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On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy..
Erm... they do in fact acknowledge the actions of those war criminals in a context which offends even those with in Japan itself who see it as a return to policies which lead them to the war in the first place, it's not in the context of what you suggest. If that was the case it would be fine. This is like saying that it's out of line for any victim of a crime to to demand of the criminal or his relatives / future relations be not be allowed to glorify his crimes or celebrate them. It's absolutely ridiculous if you apply the context of war crimes. You could look this up and look at why people have legitimate reasons to be angry.
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On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy..
No, visiting the shrine had never led to China sending ships close to Japan, China people responded by not purchasing japanese goods for a period of time, not inviting Japanese stars to China performance, or Chinese star not attending anything in Japan, punishing them financially. Always.
China as a victim of the Japanese invasion should have the say to tell Japan NOT to do so simply because it reminds China of what have happened.
While you might feel ok with Japan visiting the shrine, it might really be japan trying to acknowledge their past, this is not how China feels, not how the Chinese feels about it.
for example, you don't go on making a documentary of a raped woman case without asking the consent of the woman (or her parents if she was murdered).
It's the same logic.
Japan has a PM who thinks class A war criminals are not war criminals according to domestic law, now that might not represent Japan's opinion, it says a lot when a spoke person representing Japan speaking out such opinion, especially when he was elected.
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On October 20 2012 21:11 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Orek wrote:On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. You are entitled to your own opinion even if I disagree with some, so let me just keep my post to fact check. Maybe you intentionally made the sentence misleading, but PM has never denied the “existence” of comfort women. As anyone can tell by actually reading the link, PM denied the fact that Japanese Imperial Army forced them to become comfort women. Aside from a case in Indonesia, this statement seems true, so nothing is wrong with what Mr. Abe said. I don’t know a single Japanese politician who denies the fact that comfort women existed. It’s not like Abe retracted his earlier statement. Apology isn’t for his misstatement or anything. Apology was toward comfort women, which itself wasn’t a new thing from Japan.
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Korea is not siding with China on this issue. Depending on what source you use, Korean opinion is different. Some use “enemy’s enemy is friend” logic and others use “China’s expansionistic nature is also threat to Korea” logic. Since Korean government doesn’t side with either, saying Korea is siding with China is just a wish if not lie/ignorance. Other than these, I respect your opinion that is different from mine. The claim was that there is "no evidence" that the "comfort women" were taken with out "coercion". Everyone of the quoted portions is debated and accepted to be untrue or disingenuous. Denial of evidence, testimonies, trafficking, and ongoing documentation of inhumane treatment and sexual violence. The term comfort women itself is ludicrous and white washes what happened to these women. There was absolutely no "coercion" as many were dragged off with direct involvement from Japanese officers, and suggesting that any person would personally agree to an existence of violence and abuse with out possible venues to escape, any form of legal proceedings or prosecution of those responsible, is ridiculous. Here's the remark by Shintao Ishihara on August 24 of 2012. “There is no evidence that the comfort women were taken under coercion by the Japanese military. If Korea has this evidence it would be good to see it, prostitution is a good means of making money in times of difficulty, and the comfort women chose to do that.” There is so much documentation by allied forces (impartial to China and Japan) post WWII regarding this issue that saying there was "no evidence" or that these were "comfort women" and not sex slaves, or that they were taken of their own free will with out being lied to is fundamentally offensive to anyone who cares about human life or historical accuracy. You can look up an international judgement hosted in the Hague regarding this case "Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery". They confirmed it. There is also white washing that directly followed by Japan's Shinzo Abe (later prime minister) who left out the final judgement which incriminates Japan, prevented it from broadcasted in the NHK (Japan's major news network), as well as replacing incriminating testimony / evidence with an interview of "a specialist" who denies the entire tribunal's findings. Except that "comfort women chose to do that" isn't necessarily true for every single case, I find nothing wrong with Ishihara's statement. I hate Ishihara's political stance, but he is speaking the truth on this issue. There is no such evidence that shows Imperial Japanese Army's involvement in forced recruitment/coercion. I too would like to see the evidence if any. I don't know a case where women were dragged off by direct involvement by Japanese officers, except one case in Indonesia, not Korea. As far as I know, recruitment of prostitutes were done mostly by Korean pimps. I don't think everything was fair and square while recruiting, some were sold by their parents, but that doesn't mean Japanese Army coerced them to become comfort women. So, Abe and Ishihara's statements aren't wrong. The term confort women is the direct translation of Japanese term "Ian-fu" in English. It's not like Japan started using the term to downplay its history. So-called "Ian-fu" existed during Korean war for Amerian/Korean army as well, but hypocritically they use the term prostitutes only in their case. Comfort women were paid prostitutes, too , and Japan is sorry for creating the situation where people had to become such prostitutes, hence apology.
