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On September 18 2012 10:46 levelping wrote:
I have an honest question. How can an apology truly be contrite and sincere when the people issuing the apology did not personally witness or do the act that is being apologized for?
How much sincerity can be expressed when apOlogizing for something that you personally did not do?
I am just curious because a lot of people say that the Japanese apologies are hollow. Well in principle everythig is meaningless anyway since the perpetrators have mostly all died. Some of the older soldiers have come out on tv programs to say that they are very sorry. And very emotionally too. Shouldn't that be way more important than what politicians who have nothing to do with ww2?
The only time sincere apologies and acts of contrition had a shot of happening was directly after the war. It didn't happen, and the result is what you have today - mutual hatred.
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On September 18 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 10:46 levelping wrote:
I have an honest question. How can an apology truly be contrite and sincere when the people issuing the apology did not personally witness or do the act that is being apologized for?
How much sincerity can be expressed when apOlogizing for something that you personally did not do?
I am just curious because a lot of people say that the Japanese apologies are hollow. Well in principle everythig is meaningless anyway since the perpetrators have mostly all died. Some of the older soldiers have come out on tv programs to say that they are very sorry. And very emotionally too. Shouldn't that be way more important than what politicians who have nothing to do with ww2? The only time sincere apologies and acts of contrition had a shot of happening was directly after the war. It didn't happen, and the result is what you have today - mutual hatred.
If Japan gives up the island it could be a fresh start between the two nations. But from an economic standpoint they won't. It's only going to get worst before it gets better.
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Even if Japan gives up on the island, there's still a long list of grievances that China will rally behind. The average Chinese citizen doesn't care THAT much about the island, what they care about is perceived Japanese arrogance. Japan is too convenient of a scapegoat for both Chinese nationalists and the Chinese government.
It's actually really sad when you compare the development of Europe after WW2 and the development of Asia after WW2. Europe is now nearly politically unified with very little bitterness between countries, while just about every Asian country hates every other asian country.
Koreans and Hong Konger/Taiwanese think Chinese are crazy and dirty. Chinese think of Koreans as inferior Chinese, Hong Kongers as British dogs and Taiwan as traitors. Japanese thinks everyone else is stuck dwelling on the past and everything thinks that the Japanese are arrogant war criminals with no remorse.
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Many people in this thread have accused me of being ignorant and uninformed, but I truly believe that Japan's military power is formidable. Japan isn't some weakling state that China is too lazy to crush, an attack on Japan would be catastrophic for China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force
Although China's navy outnumbers Japan's five to one, you have to understand many different aspects beyond number. China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time. Japan on the other hand, has historically been a maritime state. Additionally, the corruption within the Chinese armed forces cripples the military's strength. Officers are chosen based on connections and bribes, not by merit. Look at Mao Xin Yu, Mao Ze Dong's grandson. He was promoted to one star general, despite being (literally) mentally handicapped. I'm not saying that China isn't powerful, they would definitely win in a 1v1 total war. However, the balance of power is much more even than many of you guys seem to think.
This conflict has quickly elevated to a notion of national pride, and is closely related to Taiwan. If China's government is so weak and cannot even take back a small island with a navy five times as large as Japan's, how can they assert their territorial claim over Taiwan? The failure to act by the PRC has become and embarrassment to many Chinese. The main reason that China hasn't acted isn't because of fear of backlash or economy. The government does want to be seen as a hero in the eyes of its citizens by taking back the land from the hated Japanese. However, the military and the government simply don't have enough power to make this a once-sided engagement.
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On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:Many people in this thread have accused me of being ignorant and uninformed, but I truly believe that Japan's military power is formidable. Japan isn't some weakling state that China is too lazy to crush, an attack on Japan would be catastrophic for China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Navyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_ForceAlthough China's navy outnumbers Japan's five to one, you have to understand many different aspects beyond number. China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time. Japan on the other hand, has historically been a maritime state. Additionally, the corruption within the Chinese armed forces cripples the military's strength. Officers are chosen based on connections and bribes, not by merit. Look at Mao Xin Yu, Mao Ze Dong's grandson. He was promoted to one star general, despite being (literally) mentally handicapped. I'm not saying that China isn't powerful, they would definitely win in a 1v1 total war. However, the balance of power is much more even than many of you guys seem to think. This conflict has quickly elevated to a notion of national pride, and is closely related to Taiwan. If China's government is so weak and cannot even take back a small island with a navy five times as large as Japan's, how can they assert their territorial claim over Taiwan? The failure to act by the PRC has become and embarrassment to many Chinese. The main reason that China hasn't acted isn't because of fear of backlash or economy. The government does want to be seen as a hero in the eyes of its citizens by taking back the land from the hated Japanese. However, the military and the government simply don't have enough power to make this a once-sided engagement.
A joke prediction i made earlier based on that exact kind of thinking was that China will ask for the help of North Korea to defeat japan
But is it 100% impossible lol?
