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On October 20 2012 08:52 evanthebouncy! wrote:
see here's how Japanese ppl work.
They'll shit on the weaker people, and they'll bow down to the stronger people.
So far Chinese are still weak
It's fine, just take some time, till they grow more powerful
Then I expect a full apology in order. Until then, no.
Making a generalization like that about the Japanese people is a bit much. The government, maybe. Let's limit our criticism to the institutions responsible for this mess.
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On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/.
The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations.
Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past.
It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute?
It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face.
The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action.
If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action?
Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change?
if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop.
China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened.
Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin?
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On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin?
I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
But putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered.
I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process.
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On October 20 2012 02:22 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 14:41 ShadeR wrote:
Theres not a single post here justifying the rioting and destruction of property. Kwark's post is simply providing context and a sense of perspective for the unaware. Stop being a racist for a second and let's do analysis:
Perfect example of a warped version of white guilt. Made in China too.
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On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time.
So history somehow justifies aggressivness? You know, China isnt the only country that suffered from the hands of others, if we take that narrative then: we (Polish) for example are allowed to destroy the property of German and Russian companies? Are we allowed to demand Kiev, Lviv and Vilno back? Perhaps British should demand New York? That way of thinking is quick way to WW3. China feels strong now and thinks she can bully Japan, but it doesnt make it right. You dont have any moral advantage over Japanese, first clean Your own yard then start lecturing others how they should behave (Tibet anyone?)
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On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process.
Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity.
China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment.
No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home.
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On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process.
look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime
http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.html
Do you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.html
Only then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/
His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes
If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing?
There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited.
Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest.
Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself.
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region?
How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place?
If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME?
there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself.
Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship
The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening.
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On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening.
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out.
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On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening.
You are entitled to your own opinion even if I disagree with some, so let me just keep my post to fact check.
Maybe you intentionally made the sentence misleading, but PM has never denied the “existence” of comfort women. As anyone can tell by actually reading the link, PM denied the fact that Japanese Imperial Army forced them to become comfort women. Aside from a case in Indonesia, this statement seems true, so nothing is wrong with what Mr. Abe said. I don’t know a single Japanese politician who denies the fact that comfort women existed.
It’s not like Abe retracted his earlier statement. Apology isn’t for his misstatement or anything. Apology was toward comfort women, which itself wasn’t a new thing from Japan.
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Korea is not siding with China on this issue. Depending on what source you use, Korean opinion is different. Some use “enemy’s enemy is friend” logic and others use “China’s expansionistic nature is also threat to Korea” logic. Since Korean government doesn’t side with either, saying Korea is siding with China is just a wish if not lie/ignorance.
Other than these, I respect your opinion that is different from mine.
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On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out.
On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980.
These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries.
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On October 20 2012 19:55 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. You are entitled to your own opinion even if I disagree with some, so let me just keep my post to fact check. Maybe you intentionally made the sentence misleading, but PM has never denied the “existence” of comfort women. As anyone can tell by actually reading the link, PM denied the fact that Japanese Imperial Army forced them to become comfort women. Aside from a case in Indonesia, this statement seems true, so nothing is wrong with what Mr. Abe said. I don’t know a single Japanese politician who denies the fact that comfort women existed. It’s not like Abe retracted his earlier statement. Apology isn’t for his misstatement or anything. Apology was toward comfort women, which itself wasn’t a new thing from Japan. Show nested quote +
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Korea is not siding with China on this issue. Depending on what source you use, Korean opinion is different. Some use “enemy’s enemy is friend” logic and others use “China’s expansionistic nature is also threat to Korea” logic. Since Korean government doesn’t side with either, saying Korea is siding with China is just a wish if not lie/ignorance. Other than these, I respect your opinion that is different from mine.
The claim was that there is "no evidence" that the "comfort women" were taken with out "coercion". Everyone of the quoted portions is debated and accepted to be untrue or disingenuous. Denial of evidence, testimonies, trafficking, and ongoing documentation of inhumane treatment and sexual violence. The term comfort women itself is ludicrous and white washes what happened to these women. There was absolutely no "coercion" as many were dragged off with direct involvement from Japanese officers, and suggesting that any person would personally agree to an existence of violence and abuse with out possible venues to escape, any form of legal proceedings or prosecution of those responsible, is ridiculous.
Here's the remark by Shintao Ishihara on August 24 of 2012.
“There is no evidence that the comfort women were taken under coercion by the Japanese military. If Korea has this evidence it would be good to see it, prostitution is a good means of making money in times of difficulty, and the comfort women chose to do that.”
There is so much documentation by allied forces (impartial to China and Japan) post WWII regarding this issue that saying there was "no evidence" or that these were "comfort women" and not sex slaves, or that they were taken of their own free will with out being lied to is fundamentally offensive to anyone who cares about human life or historical accuracy.