Well... maybe do some research before making a statement that would offend many people who are permanently scarred from the affair. Lying to someone that they are going to get a perfectly respectable job then forcing them into prostitution, or "recruiting" local populations to do your dirty work for you doesn't relieve you of responsibility. You are still the prime instigator. Alot of this is so well documented that it dates back to right after the war was over and allied forces documented occupied Manchuria / Japan.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/IMTFE-8.html
-1021-
"They recruited women labour on the pretext of establishing factories. They forced the women thus recruited into prostitution with Japanese troops."
Just as one example.
Ikuhiko Hata who is one of the historians who dismiss these claims is under open criticism for academical dishonesty as well as lying by leading Japanese academics / authority figures regarding the subject, so I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. I mean this is a person who denies the first hand account of a veteran who is putting himself at risk for stating that he personally committed the act of forcing women to become prostitutes.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/08/world/japanese-veteran-presses-wartime-brothel-issue.html
You can also just search up the link which I've already posted.
http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/womenstribunal2000/Judgement.pdf
A 500 page report which details the findings and final judgement.
Edit: this version contains 312 pages where as the final judgement contains around 200 in its original format. You can look through the evidence, there's entire sections devoted to the legitimacy of the evidence and how it was gathered and direct linkage to personnel with in the Japanese military. I don't now how it can get more black and white than this. The tribunal also included 6 prosecutors from Japan and the judgement was unanimous.
Their apologies only come after public demands and serious potential damages to their political careers, nothing about it is principled and they refuse reparations or acknowledgement that they were even doing anything wrong at all. First they insisted it was local private entrepreneurs, then they insisted the women joined of their free will, then they insisted that the Japanese military had no hand in it even though that was the sole demographic that these women served, and nowadays they are saying that there was no "coercion". How much more bullshit political rhetoric do you need to throw on an issue where even the Japanese government's own estimate was that 100 to 200 thousand women were affected? Are you seriously telling me, that 100,000 ~200,000 women just got up one day and said, "there's a war going on and I have a family to take care of, I'm going to be abandon all that and be a prostitute for the occupying forces willingly instead of attempting to rebuild my home that they destroyed." And if you seriously argue that the purpose of the prostitution was a lack of resources due to the invasion thus they needed the income to rebuild their homeland, then that still paints Japan, the invading occupiers, as the primary reason for causing such suffering. The Japanese government refuses to take this responsibility.
Also on close inspection the example of veteran testimony which I gave was a very poor one which has been personally admitted to be partially fabricated, I will however leave it in as critics often cite his opinion as an excuse to saying that non of these events took place any where. Other testimonies obviously exist and are sourced with in the other links I've given.
Japan's official remarks also do not acknowledge the illegal nature of sexual abuse and assault these women sustained, and instead chalks it up to "a product of the times", arguing that these were legal prostitutes who had the ability to choose and quit or were entitled to any form of human rights let alone worker rights is indefensible any ways.
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5930 Posts
Japan has a PM who thinks class A war criminals are not war criminals according to domestic law, now that might not represent Japan's opinion, it says a lot when a spoke person representing Japan speaking out such opinion, especially when he was elected.
In a way it doesn't: we vote for political parties, not for prime ministers or cabinet ministers. It something some people don't understand for some reason. In Australia when Kevin Rudd resigned, some people complained that Julia Gillard wasn't the prime minister they voted for. You didn't vote for Kevin Rudd, you voted for the Labor party and the Labor party can do what the fuck it wants including cabinet reshuffles. I doubt people in Japan solely vote for prime ministers, I mean Japanese prime ministers don't really hold much power. Everyone who has looked in Japanese politics (or read a Japanese-focused newspaper) knows its the ministries/party elites that hold the cards and he's just there to commit ritual suicide if something goes bad.
