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On September 18 2012 07:37 heroyi wrote:
Watched a documentary on something similar to this:
S.korea historians visited Japan and looked at a couple of statues and studied the education there. These koreans were interested in an admiral named Yi Sun Shin (rough english spelling of name and birth of my username) . thus the trip was related about the impact he had in Japan
The man is famous (even on currency much like Lincoln in US) because he helped in defeating the Japanese from invading Korea and ultimately China way back in teh 15/16 the century (known as imjin war/ 7 year war). Never lost a battle, always outnumbered (famous battle of Myongyang? where 13 ships vs 500~), and out gunned (Japan had guns and sword skills, korea had arrows and spears).
Anyway this was such a humiliating war (as you can imagine) that they, Japan, lied explicitly in the nation. There is no mention of the admiral's skill but instead replaced with memorials of commemorating the dead soldiers to a "storm." In schools they don't explain how the admiral was a brilliant tactician but instead said other things (storms, disease etc...) was the main contribution to their defeat...
Japan doesn't know how to admit defeat and are not very graceful at it. WW2 is pretty bad too (although US was pretty damn ignorant with the whole internment camp for the US-japan citizens)
What Kwark said is very dead on. I am not condemning all japanese people but the government...well they can be pretty bad
Oh, everybody glosses over the not-so-nice parts of their history. British schools celebrate the story of the Spanish Armada while the Spanish also make excuses or ignore it altogether. American schools go on and on about the Revolutionary War and how it symbolized the freedom and liberty of the human spirit, while the Brits grumble that it was a stupid rebellion and America only won because of the bloody French. The West has a kind of collective amnesia about their imperialist past.
I would agree that Japan is not as sensitive about the awful mistakes they've made in the past as they should be. But everybody uses education to imbue a sense of national pride in students.
EDIT: I will say that it is a disgrace when Japanese politicians deny that crimes happened altogether. But I don't think that is representative of the opinion of the Japanese public.
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This might not really have anything to do with the discussion, but people in the West need to understand things are so complex... Think about in Europe alone there are so many different ethnic backgrounds, french, german etc.. but when people think Asia they just think Chinese, Japanese etc.. but think about how big some of these countries are... within these nations (Esp. China) are many different ethnicities with significant populations (Han Chinese - the majority, Manchus, Zhuang etc).
In regards to this issue theres even the fact that Ryukyuan people (mostly in Okinawa) who inhabit the islands closest to Senkaku/Diaoyu generally have an anti-Japanese resentment. correct me if i'm wrong with regards to this
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On September 18 2012 07:44 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 07:24 Azarkon wrote:On September 18 2012 07:13 Caihead wrote:On September 18 2012 06:31 coverpunch wrote:On September 18 2012 06:01 Caihead wrote:
People who are saying China "doesn't accept" these apologies need to stop arguing on a nit pick. It's not that China doesn't accept the apologies, it's that these apologies are nullified time and time again by the visiting of the shrines every. single. year. By prime ministers, presidents, head of political departments, and so on. Germany did it right, they apologized, and stepped away from glorifying nazi war criminals or worshiping them in a religious format or giving it official government endorsement. You don't see Angela Merkel participating in neo-nazi parades every year do you? You don't see a German political party making it a party slogan or appeal to the masses to justify past atrocities do you? They don't visit it every year and it's not mandatory or official. Nobody worships them in a religious context. One cabinet member visited the shrine this year over the pleading of his own party and prime minister not to go. The Japanese prime minister has not visited it since 2007 (they've had 5). Since so many people seem to regard Germany with so much respect, I'm curious - what exactly did Germany do that makes them a model of repentance? Willy Brandt's apology and kneeling down in Poland's holocaust memorial in 1970 is a pretty striking historical event (Warschauer Kniefall), and so have generations of German leaders. Germany has offered official apologies for atrocities aside from apologies for war. Germany has paid out in tens of billions in reparations to countries and holocaust survivors. If you want to compare and contrast with Japan, the biggest point is that German leaders, parties, and official dogma has rarely ever shown any signs especially in recent history (past decades) which would nullify past apologies and stances. The among of legitimacy which is given to neo-nazis (which would incite public outrage with in Germany itself) is different from the amount of legitimacy which is seemingly given to denials of atrocities committed by Japan (which is present in Japan's educational system, its media system, and diplomatic systems). You could argue that this is simply better public relations from Germany, but public appearances constitute a great part of politics and diplomatic relations. Historically also because Germany was broken up post WWII to West and East Germany, the views and opinions of the public and subsequent independent media created by the people were allowed to travel with in different sectors of the world. The views and opinions expressed by community leaders and average citizens were able to travel to the countries which Germany negatively affected. Japan's