time again by the visiting of the shrines every. single. year. By prime ministers, presidents, head of political departments, and so on. Germany did it right, they apologized, and stepped away from glorifying nazi war criminals or worshiping them in a religious format or giving it official government endorsement. You don't see Angela Merkel participating in neo-nazi parades every year do you? You don't see a German political party making it a party slogan or appeal to the masses to justify past atrocities do you? It's a bit of a shame that the actions of prime ministers, presidents and those guys should matter at all.. It's always sad when the people have to pay for the shit the administrators cover themselves in at times.. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:16 Zinnwaldite wrote: It's a bit of a shame that the actions of prime ministers, presidents and those guys should matter at all.. It's always sad when the people have to pay for the shit the administrators cover themselves in at times.. ... They are supposed to represent the mentality or will of the people aren't they? Especially in a democratic country such as Japan? What's that supposed to mean? Ofcourse we have to gauge societies by the members of society who are are most influential, because we are forced into a position where we have to since they have the biggest impact on our lives. | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Read about Youth bulge Theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid#Youth_bulge Consider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy Doesn't matter if it´s about some islands or Muhammed or Assad you will find some male 16-30 year olds to riot about it. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:01 Caihead wrote: People who are saying China "doesn't accept" these apologies need to stop arguing on a nit pick. It's not that China doesn't accept the apologies, it's that these apologies are nullified time and time again by the visiting of the shrines every. single. year. By prime ministers, presidents, head of political departments, and so on. Germany did it right, they apologized, and stepped away from glorifying nazi war criminals or worshiping them in a religious format or giving it official government endorsement. You don't see Angela Merkel participating in neo-nazi parades every year do you? You don't see a German political party making it a party slogan or appeal to the masses to justify past atrocities do you? They don't visit it every year and it's not mandatory or official. Nobody worships them in a religious context. One cabinet member visited the shrine this year over the pleading of his own party and prime minister not to go. The Japanese prime minister has not visited it since 2007 (they've had 5). Since so many people seem to regard Germany with so much respect, I'm curious - what exactly did Germany do that makes them a model of repentance? | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On September 18 2012 03:22 Cheerio wrote: hope somebody starves you for a bit so you learn not to joke about such topics. Did I hit a nerve? Good, maybe next time you'll use your head before saying stupid things. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:31 coverpunch wrote: They don't visit it every year and it's not mandatory or official. Nobody worships them in a religious context. One cabinet member visited the shrine this year over the pleading of his own party and prime minister not to go. The Japanese prime minister has not visited it since 2007 (they've had 5). Since so many people seem to regard Germany with so much respect, I'm curious - what exactly did Germany do that makes them a model of repentance? Willy Brandt's apology and kneeling down in Poland's holocaust memorial in 1970 is a pretty striking historical event (Warschauer Kniefall), and so have generations of German leaders. Germany has offered official apologies for atrocities aside from apologies for war. Germany has paid out in tens of billions in reparations to countries and holocaust survivors. If you want to compare and contrast with Japan, the biggest point is that German leaders, parties, and official dogma has rarely ever shown any signs especially in recent history (past decades) which would nullify past apologies and stances. The amount of legitimacy which is given to neo-nazis (which would incite public outrage with in Germany itself) is different from the amount of legitimacy which is seemingly given to denials of atrocities committed by Japan (which is present in Japan's educational system, its media system, and diplomatic systems). You could argue that this is simply better public relations from Germany, but public appearances constitute a great part of politics and diplomatic relations. Historically also because Germany was broken up post WWII to West and East Germany, the views and opinions of the public and subsequent independent media created by the people were allowed to travel with in different sectors of the world. The views and opinions expressed by community leaders and average citizens were able to travel to the countries which Germany negatively affected. Japan's relations with China were too strained post WWII and such communications were largely non-existent even to this day, striking examples of ultranationalist leaders in Japan didn't help matters either. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:13 Caihead wrote: Willy Brandt's apology and kneeling down in Poland's holocaust memorial in 1970 is a pretty striking historical event (Warschauer Kniefall), and so have generations of German leaders. Germany has offered official apologies for atrocities aside from apologies for war. Germany has paid out in tens of billions in reparations to countries and holocaust survivors. If you want to compare and contrast with Japan, the biggest point is that German leaders, parties, and official dogma has rarely ever shown any signs especially in recent history (past decades) which would nullify past apologies and stances. The among of legitimacy which is given to neo-nazis (which would incite public outrage with in Germany itself) is different from the amount of legitimacy which is seemingly given to denials of atrocities committed by Japan (which is present in Japan's educational system, its media system, and diplomatic systems). You could argue that this is simply better public relations from Germany, but public appearances constitute a great part of politics and diplomatic relations. Historically also because Germany was broken up post WWII to West and East Germany, the views and opinions of the public and subsequent independent media created by the people were allowed to travel with in different sectors of the world. The views and opinions expressed by community leaders and average citizens were able to travel to the countries which Germany negatively affected. Japan's relations with China were too strained post WWII and such communications were largely non-existent even to this day, striking examples of ultranationalist leaders in Japan didn't help matters either. The high profile of figures such as Ishitara in Japanese politics is certainly a major difference between postwar Japan and Germany. Imagine a Holocaust denier / Nazi apologist being allowed to run for - and to be successfully elected as - the governor of Berlin. That is effectively what Ishitara stands for in China and Korea, and given that he is also the trigger for the latest set of riots, his untouchability in Japanese electoral politics is troubling and reflects poorly on the idea that the population of Japan is not responsible at all for the tension. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:24 Azarkon wrote: The high profile of figures such as Ishitara in Japanese politics is certainly a major difference between postwar Japan and Germany. Imagine a Holocaust denier / Nazi apologist being allowed to run for - and successfully elected as - the governor of Berlin. What makes it more contentious to China also is that Japan is a self-proclaimed democratic nation with a democratic systems greatly influenced by the United States and its western allies. And as such either the views of these high profile figures did not represent the people (the democratic system in Japan failed) or that they did in fact represent the people. Chinese nationalist propaganda capitalized on this for sure, and in the majority of cases misleadingly so as it is clear in recent years that there is great back lash against ultranationalist view points and denials with in Japan's own citizens, but the historical - and ongoing- facts remain. | ||
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Shotaro
Canada13 Posts
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heroyi
United States1064 Posts
S.korea historians visited Japan and looked at a couple of statues and studied the education there. These koreans were interested in an admiral named Yi Sun Shin (rough english spelling of name and birth of my username) . thus the trip was related about the impact he had in Japan The man is famous (even on currency much like Lincoln in US) because he helped in defeating the Japanese from invading Korea and ultimately China way back in teh 15/16 the century (known as imjin war/ 7 year war). Never lost a battle, always outnumbered (famous battle of Myongyang? where 13 ships vs 500~), and out gunned (Japan had guns and sword skills, korea had arrows and spears). Anyway this was such a humiliating war (as you can imagine) that they, Japan, lied explicitly in the nation. There is no mention of the admiral's skill but instead replaced with memorials of commemorating the dead soldiers to a "storm." In schools they don't explain how the admiral was a brilliant tactician but instead said other things (storms, disease etc...) was the main contribution to their defeat... Japan doesn't know how to admit defeat and are not very graceful at it. WW2 is pretty bad too (although US was pretty damn ignorant with the whole internment camp for the US-japan citizens) What Kwark said is very dead on. I am not condemning all japanese people but the government...well they can be pretty bad | ||
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calderon