You can look up an international judgement hosted in the Hague regarding this case "Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery". They confirmed it. There is also white washing that directly followed by Japan's Shinzo Abe (later prime minister) who left out the final judgement which incriminates Japan, prevented it from broadcasted in the NHK (Japan's major news network), as well as replacing incriminating testimony / evidence with an interview of "a specialist" who denies the entire tribunal's findings.
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On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries.
I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck).
And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements:
""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China,"
"India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken."
These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality.
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On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out.
the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully.
If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too.
I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't?
But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic.
What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act.
This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island)
Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case.
Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year.
Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action?
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On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality.
Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these.
China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence.
If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of.
Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations:
1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.
1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports.
1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations.
1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation.
1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right.
1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries.
1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights.
1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights.
1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries.
1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa.
1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions.
1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions.
2008 Calls for a right of development for nations.
This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality.
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On September 16 2012 05:59 Maxie wrote:
Yeah, what made this happen?
Because they are fighting over the land. There is a lot of oil around that land. Does that make sense?
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Just came back from the Tokyo Chinese embassy, and it was very normal. No protesters outside aside from the Falungong members (who are basically at every Chinese embassy, year-round).
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On October 20 2012 21:02 Cambium wrote:
Just came back from the Tokyo Chinese embassy, and it was very normal. No protesters outside aside from the Falungong members (who are basically at every Chinese embassy, year-round).
That's good to hear. Things died down in China really fast after the government started unilaterally sending out riot police, which mind you isn't great or observant of human rights at all since they basically also removed the right of peaceful protesters who were caught in the cross fire.
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On October 20 2012 20:33 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor. Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind. On October 20 2012 18:29 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. Literally no body sensible who isn't taking part in these actions condone it, the exact same population also denounces Japan's recent actions. It's a case where the vast majority denounce violence and irresponsibility of portions of its own population as well as the actions of a foreign entity. China isn't so intent on these actions now, believe me, leading up to the islands being bought there was steady progress between the relations of the two countries, once the Japanese government announced it people went ape shit. Many people see it as intentional politics to appeal to extremist factions in Japan seeing as they timed it right before an election and then subsequently made controversial remarks as well as visited the shrines. It's really hard to paint China as the aggravating force of this specific event here. You can obviously still fault those who are irresponsible and for the current generation who should know better to do more to hold back the anti-Japanese sentiment. No body thinks there is any validity of violence or rioting in China, literally no body, no one condones it, the public denounces it, notable figures denounce it, no politician condones it, the riot police cracked down and censored the crack down so hard no one even caught sight of what the fuck happened. Obviously this is also paralleled with the same commitment to denounce Japan's recent actions, but you have to understand that does not translate into support for extremist action. Similar to how the US public denouncing extremist Islamic groups does not translate into the US public condoning crimes to be committed against Islam, and it certainly doesn't translate into support for violence and rioting at home. Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. the problem right now isn't 'army presence', China doesn't even want to appear to be looking aggressive because it wants to expand while looking all friendly and peacefully. If you are arguing with China's aggressiveness in its international politics, you should look at USA too. I know how much concern has been growing over China's military and economic presence, which country wouldn't? But none of this matters in this case, that's out of this topic. What I was saying is Japan certainly did not act peacefully unless you regard purchasing an island in dispute is a peaceful act. This action itself is the seed of this whole rioting and disruption in the region. It wasn't just to China, it was also offensive to Taiwan, except that Taiwan reacted much more subtly (by releasing stamps with the painting of the island) Do you still think army presence meant more aggressiveness? Japan was the one with the small army yet with an extremely aggressive foreign policy in this case. Japan was the one to constantly visiting the shrine, even if China warned them not to do so every year. Would a country committed to peace do such a provoking action?
I sympathize dude, but it does matter, it's central to the issue, it's militant behavior. What right do you think you have to warn Japan not to visit their war shrine. China has no right whatsoever, they're completely out of line to do it, but they do it anyway. It is provocative, aggressive, and militant to "warn" them against doing so. I personally don't have any problem with Japan visiting their war shrine and bowing, yes even with 14 class A war criminals. Bowing to their war shrine doesn't automatically mean "Yeah, you kicked China's ass and it was awesome," it could be their way of remembering and acknowledging a part of their Japanese past, horrors included. Yes, perhaps there are some lunatics who still think it's awesome in this day and age, but they aren't representative of the Japanese people or their government. China has no right to then conclude that Japan "has alot to learn from Germany" and all that rhetoric, they're out of line saying it. Sometimes I think the subsequent generations of Germans after the events of WW2 have lived with too much national guilt. Anyway, whatever, that's beside the point. Saying stuff like that is provocative and it's really just about starting a fight.