Anyway, Japan's political system is ridiculously insular and incestuous. Most, if not all, politicians there are unpopular* which is not surprising at all. But because of the insular and incestuous nature, its hard to get any new blood in there. They can try voting third party because the more left wing parties in Japan seem to be far less awful in terms of the nationalism crap but they have no chance of winning. Let's be realistic here.
Incestuous politics isn't new or unique to Japan. UK's Tory party upper echelon probably consists of mostly elite independent boarding school brats (i.e. Eton), Oxbridge graduates, and Bullingdon Dining Club members. Guys like Boris Johnson were pretty much born into the Tory party through lineage.
Both major political parties in Australia have openly supported polices that treat legal asylum seekers inhumanely (our comfort women are probably boat people at this point). Brandt and Wilkie were the only two Australian politicians to vote against indefinite offshore processing of asylum seekers.
Does that mean that the Australian population support for inhumane treatment for asylum seekers, as a whole? At this point, the only political party with enough willpower to go against this are the Greens. But the Greens will never win a majority in anything. For many people, the Greens have unpleasant domestic policies and many people believe that more votes for the Greens generally means less votes for Labor (meant to be our left wing party, basically the same as the Liberal party now because of an obsession with middle class voters).
I'm not sure what the solution is but I can tell you that significant numbers of people are not pleased with Labor but will keep voting Labor to prevent the Liberal party from getting power. In the same way, farmers will generally keep voting the National party, even how the National party doesn't serve the rural community anymore, because they fear Labor and the Greens for whatever reason.
*The DJP had something like 20% approval rate. Think about that for a second. I don't think Bush ever got that low.
**In the case of Ishihara, he's apparently seen as the person who put Tokyo back in the black. Make no mistake, he's a fucking asshole and a troll as well but Japanese people in Tokyo aren't voting him because he's a badass telling them Chinese and Koreans how it is. He isn't running Tokyo into the ground and considering how fucking awful Japanese politicians and demographics are, I would not be surprised that this is seen as as a really strong positive.
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comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally.
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On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin?
It doesnt matter when they buy the islands. If you look at the island all the inhabitants are japanese speaking people anyways. What are you going to to? In the name of justice and claim that the island belongs to china and chase those people who live for generations there out? They lived there long before the PRC government was even established lol
That like Russian asking American to give Alaska back lol
If you are so obsessed with history you will never move forward
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On October 20 2012 21:45 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy.. No, visiting the shrine had never led to China sending ships close to Japan, China people responded by not purchasing japanese goods for a period of time, not inviting Japanese stars to China performance, or Chinese star not attending anything in Japan, punishing them financially. Always. China as a victim of the Japanese invasion should have the say to tell Japan NOT to do so simply because it reminds China of what have happened. While you might feel ok with Japan visiting the shrine, it might really be japan trying to acknowledge their past, this is not how China feels, not how the Chinese feels about it. for example, you don't go on making a documentary of a raped woman case without asking the consent of the woman (or her parents if she was murdered). It's the same logic. Japan has a PM who thinks class A war criminals are not war criminals according to domestic law, now that might not represent Japan's opinion, it says a lot when a spoke person representing Japan speaking out such opinion, especially when he was elected.
No you don't have the right to dictate to someone how they should peacefully act. If Japan is doing it peacefully then China has no right to "warn" them to stop. You don't get to decide what someone else should or shouldn't be able to peacefully do based on what offends you (particularly when the offense is mostly due to the ambiguous meaning you ascribe to it). Making a documentary about a raped woman directly impacts her. You've decided the Japanese visiting their war shrine impacts you. There's a difference.
Yeah, the Japanese PM shouldn't have denied the sex slaves, but people are making it sound like Japan hasn't apologized. Japan issued a formal apology to sex slaves in 1993. The PM should be condemned for his comments, and he has been condemned for his comments. Japan as a nation shouldn't necessarily have to start apologizing all over again. In my opinion Korea is wrong to demand that Japan apologize and suggest the emperor isn't welcome until he does. What does it help doing that? At some point the world really is going to have to move on from this.
On October 20 2012 21:42 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy.. Erm... they do in fact acknowledge the actions of those war criminals in a context which offends even those with in Japan itself who see it as a return to policies which lead them to the war in the first place, it's not in the context of what you suggest. If that was the case it would be fine. This is like saying that it's out of line for any victim of a crime to to demand of the criminal or his relatives / future relations be not be allowed to glorify his crimes or celebrate them. It's absolutely ridiculous if you apply the context of war crimes. You could look this up and look at why people have legitimate reasons to be angry.