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On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:Many people in this thread have accused me of being ignorant and uninformed, but I truly believe that Japan's military power is formidable. Japan isn't some weakling state that China is too lazy to crush, an attack on Japan would be catastrophic for China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Navyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_ForceAlthough China's navy outnumbers Japan's five to one, you have to understand many different aspects beyond number. China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time. Japan on the other hand, has historically been a maritime state. Additionally, the corruption within the Chinese armed forces cripples the military's strength. Officers are chosen based on connections and bribes, not by merit. Look at Mao Xin Yu, Mao Ze Dong's grandson. He was promoted to one star general, despite being (literally) mentally handicapped. I'm not saying that China isn't powerful, they would definitely win in a 1v1 total war. However, the balance of power is much more even than many of you guys seem to think. This conflict has quickly elevated to a notion of national pride, and is closely related to Taiwan. If China's government is so weak and cannot even take back a small island with a navy five times as large as Japan's, how can they assert their territorial claim over Taiwan? The failure to act by the PRC has become and embarrassment to many Chinese. The main reason that China hasn't acted isn't because of fear of backlash or economy. The government does want to be seen as a hero in the eyes of its citizens by taking back the land from the hated Japanese. However, the military and the government simply don't have enough power to make this a once-sided engagement.
i think you got things backwards here. Japan's military strength IS a force to be reckoned with b/c it's a pseudo-nuclear power(it has no nuclear weapons, but it can start building them at the drop of a dime), but in conventional warfare would absolutely get crushed by China through overwhelming numbers alone, not to mention all those carrier sinker missiles china might possibly have(who knows if they are real). The reason why China would never engage in open warfare w/ Japan is the same reason why no first world country would ever consider war as an option with another first world country, TRADE. If you look @ all the awesomely sad but funny pictures in the OP, you'll see a bunch-a toyota's and sushi restaurants. Japan infuses a lot of money into China, and if open hostilities arose, everybody's pockets will get lighter, and THAT is what topples governments.
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On September 18 2012 12:06 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:Many people in this thread have accused me of being ignorant and uninformed, but I truly believe that Japan's military power is formidable. Japan isn't some weakling state that China is too lazy to crush, an attack on Japan would be catastrophic for China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Navyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_ForceAlthough China's navy outnumbers Japan's five to one, you have to understand many different aspects beyond number. China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time. Japan on the other hand, has historically been a maritime state. Additionally, the corruption within the Chinese armed forces cripples the military's strength. Officers are chosen based on connections and bribes, not by merit. Look at Mao Xin Yu, Mao Ze Dong's grandson. He was promoted to one star general, despite being (literally) mentally handicapped. I'm not saying that China isn't powerful, they would definitely win in a 1v1 total war. However, the balance of power is much more even than many of you guys seem to think. This conflict has quickly elevated to a notion of national pride, and is closely related to Taiwan. If China's government is so weak and cannot even take back a small island with a navy five times as large as Japan's, how can they assert their territorial claim over Taiwan? The failure to act by the PRC has become and embarrassment to many Chinese. The main reason that China hasn't acted isn't because of fear of backlash or economy. The government does want to be seen as a hero in the eyes of its citizens by taking back the land from the hated Japanese. However, the military and the government simply don't have enough power to make this a once-sided engagement. i think you got things backwards here. Japan's military strength IS a force to be reckoned with b/c it's a pseudo-nuclear power(it has no nuclear weapons, but it can start building them at the drop of a dime), but in conventional warfare would absolutely get crushed by China through overwhelming numbers alone, not to mention all those carrier sinker missiles china might possibly have(who knows if they are real). The reason why China would never engage in open warfare w/ Japan is the same reason why no first world country would ever consider war as an option with another first world country, TRADE. If you look @ all the awesomely sad but funny pictures in the OP, you'll see a bunch-a toyota's and sushi restaurants. Japan infuses a lot of money into China, and if open hostilities arose, everybody's pockets will get lighter, and THAT is what topples governments.
Unless the governments use "brain washing" propaganda and media control to convince a good portion of the population otherwise
Not saying china is or isint doing it
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On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time.
This is why people think you're ignorant and uninformed.
Please don't turn this thread back into that army theorycraft shit.
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Hmm. I just read that IEM Guangzhou might be affected by this too. Says that the ACG convention might be delayed to the beginning of next year, and that IEM7 won't delay the tournament, but will be finding a new place as soon as possible to hold the tournament. Can't find the official ESL source though.
Edit: Oh they might just be rumours though
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Don't be silly. It will never come to an actual war. That would be MAD.
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On September 18 2012 12:29 Weirdkid wrote:
Hmm. I just read that IEM Guangzhou will be affected by this too. Says that the ACG convention will be delayed to the beginning of next year, and that IEM7 won't delay the tournament, but will be finding a new place as soon as possible to hold the tournament. Can't find the official ESL source though.
And I thought it wouldn't effect me how silly. Gonna miss seeing the crowds at IEM Guangzhou for gaming instead of rioting.
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On September 18 2012 12:35 Danger_Duck wrote:
Don't be silly. It will never come to an actual war. That would be MAD.
That's what the people from the 1930 said about Germany + its neighbors.