95 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:16 Zinnwaldite wrote: It's a bit of a shame that the actions of prime ministers, presidents and those guys should matter at all.. It's always sad when the people have to pay for the shit the administrators cover themselves in at times.. But what kind of public allows this shit to happen. The fact that government and public officials and political parties making outlandish statements glorifying war criminals is accepted is a poor reflection on the Japanese people. That's why so much anger stems towards the Japanese public as well for being apathetic and hoping to ignore it until it goes away (all the survivors are over 80 years old now..) Also, ask the average Japanese person about incidents from WW2. They are painfully ignorant. This is from some one who has a few close Japanese friends (from a nice part of Tokyo) and tbh I felt sad that they had such a shady knowledge of history. E.g. they didn't even know Japan colonized Korea.. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:37 heroyi wrote: Anyway this was such a humiliating war (as you can imagine) that they, Japan, lied explicitly in the nation. There is no mention of the admiral's skill but instead replaced with memorials of commemorating the dead soldiers to a "storm." In schools they don't explain how the admiral was a brilliant tactician but instead said other things (storms, disease etc...) was the main contribution to their defeat... I'm pretty sure that all the serious modern historians take this 13 vs 500 ships with a grain of salt. Japanese defeat could be explained in the same way than the Spanish Armada. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:24 Azarkon wrote: The high profile of figures such as Ishitara in Japanese politics is certainly a major difference between postwar Japan and Germany. Imagine a Holocaust denier / Nazi apologist being allowed to run for - and to be successfully elected as - the governor of Berlin. That is effectively what Ishitara stands for in China and Korea, and given that he is also the trigger for the latest set of riots, his untouchability in Japanese electoral politics is troubling and reflects poorly on the idea that the population of Japan is not responsible at all for the tension. But Germany HAS a far-right-wing party that has a minority voice in the government. We just don't notice them because the rest of the EU doesn't throw a shit fit every time they say something dumb (unlike, say, France's Le Pen). The real difference between Germany and Japan seem to be twofold. One is this perverse notion that Japan wasn't "punished enough" after World War II. If Japan had been cut in half instead of Korea, we might be more sympathetic (as it is, South Koreans should be very ambivalent about that). The other is just politics. If Europeans want something from the Germans and don't get it, the Nazi grumbling will come back (like this. Just like in this case, the Chinese want to take something that Japan refuses to give up. | ||
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calderon
95 Posts
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:36 Shotaro wrote: Wait, I kind of don't get this, why are the Chinese fighting over an island that is was already officially owned by a Japanese man, with Japan? How is that relevant? If the U.S. took over Haiti and gave it to Obama it'd be "officially" owned by an American man, With America. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On September 18 2012 03:15 MstrJinbo wrote: Gonna correct the nitpick a bit. General Wu Sangui defected and opened the gates of the great wall to the Manchurians and not the Mongols. He later tried to set himself up as emperor of china, but that didn't really work out for him. You are correct, that did occur in Ming China vs the Manchus.. However, I was talking about the events occurred in Jin China vs the Mongols, where the generals who were part of the former Liao and didn't like their new Jurchen rulers all that much decided to defect to the Mongols. Pardon me for the confusion. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:48 calderon wrote: BUT EVERYONE KNOWS THE WRONGS OF NAZI GERMANY. people do not know this of Imperialistic Japan. yes you can always laugh it off it happened 70 years ago, but when atrocities have been committed and basically everyone looks on Japan as the saints of Asia in the western world, it fucks people off, especially the older generations. what. that's just poor education or people not learning. I am very aware of their wrong doings, the raping of nanking and other things. watch farewell my concubine, etc. i dunno but being the only nation to have nuclear weapons used on them but TWICE seems like some pretty harsh 'punishment' as well. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote: this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours. This is historically false. Do you not remember Tibet and Taiwan? Or the border incident against India? The skirmish against Russia? Even the battle in 1974 where Chinese ships took some still disputed islands from the soon to be gone South Vietnamese government? You are strawmanning an inexistant Chinese expansionism as well. The common denominator from these incidents is that China only fight for what she considers hers historically. From example, although they could have went much further against India, they stopped where they considered to be the border and returned all the captured equipment to the Indians. | ||
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