No, the context isn't clear cut. China is not prepared to make a distinction between a Japanese minister commemorating an anniversary of the end of the war, bowing to those who served Japan, or merely honoring a tradition to visit the shrine and reflecting on the horrors of the war. You say it would be fine in the context I suggested? Oh really? There's no evidence of this, China simply says don't do it or else.
Your analogy isn't quite apt either because Japan isn't unequivocally glorifying their crimes or celebrating them by visiting the war shrine, you've made that judgement. Also it is out of line for a victim to demand a criminal's relatives/future relations not be allowed to peacefully glorify his crimes. The victim has a right to demand justice and see the criminal punished for their crime, they don't have a right to demand some future relative can't glorify it (especially when to compare meaningfully that glorification would be in the home of the criminal or the criminal's relative).
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On October 20 2012 08:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 08:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:On October 20 2012 08:07 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2012 05:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 03:52 KwarK wrote:On October 20 2012 02:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 19 2012 14:41 ShadeR wrote:
Theres not a single post here justifying the rioting and destruction of property. Kwark's post is simply providing context and a sense of perspective for the unaware. Stop being a racist for a second and let's do analysis: On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. Let's take a look at Kwark's post, shall we? Sentence 1: "To be honest learning about Japanese conduct... justifies anti-Japanese feelings." Sentence 2: Imperial Japan was evil but didn't atone correctly and wallowed in self pity and denial, they should have followed the example of the great Nazis. What the fuck. Sentence 3: It's not the current generation's fault. Okay, that's obviously true. Sentence 4: However they still need to take responsibility for what people did fucking YEARS BEFORE THEY WERE BORN. Sentence 5: Some shit politicians did that shows how evil Japanese people are. By that metric, all Americans are idiots. Wait-- Sentence 6: A link to the evil deeds of the politicians. Sentence 7: Violent protests are always wrong BUT anti-Japanese ones are justifiable. I mean, I'm being reasonable here, but this is an attack on Japanese people in the middle of China turning all of their guns on them, too. Are you guys blind? You have completely failed to read my post. I said they needed to understand and show awareness of their history, at no point did I suggest they needed to be responsible for it, in fact, I said the opposite of that. Politicians in a democracy speak for the people. That's how it works. It's not comparable to "all Americans are idiots" I specifically condemned violent protests but said that anti-Japanese sentiment can be understood. You have read my post through insane "everybody be hatin' on Japan" lenses and either deliberately misconstrued some very unambiguous sentences, maliciously misrepresented my words or lack any kind of reading comprehension. I suggest you re-examine your life and/or education. Or, maybe we could both acknowledge that we're on opposite sides of this debate and see that there's something terrible CURRENTLY going on that shouldn't be justified. Japanese have no control over their politicians. We're not all like that. So maybe China shouldn't be inciting their citizens to destroy property and harass individuals based on their political views. Do you remember how WW2 started? The post you are criticising said that the protests that are currently going on are "always wrong". You are continuing to intentionally misinterpret an unambiguous statement which clearly and simply criticised violent protests against Japanese people. You are not debating with anyone. You have taken a post which described violent protest as always wrong and are attacking it for "justifying something terrible". You are lying. Stop it. Kinda weird that many different people somehow managed to misinterpret what you said in exactly the same way, and your response is first to zero in on one of them and insult them, and second to tell him he's lying and to stop it. You spent two paragraphs talking about how Japan is wrong and the sentiments that have caused violence are justified - and one throwaway line about how violence is never justified. Now, all you want to focus on is the throwaway line. Ignore the rest. And to say that what you said was unambiguous and simple... kind of bad form to tell someone he's a liar and to stop it when what you said wasn't a simple and clear statement condemning violence (a clear and simple sentence, out of two paragraphs that undercut that sentence), and it apparently wasn't unambiguous either judging from the reaction to it. Maybe, if what people are believing is causing them to be violent, what they're believing is wrong, at least to the intensity that they believe it. Maybe? And maybe when only one sentence out of two paragraphs rejects violence, maybe it wasn't just a simple and clear statement of rejecting violence. "Violence is never right," full stop, is clear and simple. "Violence is never right, but the feelings that have caused it in this particular instance are justifiable" is not. It is in no way weird that someone with a passionate view can misinterpret a post on the internet as something they should be arguing against, despite agreeing with it. Happens all the time. What is more surprising is for him to keep insisting that a post he agrees with is actually the opposite after it is explained to him, hence why I concluded he is lying. You can believe something is wrong without being violent about it. For example I believe your political views are wrong, and justifiably so, but I would not punch you in the face because of that. If someone were to punch you in the face for your political views then I would be happy to say that "punching you in the face for your opinion expressed inoffensively is always wrong" but I would also illustrate the reason your views pissed them off as background information. That is what I have done here. The reason I didn't explain why violent protests against innocent civilians is always wrong is because the background behind that is self evident. It is because it is so painfully obvious that it cannot be justified that I didn't see the need to write a whole paragraph explaining that blame doesn't pass from father to son through the semen (unless you're a Christian) and that the majority of Japanese war criminals are long dead. If you were to assess what i was saying based upon the words actually used and their meaning, rather than weighting each part of it by the number of lines for some bizarre and inexplicable reason, then you would understand that the "throwaway line" was actually a pretty important part of it. It took more words to explain the background and why Chinese hostility to Japan exists because it's more complicated, there's no secret code here where the degree to which I mean something is proportional to the number of lines used.