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On September 18 2012 12:15 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time.
This is why people think you're ignorant and uninformed. Please don't turn this thread back into that army theorycraft shit.
Why am I ignorant and uninformed? How am I turning this into army theorycraft shit? Is what I said false? Please have some basis for your attacks.
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On September 18 2012 12:53 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 12:35 Danger_Duck wrote:
Don't be silly. It will never come to an actual war. That would be MAD.
That's what the people from the 1930 said about Germany + its neighbors.
There wasn't nukes or open global markets back then.
Plus, China is very different from Germany.
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Yeah how about japan can give up these islands when china gives Taiwan and Hong Kong back to the people that live there lol. I cannot stand the way Chinese deal with these things.
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On September 18 2012 12:56 fatfail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 12:15 RavenLoud wrote:On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time.
This is why people think you're ignorant and uninformed. Please don't turn this thread back into that army theorycraft shit. Why am I ignorant and uninformed? How am I turning this into army theorycraft shit? Is what I said false? Please have some basis for your attacks.
Excuse me I didn't meant to be as offensive as you seem to have understood.
I think it's going to be the third time that I've said that China has arguably best naval technology of the world until the 16th century in this thread rofl. Huge treasure fleets and vessels way bigger than Europeen ships of the time. The fact that they didn't use it to invade other countries or discover America is a sign of their enclosed mentality. Not that they are peaceloving hippies, but militaristic expansionism never seemed to be part of the Confucian style.
Speaking about theoretical warfare as internet armchair generals between China and *insert country* is just stupid. It leads to nowhere and nothing can be proved. Look at page 30-40 ish with what SayGen did to this thread.
Peace.
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On September 18 2012 13:07 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 12:56 fatfail wrote:On September 18 2012 12:15 RavenLoud wrote:On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time.
This is why people think you're ignorant and uninformed. Please don't turn this thread back into that army theorycraft shit. Why am I ignorant and uninformed? How am I turning this into army theorycraft shit? Is what I said false? Please have some basis for your attacks. Excuse me I didn't meant to be as offensive as you seem to have understood. I think it's going to be the third time that I've said that China has arguably best naval technology of the world until the 16th century in this thread rofl. Huge treasure fleets and vessels way bigger than Europeen ships of the time. The fact that they didn't use it to invade other countries or discover America is a sign of their enclosed mentality. Not that they are peaceloving hippies, but militaristic expansionism never seemed to be part of the Confucian style. Speaking about theoretical warfare as internet armchair generals between China and *insert country* is just stupid. It leads to nowhere and nothing can be proved. Look at page 30-40 ish with what SayGen did to this thread. Peace.
China more FE! LESS TURTLE ON ONE BASE!
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On September 18 2012 13:07 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 12:56 fatfail wrote:On September 18 2012 12:15 RavenLoud wrote:On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time.
This is why people think you're ignorant and uninformed. Please don't turn this thread back into that army theorycraft shit. Why am I ignorant and uninformed? How am I turning this into army theorycraft shit? Is what I said false? Please have some basis for your attacks. Excuse me I didn't meant to be as offensive as you seem to have understood. I think it's going to be the third time that I've said that China has arguably best naval technology of the world until the 16th century in this thread rofl. Huge treasure fleets and vessels way bigger than Europeen ships of the time. The fact that they didn't use it to invade other countries or discover America is a sign of their enclosed mentality. Not that they are peaceloving hippies, but militaristic expansionism never seemed to be part of the Confucian style. Speaking about theoretical warfare as internet armchair generals between China and *insert country* is just stupid. It leads to nowhere and nothing can be proved. Look at page 30-40 ish with what SayGen did to this thread. Peace.
ignorant and uninformed. Both clueless, and will never listen :D
User was warned for this post
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On September 18 2012 12:56 fatfail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 12:15 RavenLoud wrote:On September 18 2012 11:43 fatfail wrote:China has traditionally had a strong army but has always had a terrible navy ever since ancient time.
This is why people think you're ignorant and uninformed. Please don't turn this thread back into that army theorycraft shit. Why am I ignorant and uninformed? How am I turning this into army theorycraft shit? Is what I said false? Please have some basis for your attacks.
The chinese were the first people to master the seas. They travelled and connected the world with trade well before any european did. Theres even a lot of evidence to suggest the chinese gave the europeans maps of the world and that is how they 'discovered' these places. so yes what you said is terribly wrong.
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On September 18 2012 13:06 MateShade wrote:
Yeah how about japan can give up these islands when china gives Taiwan and Hong Kong back to the people that live there lol. I cannot stand the way Chinese deal with these things.
HK was part of China until taken by the British as a colony..the majority of its population are ethnic Chinese, and not even Taiwan denies it's part of China, it's just a matter of civil war.
"Why don't you give Australia back to the Aboriginals? I can't stand the way Australia deal with these things.", this is what you sound like.
Those riots are stupid though, every Chinese person knows it. The sentiments behind them didn't come from the left field however. Reading KwarK's post would help.
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EPT