relations with China were too strained post WWII and such communications were largely non-existent even to this day, striking examples of ultranationalist leaders in Japan didn't help matters either. The high profile of figures such as Ishitara in Japanese politics is certainly a major difference between postwar Japan and Germany. Imagine a Holocaust denier / Nazi apologist being allowed to run for - and to be successfully elected as - the governor of Berlin. That is effectively what Ishitara stands for in China and Korea, and given that he is also the trigger for the latest set of riots, his untouchability in Japanese electoral politics is troubling and reflects poorly on the idea that the population of Japan is not responsible at all for the tension. But Germany HAS a far-right-wing party that has a minority voice in the government. We just don't notice them because the rest of the EU doesn't throw a shit fit every time they say something dumb (unlike, say, France's Le Pen). The real difference between Germany and Japan seem to be twofold. One is this perverse notion that Japan wasn't "punished enough" after World War II. If Japan had been cut in half instead of Korea, we might be more sympathetic (as it is, South Koreans should be very ambivalent about that). The other is just politics. If Europeans want something from the Germans and don't get it, the Nazi grumbling will come back (like this. Just like in this case, the Chinese want to take something that Japan refuses to give up.
Germany has a far-right party, but they have virtually no voice and no ability to affect policy.
Governor Shintaro Ishitara had enough voice and enough ability to trigger this entire incident - it was his gambit to 'buy out and develop' the islands that resulted in the Japanese government's decision to nationalize them. That's a huge difference.
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On September 17 2012 23:29 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 22:37 Sickkiee wrote:
Even if Japan got on their knee's and begged for forgiveness - 70% of the populous of that time would not forgive.
Who would when they just raped, tortured, massacred and destroyed the whole city.
This whole thing about 'asking for an apology' is laughable. How is this a valid argument? 'The crimes were too serious so what's the point of apologising properly?' WTF At least contrition would be a start. The list of vague half-apologies getting posted by Orek is a joke. Show some genuine regret; specifically accept and recognise what was done. Then reflect it in your actions and words. The Japanese posters in this thread continue to show why China and Korea still harbours such hatred for them. You just seem indifferent to the appalling nature of the crimes and say it's not such a big deal. Maybe you're not being taught the full history? That said it doesn't justify the violent protests and destruction of property but the attitude of every Japanese poster i've seen in this thread is pretty callous. If Germans posted that the Jews should get over it and that a full apology isn't really necessary there'd be an uproar. If German historians started drastically revising the deaths from concentration camps saying there's not enough evidence, the shit would hit the fan. I don't care how 'sacred' the Shinto shrine is, it's already been defiled by resting the remains of Class A war criminals in it. Take them out and dump them in a landfill. Surely it's disrespectful to every other soldier enshrined there to be alongside the perpertrators of full-blown atrocities.
Rofl suddenly words have enough meaning to repay for all the crimes the Japanese people of the past have done?
Ya, let's all generalize Japanese people as dogs and cowards because of the actions of a few (government not apologizing). If you knew anything about the people of Japan and ask them about the Nanking incident, most are either oblivious of the fact is happened or are really remorseful (99% anyway).
I am indifferent. I am not even Japanese, yet am a descendent of someone who was in Poland (great grandfather, grandfather and father were all in WW2 Poland...).
My dad still has a bit of hate towards Russia and Germany for what they did, but that's only to be expected. Things like that cannot be forgotten so easily, even if you apologize every day.
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On September 18 2012 07:57 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
This is historically false. Do you not remember Tibet and Taiwan? Or the border incident against India? The skirmish against Russia? Even the battle in 1974 where Chinese ships took some still disputed islands from the soon to be gone South Vietnamese government? You are strawmanning an inexistant Chinese expansionism as well. The common denominator from these incidents is that China only fight for what she considers hers historically. From example, although they could have went much further against India, they stopped where they considered to be the border and returned all the captured equipment to the Indians.
On the other hand, look up the nine-dash line. There is a general feeling that China makes their claims up.
+ Show Spoiler + No other country in the world makes up claims in order to grab the natural resources of another, right?
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On September 18 2012 07:57 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
This is historically false. Do you not remember Tibet and Taiwan? Or the border incident against India? The skirmish against Russia? Even the battle in 1974 where Chinese ships took some still disputed islands from the soon to be gone South Vietnamese government? You are strawmanning an inexistant Chinese expansionism as well. The common denominator from these incidents is that China only fight for what she considers hers historically. From example, although they could have went much further against India, they stopped where they considered to be the border and returned all the captured equipment to the Indians.