I'm sorry for misinterpreting your post. It just seems that when your first and last sentence both say something along the lines of "this is justifiable for these reasons" that it's a central theme to your post. That's just how I've been trained to think. If your intent was truly something else, then I'm sorry for my personal deficits in understanding.
However, please consider that you might be slightly fallible here and that what you wrote could be misconstrued.
On October 20 2012 08:52 evanthebouncy! wrote:
see here's how Japanese ppl work.
They'll shit on the weaker people, and they'll bow down to the stronger people.
So far Chinese are still weak
It's fine, just take some time, till they grow more powerful
Then I expect a full apology in order. Until then, no.
Sir, I respectfully disagree. We're not all like that and they're (we're, in my case) not all like that. Let's please avoid sweeping generalizations to billions of people.
Still, on behalf of the Japanese, I apologize for the atrocities committed in WW2 and any other time in our history.
On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully.If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action?
I humbly disagree with your analysis, sir. I wouldn't describe what China is doing as "friendly and (peaceful)."
Let's all take a step back and think about how this is affecting actual people, and not just back our nationality or home team.
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The underlying problem is that people are programmed from childhood to believe that there is nationality.
And people act upon it.
What is a nationality afterall just a memory, just a programm running in peoples head.
If I take every member of a nation at birth and put them in another country to grow up or simply wipe the memory of them, what would be left of the nation ?
Nothing, why ? Because it dues not exist. A tree exists, a car exists, a nation ? Does not.
A nation is an entity like a religion, non existent but in the peoples heads so it is extremly difficult to deal with.
So if people think that it exists and that it is threatend and that they are part of it, they feel threatend and do unloical things, becaue most humans are so stupid, they are proof that humans descent from apes.
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On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally.
Not the bloody issue, people are angry about ongoing processes such as denial, revising school text books, public statements, censoring the issue from the media, etc etc which affects people living today and the education of children today. Incidentally Japanese people are also upset at the white washing of their own history. Read the god damn thread before making an ill constructed point.
So for example: Shinzo Abe and conservative politicians actively censored the NHK from broadcasting a tribunal's findings, a tribunal held in the Hague with international prosecutors including 6 from Japan who unilaterally denounced Japan's ongoing actions to obscure and white wash the comfort women issue.