I'm fine with saying Japan shouldn't have attempted to purchase the island since it's under dispute. I think that's reasonable, and maybe you're right about that. I don't think China's policy vis-a-vis Japan is particularly reasonable, nor the public outcry, and I really worry for humanity's future when people react to stuff like this. Anywho I'd better crash it's late (early) here.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 20:34 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:21 sevencck wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:37 sevencck wrote:
I wrote out a long reply but I can condense it into a few sentences. Japan has no military presence, and for almost 70 years has shown the world that it is committed to peace. China now has one of the world's largest armies, and has been rather aggressive in its foreign policy with virtually every other country on Earth over the past several years. There are numerous international diplomats complaining about China's behavior. As I said, I was providing links but there are simply too many examples. I urge you to look into it for yourself. My point is that looking at the situation strictly as an outside observer I don't believe Japan would be difficult to reason with. I don't believe China respects the international community sufficiently to respect a hypothetical judgement made in Japan's favor.
Did Japan commit barbaric war crimes against China? Yes, I'd certainly argue they did. At the moment Japan is acting peacefully, and China is not. You've really highlighted this in the bolded statement you've written. I don't know if Japan will ever be able to meaningfully apologize to China for what they did, but the anti-Japanese sentiment coming out of China is certainly not helping any kind of brotherhood of mankind.
Interesting. I'm not sure I have a reply other than I've thought about what you've written. I have some doubts but I guess we'll see how things play out. On the issue of aggression: The only Chinese military presences stationed over seas are humanitarian missions that's been ongoing in coercion with UN peace keeping in places like Somalia and consists of a very small force. China extends its influence on neighboring countries yes, but in the words of American analysts: "When Iran extends its influence on neighboring countries, they are destabilizing the region with their influence. When America invades a country and destroy its infrastructure, they are stabilizing the region from undesirable domestic influence." Nothing about China's foreign policy is exercised beyond the rights of any developing nation, of course unless you agree with the American Veto on UN resolution "Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right." in 1980. These "complaints" being made have direct conflicts of interest and shouldn't be taken seriously, because similar claims to authority are being made by American analysts who insist that continued "status quo" of American influence should be taken for granted. So it's fine for the leading nation to continue its existing status quo, yet it's not okay for developing countries, be it China or India or Pakistan or Sudan to exert their influence on neighboring countries. I take it you're from China? Just curious, you're very quick to defend it. Any hypocrisy on the part of other countries isn't inherently validating to China's foreign policy. I'm fully against the notion of American exceptionalism, I think it's ridiculous. Actually China's foreign policy in Africa is very contentious right now, it's economic hegemony, divorced from any notion of moral obligation. They're dictating one-sided terms of aid in exchange for resources. In fact, China has dictated one-sided terms of trade with Canada for raw resources (and as an aside, the guy that's currently in power in our country thinks it's a fantastic opportunity to make a quick buck). And conflicts of interest are common on the international stage. As such, they aren't a satisfactory explanation for the disproportionate volume of complaints against China. You mentioned India, that reminds me of a couple weeks ago when India tested missiles (which I didn't like), and China issued the following statements: ""India should not overestimate its strength. Even if it has missiles that could reach most parts of China, that does not mean it will gain anything from being arrogant during disputes with China. India should be clear that China's nuclear power is stronger and more reliable. For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China," "India should also not overstate the value of its Western allies and the profits it could gain from participating in a containment of China. If it equates long range strategic missiles with deterrence of China, and stirs up further hostility, it could be sorely mistaken." These aren't statements that reflect a peaceful mentality. Well are these not the same levels of statements which were thought to be sensible by any western state if it was declared in defense of say the increasing military power of Iran or Lebannon or principle opposition to American influence? China isn't making open military threats and exercising those threats like Israel is, and countries which border those controlling nuclear weapons showing open hostility often make statements such as these. China's enterprising in Africa is contentious, but the only reason why China / Indonesia / India has any grasp of African natural resources right now is usually because there was previous military presence which ruined the region's infrastructure and they are unwilling to co-operate with the previous aggressors - usually being western interests. Take the example of Southern Sudan, Chevron dug the unity well and there was clear conflict of interest which drove civil war displacing millions and ruining the lives of even more, after the dusts settled the government became reluctant to establish trade agreements with those who instigated said violence. If you apply the same standards of conduct in coercion with internationally law there is very little that China does which is out of line. I do not defend China's government I think it's about the most important principle opponent of social progress in China, however I think in this specific scenario it's instead the failing to establish and enforce international laws, specifically ones concerning the rights of developing nations, which is repeatedly vetoed by the US and western interests where China has always voted in favor of. Take for example the amount of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US regarding the rights of developing nations, note that this isn't to discredit the US government in terms of a governing body, governments are not humanitarian organizations, and if you subscribe to the "realpolitik" methodology of seeking the maximum benefit for your own constituency then the US government is quite successful. But this is the state of enforcing the rights of developing nations: 1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports. 1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 1984 Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions. 1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions. 2008 Calls for a right of development for nations. This is the state of what is internationally accepted, China can not compete with other countries which operate under the assumptions that these fundamental rights do not exist who are already exploiting the market. The status quo is indefensible but China did not contribute to opposing such legislature supporting the rights of developing nations, quite the opposite China has been a proponent of the rights of developing nations. Often in self interest sure as China is / was a developing country. But it just surprises me that people think China is acting out of line when the line is set so low internationally that you legalize criminality.