I'm going to preface this comment saying I'm a Chinese-Canadian person myself, just living in Japan.
By that logic, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mongolia, Korea, parts of the Phillipines should all belong to China because it was "historically" theirs and therefore the expansionism is justified. It's a ridiculous standard when China calls out Imperial Japan for their conquering of other nations, when China is doing exactly the same thing right now with the other ASEAN countries.
At least recognize it for what it is. Japan used a similar excuse when they were building their east asian sphere. It was "rightfully ours" they said.
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On September 18 2012 07:57 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
This is historically false. Do you not remember Tibet and Taiwan? Or the border incident against India? The skirmish against Russia? Even the battle in 1974 where Chinese ships took some still disputed islands from the soon to be gone South Vietnamese government? You are strawmanning an inexistant Chinese expansionism as well. The common denominator from these incidents is that China only fight for what she considers hers historically. From example, although they could have went much further against India, they stopped where they considered to be the border and returned all the captured equipment to the Indians.
This may have been the case back then, but not since they're becoming a superpower. Look at their ridiculous sea claims.
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On September 18 2012 08:19 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 07:57 RavenLoud wrote:On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
This is historically false. Do you not remember Tibet and Taiwan? Or the border incident against India? The skirmish against Russia? Even the battle in 1974 where Chinese ships took some still disputed islands from the soon to be gone South Vietnamese government? You are strawmanning an inexistant Chinese expansionism as well. The common denominator from these incidents is that China only fight for what she considers hers historically. From example, although they could have went much further against India, they stopped where they considered to be the border and returned all the captured equipment to the Indians. I'm going to preface this comment saying I'm a Chinese-Canadian person myself, just living in Japan. By that logic, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mongolia, Korea, parts of the Phillipines should all belong to China because it was "historically" theirs and therefore the expansionism is justified. It's a ridiculous standard when China calls out Imperial Japan for their conquering of other nations, when China is doing exactly the same thing right now with the other ASEAN countries. At least recognize it for what it is. Japan used a similar excuse when they were building their east asian sphere. It was "rightfully ours" they said.
I don't think that these island disputes are comparable to occupying all these countries outright. China are not claiming that Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea are theirs, although I wouldn't be surprised if they retain a colonial attitude towards these areas, it's not exactly the same as Japan at all. They are just making dubious claims on some islands, not committing genocide. Other than Taiwan, China did not demonstrate any desire to annex these countries.
On another note, Chinese minorities owns so much of SEA financially that it's not even funny. These countries are pretty darn racists towards the ethnic Chinese for understandable but still regrettable reasons.
@EtherealBladeThe Chinese sea claims are very questionable, but they did maintain the same stance for a long time before they are becoming a superpower.
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On September 18 2012 08:19 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 07:57 RavenLoud wrote:On September 18 2012 03:01 CandyHunterz wrote:
this is typical of a growing china. 50 years ago china wouldn't dare to even make any claims towards any land but today china is strong and powerful and suddenly they just start to have conflicts with EVERY single one of its neighbours.
This is historically false. Do you not remember Tibet and Taiwan? Or the border incident against India? The skirmish against Russia? Even the battle in 1974 where Chinese ships took some still disputed islands from the soon to be gone South Vietnamese government? You are strawmanning an inexistant Chinese expansionism as well. The common denominator from these incidents is that China only fight for what she considers hers historically. From example, although they could have went much further against India, they stopped where they considered to be the border and returned all the captured equipment to the Indians. This may have been the case back then, but not since they're becoming a superpower. Look at their ridiculous sea claims.
Hardly ridiculous. Hardly inconceivable either.
To provide an example would be something like the United States sending military ships to "protect" (from god knows what) newly discovered Brazilian oil reserves. Needless to say, Brazil didn't take kind to such matters and the US literally had 0 ground to stand on short of the Monroe Doctrine. Yet, they did it anyways.
Now look at the situation here where there are historical basis (even if complex) for Chinese claims to those islands, how exactly are these claims ridiculous?
Just glossing over this thread leads me to believe that the vast majority of posters have no clue about Chinese history or culture for that matter. Like someone said earlier, perspective.
As for the times be changing cause China is a superpower now, welcome to mainstream thinking....in the (late) 1980s...where they predicted conflicts should China grow....like it did in the 90s and 00s...but no conflict (even over something as contentious as Taiwan)....then the main proponent of that line of thinking admitted to basing his claims off of European models...good one.