http://www.asahi.com/english/politics/TKY200501120160.html
No one even made the effort to point out any reasoning why an educational program should be censored in such a manner, no complaints about inaccuracy, unlawfull conduct, or other wise. And you can read the entire report here:
http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/womenstribunal2000/Judgement.pdf
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On October 21 2012 04:53 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:45 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy.. No, visiting the shrine had never led to China sending ships close to Japan, China people responded by not purchasing japanese goods for a period of time, not inviting Japanese stars to China performance, or Chinese star not attending anything in Japan, punishing them financially. Always. China as a victim of the Japanese invasion should have the say to tell Japan NOT to do so simply because it reminds China of what have happened. While you might feel ok with Japan visiting the shrine, it might really be japan trying to acknowledge their past, this is not how China feels, not how the Chinese feels about it. for example, you don't go on making a documentary of a raped woman case without asking the consent of the woman (or her parents if she was murdered). It's the same logic. Japan has a PM who thinks class A war criminals are not war criminals according to domestic law, now that might not represent Japan's opinion, it says a lot when a spoke person representing Japan speaking out such opinion, especially when he was elected. No you don't have the right to dictate to someone how they should peacefully act. If Japan is doing it peacefully then China has no right to "warn" them to stop. You don't get to decide what someone else should or shouldn't be able to peacefully do based on what offends you (particularly when the offense is mostly due to the ambiguous meaning you ascribe to it). Making a documentary about a raped woman directly impacts her. You've decided the Japanese visiting their war shrine impacts you. There's a difference. Yeah, the Japanese PM shouldn't have denied the sex slaves, but people are making it sound like Japan hasn't apologized. Japan issued a formal apology to sex slaves in 1993. The PM should be condemned for his comments, and he has been condemned for his comments. Japan as a nation shouldn't necessarily have to start apologizing all over again. In my opinion Korea is wrong to demand that Japan apologize and suggest the emperor isn't welcome until he does. What does it help doing that? At some point the world really is going to have to move on from this. Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:42 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy.. Erm... they do in fact acknowledge the actions of those war criminals in a context which offends even those with in Japan itself who see it as a return to policies which lead them to the war in the first place, it's not in the context of what you suggest. If that was the case it would be fine. This is like saying that it's out of line for any victim of a crime to to demand of the criminal or his relatives / future relations be not be allowed to glorify his crimes or celebrate them. It's absolutely ridiculous if you apply the context of war crimes. You could look this up and look at why people have legitimate reasons to be angry. No, the context isn't clear cut. China is not prepared to make a distinction between a Japanese minister commemorating an anniversary of the end of the war, bowing to those who served Japan, or merely honoring a tradition to visit the shrine and reflecting on the horrors of the war. You say it would be fine in the context I suggested? Oh really? There's no evidence of this, China simply says don't do it or else. Your analogy isn't quite apt either because Japan isn't unequivocally glorifying their crimes or celebrating them by visiting the war shrine, you've made that judgement. Also it is out of line for a victim to demand a criminal's relatives/future relations not be allowed to peacefully glorify his crimes. The victim has a right to demand justice and see the criminal punished for their crime, they don't have a right to demand some future relative can't glorify it (especially when to compare meaningfully that glorification would be in the home of the criminal or the criminal's relative).
The exact analogies are made to denounce neo-nazi's, since when was this okay. Look at the situation today:
There are no museums or memorials or landmarks or events or non white washed text book mentions of the comfort women. Yet there is a shrine, which is a religious institution hosted by religious personnel honoring war criminals. And no I do not make that judgement myself, it's been made in public statements by the personnel involved themselves. If I choose to purposefully do something in the context of appealing to an extremist faction with in the voting demographic right after controversial events or remarks by a foreign government, or right before an election, then it's very apparent that there is a direct linkage between those events. People who openly publicize their visits to the shrines and then make the remark that they are visiting as an individual and not as a person holding public office is just having your cake and eating it too.
When I said that this would be fine, it was in the context of the Chinese public or as a Chinese individual. Government bodies are always going to bargain and make remarks for political ground gain, I can't speak for them or predict those actions. Chinese people don't have any bloody problems with any Japanese citizen or official visiting / building / commemorating the past events in a museum or memorial or educational institution. It's the religious nature of a shrine that sets people off. And that's exactly what alot of these politicians including Shinzo Abe have done, they changed their visit to the Shrine to a visit to a memorial or graveyard which has the same purpose of honouring a past event and the Chinese public took that as an appropriate action.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance.
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On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally.
The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.
I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there.
The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps.
The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China.
I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution.
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On October 21 2012 04:04 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? It doesnt matter when they buy the islands. If you look at the island all the inhabitants are japanese speaking people anyways. What are you going to to? In the name of justice and claim that the island belongs to china and chase those people who live for generations there out? They lived there long before the PRC government was even established lol That like Russian asking American to give Alaska back lol If you are so obsessed with history you will never move forward
There are no inhabitants on the island. What are you talking about.
The islands cannot be compared to Alaska as China did not legally participate in its hand-over to Japan. It was a deal done between Japan and the US without Taiwan/China's consent. Not to mention that it should have been returned to Taiwan post WW2 but things were iffy because of the Chinese civil war. Japan took advantage of it, and the US made a questionable decision.
If you never learn from history, you'll just end up repeating the same mistakes.