I'll read this tomorrow morning.. so.. sleepy..
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On October 20 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 19:55 Orek wrote:On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. You are entitled to your own opinion even if I disagree with some, so let me just keep my post to fact check. Maybe you intentionally made the sentence misleading, but PM has never denied the “existence” of comfort women. As anyone can tell by actually reading the link, PM denied the fact that Japanese Imperial Army forced them to become comfort women. Aside from a case in Indonesia, this statement seems true, so nothing is wrong with what Mr. Abe said. I don’t know a single Japanese politician who denies the fact that comfort women existed. It’s not like Abe retracted his earlier statement. Apology isn’t for his misstatement or anything. Apology was toward comfort women, which itself wasn’t a new thing from Japan.
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Korea is not siding with China on this issue. Depending on what source you use, Korean opinion is different. Some use “enemy’s enemy is friend” logic and others use “China’s expansionistic nature is also threat to Korea” logic. Since Korean government doesn’t side with either, saying Korea is siding with China is just a wish if not lie/ignorance. Other than these, I respect your opinion that is different from mine. The claim was that there is "no evidence" that the "comfort women" were taken with out "coercion". Everyone of the quoted portions is debated and accepted to be untrue or disingenuous. Denial of evidence, testimonies, trafficking, and ongoing documentation of inhumane treatment and sexual violence. The term comfort women itself is ludicrous and white washes what happened to these women. There was absolutely no "coercion" as many were dragged off with direct involvement from Japanese officers, and suggesting that any person would personally agree to an existence of violence and abuse with out possible venues to escape, any form of legal proceedings or prosecution of those responsible, is ridiculous. Here's the remark by Shintao Ishihara on August 24 of 2012. “There is no evidence that the comfort women were taken under coercion by the Japanese military. If Korea has this evidence it would be good to see it, prostitution is a good means of making money in times of difficulty, and the comfort women chose to do that.” There is so much documentation by allied forces (impartial to China and Japan) post WWII regarding this issue that saying there was "no evidence" or that these were "comfort women" and not sex slaves, or that they were taken of their own free will with out being lied to is fundamentally offensive to anyone who cares about human life or historical accuracy. You can look up an international judgement hosted in the Hague regarding this case "Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery". They confirmed it. There is also white washing that directly followed by Japan's Shinzo Abe (later prime minister) who left out the final judgement which incriminates Japan, prevented it from broadcasted in the NHK (Japan's major news network), as well as replacing incriminating testimony / evidence with an interview of "a specialist" who denies the entire tribunal's findings.
Except that "comfort women chose to do that" isn't necessarily true for every single case, I find nothing wrong with Ishihara's statement. I hate Ishihara's political stance, but he is speaking the truth on this issue. There is no such evidence that shows Imperial Japanese Army's involvement in forced recruitment/coercion. I too would like to see the evidence if any. I don't know a case where women were dragged off by direct involvement by Japanese officers, except one case in Indonesia, not Korea. As far as I know, recruitment of prostitutes were done mostly by Korean pimps. I don't think everything was fair and square while recruiting, some were sold by their parents, but that doesn't mean Japanese Army coerced them to become comfort women. So, Abe and Ishihara's statements aren't wrong.
The term confort women is the direct translation of Japanese term "Ian-fu" in English. It's not like Japan started using the term to downplay its history. So-called "Ian-fu" existed during Korean war for Amerian/Korean army as well, but hypocritically they use the term prostitutes only in their case. Comfort women were paid prostitutes, too , and Japan is sorry for creating the situation where people had to become such prostitutes, hence apology.
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All the posts in this thread either state what should be obvious by saying: the riots are stupid and unjustified, but they're limited to a very small portion of the population. They likely stem from outrage at unrelated Japanese war-time atrocities.
Or they just downplay the extent of Japanese war-time atrocities and talk about how "China" is being bad, which are subjects that are only obliquely relevant to the discussion to begin with.
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