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You said it better than I could Judicator. However I remain skeptical to many Chinese sea claims even though I fully understand the geographical importance to China and their shipping lanes. IMO they should return the Paracel islands to Vietnam though I doubt that it would make Vietnam hate China any less.
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Currently lined up to be going to Japan on a study abroad trip... Really hope this passes over quick and painlessly.
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On September 18 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:
You said it better than I could Judicator. However I remain skeptical to many Chinese sea claims even though I fully understand the geographical importance to China and their shipping lanes. IMO they should return the Paracel islands to Vietnam though I doubt that it would make Vietnam hate China any less.
Also the Paracel islands have been part of China historically.
edit. PRC stations in Woody islands after the Civil war.
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On September 18 2012 01:21 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:On September 17 2012 12:51 Rebornlife wrote:
Everyone knows if this continues to escalate China will turn into exactly what the op posted:
A mass grave
INB4 China and japan declare war,
NK joins in with china and attacks SK for the hell of it,
SK attacks NK,
Then the rest of the world painfully takes sides
NK and China end up barren wasteland
WW3
On a serious note, hopefully this doesn't go any further, because wars have been started over a lot less...
What a drama queen. The only reason this diplomatic shitfest is alive is because both of the two governments are tacitly endorsing it. Japan's election cycle is coming and they want to deflect from their tanking economy and foster faux nationalism to gain more centralized power. China's government is going though a once every decade or so power transition from Hu Jintao to Xi Jinping as well as a seriously slow of the Chinese economy. Both just want to pull the wool over the majority of their own populaces' eyes long enough for them to make contingency plans for the future. To a degree South Korea is doing this as well via the hilarious argument about Dokdo... which no country in the international community believes is part of Japan, but Japan itself. All of these countries' politicians are working with each other to allow utterly pointless minor issues color their national interest until they simply deem it no longer necessary and return to the status quo... Sorry for being a bit off topic, but is this true? The only thing I really know about it is that Japan proposed to bring this case to the International Court of Justice, but South Korea refuses.
The only reason Japan wants to bring it to the International Court of Justice is because one of the most influential Judges is Japanese... if it had a neutral judge they wouldn't dare.
Just about all the records available mark it as an island nobody wanted but an old Korean kingdom noticed it was a haven for Japanese pirates and sent navy ships to occupy/patrol it so Pirates couldn't use it as a staging point for port village raids.
In fact, if you look at the majority of Korean records it's often noted as a nuisance. It doesn't officially exist in old Japanese maps or texts at all really. It's usually noted that it's beyond the "northern", Japanese old northern was western, limits of Japan itself.
The only reason Korean politicians are willing to back it at all is because they're cowards that will only pick a fight they can win 
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On September 18 2012 08:52 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Currently lined up to be going to Japan on a study abroad trip... Really hope this passes over quick and painlessly.
If you're only going to Japan and not China, I don't think there's anything you need to worry about.
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On September 18 2012 09:33 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 08:52 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Currently lined up to be going to Japan on a study abroad trip... Really hope this passes over quick and painlessly. If you're only going to Japan and not China, I don't think there's anything you need to worry about.
Even if you were, gotta nothing to worry at either. Well, as long as you don't own a PS3 or something.
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On September 18 2012 09:06 FindMeInKenya wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:
You said it better than I could Judicator. However I remain skeptical to many Chinese sea claims even though I fully understand the geographical importance to China and their shipping lanes. IMO they should return the Paracel islands to Vietnam though I doubt that it would make Vietnam hate China any less.
Also the Paracel islands have been part of China historically. edit. PRC stations in Woody islands after the Civil war.
A country can't claim everything that was at one point in history under their territorial control. You don't currently live in Southeast Asia so you have no idea just how aggressive China has been in trying to assert control over parts of this region, not dissimlar to how Japan behaved in the early 20th century.
Japanese atrocities in the first half of the 20th century should not be forgotten and there is much that the Japanese government can do to improve relations with countries that were once invaded by Japan during WWII. But Japan is of no military threat. Although right-wing politicians do retain a certain amount of influence in Japanese politics, unlike during the 1930s, the vast majority of Japanese civilians have no intention of going to war and there is a strong peace movement in Japan. And economically, Japan does not have the capability of going to war. China on the other hand, should be watched very closely. The balance of power within the CCP between the civilian leadership and the PLA is a shaky one. If the PLA gains the upper hand, a major conflict could ensue in Asia. There are very worrying signs.