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Canada2068 Posts
On October 21 2012 06:48 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally. The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there. The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps. The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China. I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution.
I'm suspicious about the bolded part. If you are a dictator of a country, have full control of education system and can put anything you want in there, would you not use your power to direct national sentiments/anger towards foreign issues rather than domestic?
edit: Agree completely with your last paragraph. I think I might just be a bit more wary of government subversion than you and that's the difference in our views.
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On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance.
I don't think it's a small minority, simply a silent majority. And Japan's citizens have been very occupied dealing with their own historical issues (nuclear energy, whether or not ruling ideology pre-WWII was acceptable, the social castes of society, rapid growth and cultural impact from the west and so on) to notice. Which makes the statements of political figures and the context presented in programming and education all the more significant. I wouldn't fault the average Japanese person for the individual actions of a couple of politicians who are doing it for personal gain, but it is alarming that such actions would actually give a politician a gain rather than discredit him.
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On October 21 2012 07:08 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:48 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally. The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there. The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps. The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China. I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution. I'm suspicious about the bolded part. If you are a dictator of a country, have full control of education system and can put anything you want in there, would you not use your power to direct national sentiments/anger towards foreign issues rather than domestic?
I'm not saying that they don't do it, but the fact that they do it doesn't explain all of it. Hope you catch my drift rofl.
I've been to China, and the feeling you get in the war museum is not as much "THOSE BASTARDS RAAAAAAWWWWRR", but mostly an deep and pervasive shame over their former weakness accompanied by a traumatic philosophical, social and technological self re-examination. Most smart Chinese people knows the flaws of their own government and take everything they say with a truckload of salt.
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On October 21 2012 07:16 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 07:08 CountChocula wrote:On October 21 2012 06:48 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally. The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there. The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps. The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China. I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution. I'm suspicious about the bolded part. If you are a dictator of a country, have full control of education system and can put anything you want in there, would you not use your power to direct national sentiments/anger towards foreign issues rather than domestic? I'm not saying that they don't do it, but the fact that they do it doesn't explain all of it. Hope you catch my drift rofl. I've been to China, and the feeling you get in the war museum is not as much "THOSE BASTARDS RAAAAAAWWWWRR", but mostly an deep and pervasive shame over their former weakness accompanied by a traumatic philosophical, social and technological self re-examination. Most smart Chinese people knows the flaws of their own government and take everything they say with a truckload of salt.
This.
When I was fourteen I had the chance to visit a Sino-Japanese museum and the overarching impression I had was that Japan should never again be entrusted with a military capable of offensive operations of any kind... which means Japan should have no navy and only a minimal air force
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On October 21 2012 06:37 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 04:53 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 21:45 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy.. No, visiting the shrine had never led to China sending ships close to Japan, China people responded by not purchasing japanese goods for a period of time, not inviting Japanese stars to China performance, or Chinese star not attending anything in Japan, punishing them financially. Always. China as a victim of the Japanese invasion should have the say to tell Japan NOT to do so simply because it reminds China of what have happened. While you might feel ok with Japan visiting the shrine, it might really be japan trying to acknowledge their past, this is not how China feels, not how the Chinese feels about it. for example, you don't go on making a documentary of a raped woman case without asking the consent of the woman (or her parents if she was murdered). It's the same logic. Japan has a PM who thinks class A war criminals are not war criminals according to domestic law, now that might not represent Japan's opinion, it says a lot when a spoke person representing Japan speaking out such opinion, especially when he was elected. No you don't have the right to dictate to someone how they should peacefully act. If Japan is doing it peacefully then China has no right to "warn" them to stop. You don't get to decide what someone else should or shouldn't be able to peacefully do based on what offends you (particularly when the offense is mostly due to the ambiguous meaning you ascribe to it). Making a documentary about a raped woman directly impacts her. You've decided the Japanese visiting their war shrine impacts you. There's a difference. Yeah, the Japanese PM shouldn't have denied the sex slaves, but people are making it sound like Japan hasn't apologized. Japan issued a formal apology to sex slaves in 1993. The PM should be condemned for his comments, and he has been condemned for his comments. Japan as a nation shouldn't necessarily have to start apologizing all over again. In my opinion Korea is wrong to demand that Japan apologize and suggest the emperor isn't welcome until he does. What does it help doing that? At some point the world really is going to have to move on from this. On October 20 2012 21:42 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 21:09 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action? I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight. I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here. + Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality. I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy.. Erm... they do in fact acknowledge the actions of those war criminals in a context which offends even those with in Japan itself who see it as a return to policies which lead them to the war in the first place, it's not in the context of what you suggest. If that was the case it would be fine. This is like saying that it's out of line for any victim of a crime to to demand of the criminal or his relatives / future relations be not be allowed to glorify his crimes or celebrate them. It's absolutely ridiculous if you apply the context of war crimes. You could look this up and look at why people have legitimate reasons to be angry. No, the context isn't clear cut. China is not prepared to make a distinction between a Japanese minister commemorating an anniversary of the end of the war, bowing to those who served Japan, or merely honoring a tradition to visit the shrine and reflecting on the horrors of the war. You say it would be fine in the context I suggested? Oh really? There's no evidence of this, China simply says don't do it or else. Your analogy isn't quite apt either because Japan isn't unequivocally glorifying their crimes or celebrating them by visiting the war shrine, you've made that judgement. Also it is out of line for a victim to demand a criminal's relatives/future relations not be allowed to peacefully glorify his crimes. The victim has a right to demand justice and see the criminal punished for their crime, they don't have a right to demand some future relative can't glorify it (especially when to compare meaningfully that glorification would be in the home of the criminal or the criminal's relative). The exact analogies are made to denounce neo-nazi's, since when was this okay. Look at the situation today: There are no museums or memorials or landmarks or events or non white washed text book mentions of the comfort women. Yet there is a shrine, which is a religious institution hosted by religious personnel honoring war criminals. And no I do not make that judgement myself, it's been made in public statements by the personnel involved themselves. If I choose to purposefully do something in the context of appealing to an extremist faction with in the voting demographic right after controversial events or remarks by a foreign government, or right before an election, then it's very apparent that there is a direct linkage between those events. People who openly publicize their visits to the shrines and then make the remark that they are visiting as an individual and not as a person holding public office is just having your cake and eating it too. When I said that this would be fine, it was in the context of the Chinese public or as a Chinese individual. Government bodies are always going to bargain and make remarks for political ground gain, I can't speak for them or predict those actions. Chinese people don't have any bloody problems with any Japanese citizen or official visiting / building / commemorating the past events in a museum or memorial or educational institution. It's the religious nature of a shrine that sets people off. And that's exactly what alot of these politicians including Shinzo Abe have done, they changed their visit to the Shrine to a visit to a memorial or graveyard which has the same purpose of honouring a past event and the Chinese public took that as an appropriate action.
First of all you can't compare Neo Nazis to what the Japanese are doing. It's a ridiculous comparison in fact. Neo Nazis overtly glorify the political and social agenda of the now dead Nazi party. They are overtly antisemitic and racist. It is absolutely clear what their agenda is. The Japanese people have a shrine, a memorial, to the war, and I'm sorry, but if you're going to insist the non sequitur that the Japanese are maintaining it so they can honor war criminals I want a reference. Your claim is in not in deference of reason. Particularly since the Japanese government and people have apologized for their actions. You need to provide evidence. And you'll have to do more than show one crazy person does it, because you're making a claim which is culturally based.
Secondly, the shrine is a Shinto shrine, and it is believed that "negative or evil acts are absolved when enshrinement occurs." So it's inherently an acknowledgement of negative or evil acts. It's an edifice to absolution. It doesn't compare meaningfully to neo Nazis putting forth a racist political and social agenda based on previously committed war crimes. And as long as you're acknowledging it as a religious tradition, why do you believe you have any right to tell Japan they shouldn't continue it?
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On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance.
I understand how you feel, but the people who live in Japan now are not the same people who invaded Asia. They my be the next generation or even people who just moved to Japan after the incident. It is very ignorant to look at the past to judge how moral they are now since these aren't even the same people who did this to your country. So what if they don't send you letters of apology? You should be asking for letters of apology from the people who actually committed the war crimes, not people who actually had nothing to with it. And now, it's too late since most of these people are dead. So I think we need to move on.
Aside from that, siding with China on the matter shouldn't be a case of whether Japan has taken over your country or how Japan was horrible to their enemies in WW2. You should rather look at who the island actually should belong to. This means looking at the facts of the matter, not your feelings about Japanese people which has nothing to do with who actually owns the islands.
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EPT