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On September 18 2012 09:39 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:06 FindMeInKenya wrote:On September 18 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:
You said it better than I could Judicator. However I remain skeptical to many Chinese sea claims even though I fully understand the geographical importance to China and their shipping lanes. IMO they should return the Paracel islands to Vietnam though I doubt that it would make Vietnam hate China any less.
Also the Paracel islands have been part of China historically. edit. PRC stations in Woody islands after the Civil war. A country can't claim everything that was at one point historically under their territorial control. You don't currently live in Southeast Asia so you have no idea just how aggressive China has been in trying to assert control over parts of this region, not dissimlar to how Japan behaved in the early 20th century. Japanese atrocities in the first half of the 20th century should not be forgotten and there is much that the Japanese government can do to improve relations with countries that were once invaded by Japan during WWII. But Japan is of no military threat. Although right-wing politicians do retain a certain amount of influence in Japanese politics, unlike during the 1930s, the vast majority of Japanese civilians have no intention of going to war and there is a strong peace movement in Japan. And economically, Japan does not have the capability of going to war. China on the other hand, should be watched very closely. The balance of power within the CCP between the civilian leadership and the PLA is a shaky one. If the PLA gains the upper hand, a major conflict could ensue in Asia. There are very worrying signs.
Idk man PLA gets paid very handsomely by the CCP and the generals usually get bonus with hookers on top. The government have even brothels just for soldiers.
PLA is CCP's lapdog. But there might be cased where the CCP's central power get conflicted but that is highly unlikely.
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On September 18 2012 09:39 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 09:06 FindMeInKenya wrote:On September 18 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:
You said it better than I could Judicator. However I remain skeptical to many Chinese sea claims even though I fully understand the geographical importance to China and their shipping lanes. IMO they should return the Paracel islands to Vietnam though I doubt that it would make Vietnam hate China any less.
Also the Paracel islands have been part of China historically. edit. PRC stations in Woody islands after the Civil war. A country can't claim everything that was at one point historically under their territorial control. You don't currently live in Southeast Asia so you have no idea just how aggressive China has been in trying to assert control over parts of this region, not dissimlar to how Japan behaved in the early 20th century. Japanese atrocities in the first half of the 20th century should not be forgotten and there is much that the Japanese government can do to improve relations with countries that were once invaded by Japan during WWII. But Japan is of no military threat. Although right-wing politicians do retain a certain amount of influence in Japanese politics, unlike during the 1930s, the vast majority of Japanese civilians have no intention of going to war and there is a strong peace movement in Japan. And economically, Japan does not have the capability of going to war. China on the other hand, should be watched very closely. The balance of power within the CCP between the civilian leadership and the PLA is a shaky one. If the PLA gains the upper hand, a major conflict could ensue in Asia. There are very worrying signs.
-.-
the PLA is a wing of the CCP, as the CCP picks and appoints every member of the PLA. Everything you said is B. S. You have to understand that China is ruled by the Communist PARTY. The civilian government is picked and directly controled by the PARTY. The military is picked and directly controlled by the PARTY. Hell the head of the military doesn't even actually run the military, he's more of an international figure head. The military actually reports to representatives from the PARTY.
Edit: i suggest you read this article about the structure of china's political power structure:
http://chovanec.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/primer-on-chinas-leadership-transition/
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I have an honest question. How can an apology truly be contrite and sincere when the people issuing the apology did not personally witness or do the act that is being apologized for?
How much sincerity can be expressed when apOlogizing for something that you personally did not do?
I am just curious because a lot of people say that the Japanese apologies are hollow. Well in principle everythig is meaningless anyway since the perpetrators have mostly all died. Some of the older soldiers have come out on tv programs to say that they are very sorry. And very emotionally too. Shouldn't that be way more important than what politicians who have nothing to do with ww2?
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On September 18 2012 10:46 levelping wrote:
I have an honest question. How can an apology truly be contrite and sincere when the people issuing the apology did not personally witness or do the act that is being apologized for?
How much sincerity can be expressed when apOlogizing for something that you personally did not do?
I am just curious because a lot of people say that the Japanese apologies are hollow. Well in principle everythig is meaningless anyway since the perpetrators have mostly all died. Some of the older soldiers have come out on tv programs to say that they are very sorry. And very emotionally too. Shouldn't that be way more important than what politicians who have nothing to do with ww2?
The apologies are hollow because the rhetoric coming from the Japanese leadership is inconsistent, in addition to their conduct not measuring up to their words.
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EPT
