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On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance.
Ya thats strange, considering, you know, thanks to China your country is divided and half of it is ruled by a family of insane weirdos.
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5930 Posts
On October 21 2012 07:21 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 07:16 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 07:08 CountChocula wrote:On October 21 2012 06:48 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally. The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there. The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps. The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China. I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution. I'm suspicious about the bolded part. If you are a dictator of a country, have full control of education system and can put anything you want in there, would you not use your power to direct national sentiments/anger towards foreign issues rather than domestic? I'm not saying that they don't do it, but the fact that they do it doesn't explain all of it. Hope you catch my drift rofl. I've been to China, and the feeling you get in the war museum is not as much "THOSE BASTARDS RAAAAAAWWWWRR", but mostly an deep and pervasive shame over their former weakness accompanied by a traumatic philosophical, social and technological self re-examination. Most smart Chinese people knows the flaws of their own government and take everything they say with a truckload of salt. This. When I was fourteen I had the chance to visit a Sino-Japanese museum and the overarching impression I had was that Japan should never again be entrusted with a military capable of offensive operations of any kind... which means Japan should have no navy and only a minimal air force
And prompt further fear in Japan because Japan has no navy to protect its interests against other nations?
Yeah OK sure. I mean if you believe Japan will go on a conquest of slaughter, they definitely haven't proven it with their actions. Not to mention they literally don't have the demographic to do so.
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On October 21 2012 08:19 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance. Ya thats strange, considering, you know, thanks to China your country is divided and half of it is ruled by a family of insane weirdos.
Or if the US had the balls to not give half of it to Soviet control at the end of WW2...
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On October 21 2012 08:29 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 08:19 Sub40APM wrote:On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance. Ya thats strange, considering, you know, thanks to China your country is divided and half of it is ruled by a family of insane weirdos. Or if the US had the balls to not give half of it to Soviet control at the end of WW2.
You don't irritate your allies after a massive war.
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On October 20 2012 21:50 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 21:11 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Orek wrote:On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. You are entitled to your own opinion even if I disagree with some, so let me just keep my post to fact check. Maybe you intentionally made the sentence misleading, but PM has never denied the “existence” of comfort women. As anyone can tell by actually reading the link, PM denied the fact that Japanese Imperial Army forced them to become comfort women. Aside from a case in Indonesia, this statement seems true, so nothing is wrong with what Mr. Abe said. I don’t know a single Japanese politician who denies the fact that comfort women existed. It’s not like Abe retracted his earlier statement. Apology isn’t for his misstatement or anything. Apology was toward comfort women, which itself wasn’t a new thing from Japan.
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Korea is not siding with China on this issue. Depending on what source you use, Korean opinion is different. Some use “enemy’s enemy is friend” logic and others use “China’s expansionistic nature is also threat to Korea” logic. Since Korean government doesn’t side with either, saying Korea is siding with China is just a wish if not lie/ignorance. Other than these, I respect your opinion that is different from mine. The claim was that there is "no evidence" that the "comfort women" were taken with out "coercion". Everyone of the quoted portions is debated and accepted to be untrue or disingenuous. Denial of evidence, testimonies, trafficking, and ongoing documentation of inhumane treatment and sexual violence. The term comfort women itself is ludicrous and white washes what happened to these women. There was absolutely no "coercion" as many were dragged off with direct involvement from Japanese officers, and suggesting that any person would personally agree to an existence of violence and abuse with out possible venues to escape, any form of legal proceedings or prosecution of those responsible, is ridiculous. Here's the remark by Shintao Ishihara on August 24 of 2012. “There is no evidence that the comfort women were taken under coercion by the Japanese military. If Korea has this evidence it would be good to see it, prostitution is a good means of making money in times of difficulty, and the comfort women chose to do that.” There is so much documentation by allied forces (impartial to China and Japan) post WWII regarding this issue that saying there was "no evidence" or that these were "comfort women" and not sex slaves, or that they were taken of their own free will with out being lied to is fundamentally offensive to anyone who cares about human life or historical accuracy. You can look up an international judgement hosted in the Hague regarding this case "Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery". They confirmed it. There is also white washing that directly followed by Japan's Shinzo Abe (later prime minister) who left out the final judgement which incriminates Japan, prevented it from broadcasted in the NHK (Japan's major news network), as well as replacing incriminating testimony / evidence with an interview of "a specialist" who denies the entire tribunal's findings. Except that "comfort women chose to do that" isn't necessarily true for every single case, I find nothing wrong with Ishihara's statement. I hate Ishihara's political stance, but he is speaking the truth on this issue. There is no such evidence that shows Imperial Japanese Army's involvement in forced recruitment/coercion. I too would like to see the evidence if any. I don't know a case where women were dragged off by direct involvement by Japanese officers, except one case in Indonesia, not Korea. As far as I know, recruitment of prostitutes were done mostly by Korean pimps. I don't think everything was fair and square while recruiting, some were sold by their parents, but that doesn't mean Japanese Army coerced them to become comfort women. So, Abe and Ishihara's statements aren't wrong. The term confort women is the direct translation of Japanese term "Ian-fu" in English. It's not like Japan started using the term to downplay its history. So-called "Ian-fu" existed during Korean war for Amerian/Korean army as well, but hypocritically they use the term prostitutes only in their case. Comfort women were paid prostitutes, too , and Japan is sorry for creating the situation where people had to become such prostitutes, hence apology. Well... maybe do some research before making a statement that would offend many people who are permanently scarred from the affair. Lying to someone that they are going to get a perfectly respectable job then forcing them into prostitution, or "recruiting" local populations to do your dirty work for you doesn't relieve you of responsibility. You are still the prime instigator. Alot of this is so well documented that it dates back to right after the war was over and allied forces documented occupied Manchuria / Japan. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/IMTFE-8.html-1021- "They recruited women labour on the pretext of establishing factories. They forced the women thus recruited into prostitution with Japanese troops." Just as one example. Ikuhiko Hata who is one of the historians who dismiss these claims is under open criticism for academical dishonesty as well as lying by leading Japanese academics / authority figures regarding the subject, so I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. I mean this is a person who denies the first hand account of a veteran who is putting himself at risk for stating that he personally committed the act of forcing women to become prostitutes. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/08/world/japanese-veteran-presses-wartime-brothel-issue.htmlYou can also just search up the link which I've already posted. http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/womenstribunal2000/Judgement.pdfA 500 page report which details the findings and final judgement. Edit: this version contains 312 pages where as the final judgement contains around 200 in its original format. You can look through the evidence, there's entire sections devoted to the legitimacy of the evidence and how it was gathered and direct linkage to personnel with in the Japanese military. I don't now how it can get more black and white than this. The tribunal also included 6 prosecutors from Japan and the judgement was unanimous. Their apologies only come after public demands and serious potential damages to their political careers, nothing about it is principled and they refuse reparations or acknowledgement that they were even doing anything wrong at all. First they insisted it was local private entrepreneurs, then they insisted the women joined of their free will, then they insisted that the Japanese military had no hand in it even though that was the sole demographic that these women served, and nowadays they are saying that there was no "coercion". How much more bullshit political rhetoric do you need to throw on an issue where even the Japanese government's own estimate was that 100 to 200 thousand women were affected? Are you seriously telling me, that 100,000 ~200,000 women just got up one day and said, "there's a war going on and I have a family to take care of, I'm going to be abandon all that and be a prostitute for the occupying forces willingly instead of attempting to rebuild my home that they destroyed." And if you seriously argue that the purpose of the prostitution was a lack of resources due to the invasion thus they needed the income to rebuild their homeland, then that still paints Japan, the invading occupiers, as the primary reason for causing such suffering. The Japanese government refuses to take this responsibility. Also on close inspection the example of veteran testimony which I gave was a very poor one which has been personally admitted to be partially fabricated, I will however leave it in as critics often cite his opinion as an excuse to saying that non of these events took place any where. Other testimonies obviously exist and are sourced with in the other links I've given. Japan's official remarks also do not acknowledge the illegal nature of sexual abuse and assault these women sustained, and instead chalks it up to "a product of the times", arguing that these were legal prostitutes who had the ability to choose and quit or were entitled to any form of human rights let alone worker rights is indefensible any ways.
Interesting Links. It's nice to finally see the evidence here that I asked other guys even a month ago. Thanks.
Ikuhiko Hata who is one of the historians who dismiss these claims is under open criticism for academical dishonesty as well as lying by leading Japanese academics / authority figures regarding the subject, so I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. I mean this is a person who denies the first hand account of a veteran who is putting himself at risk for stating that he personally committed the act of forcing women to become prostitutes. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/08/world/japanese-veteran-presses-wartime-brothel-issue.htmlAlso on close inspection the example of veteran testimony which I gave was a very poor one which has been personally admitted to be partially fabricated, I will however leave it in as critics often cite his opinion as an excuse to saying that non of these events took place any where. Other testimonies obviously exist and are sourced with in the other links I've given.
The person who admits fabrication and says, "There is no profit in writing the truth in books. Hiding the facts and mixing them with your own assertions is something that newspapers do all the time too" counts for nothing as a credible source.
http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/womenstribunal2000/Judgement.pdfA 500 page report which details the findings and final judgement. Edit: this version contains 312 pages where as the final judgement contains around 200 in its original format. You can look through the evidence, there's entire sections devoted to the legitimacy of the evidence and how it was gathered and direct linkage to personnel with in the Japanese military. I don't now how it can get more black and white than this. The tribunal also included 6 prosecutors from Japan and the judgement was unanimous.
Either my Adobe Reader is not working well, or the link doesn't work, so I only read the excerpt from organization's website. So-called "court" (when it is not) planned/held by private extreme left-wing organizations doesn't have legitimacy just like those planned by private extreme right-wing do not. 4 out of 6 so-called prosecutors from Japan were from the organization itself. While judgement is merely an opinion, I'm interested in evidence part. I can't comment on that before reading the full version.
This one is legitimate. I think you should have only listed this one to keep credibility. I am reading deeper into IMTFE materials. In fact, there were some facts I didn't know before. As unfair as IMTFE was, Japan accepted the judgement of IMTFE according to San Francisco Treaty Article 11, so IMTFE judgement is relevant. Because Korea/China didn't sign/approve San Francisco Treary, this is mostly irrelevant for them (especially Korea), but Japan can't deny what's presented at IMTFE at least as an internal issue. To me, what treaty is signed and agreed is more important than what actually happened or who is offended. Factual or not, at least IMTFE judgement has to be the basis of Japan's standpoint as a law-abiding nation.
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On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance.
This is a very bad generalization.
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On October 21 2012 08:19 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance. Ya thats strange, considering, you know, thanks to China your country is divided and half of it is ruled by a family of insane weirdos.
Thanks to China?
North Korea's initial division was because Soviet troops ended up occupying the northern half of the country after the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in August 1945. And China only intervened in the Korean War because MacArthur wanted to use Korea as a springboard to "finish the job" and "roll back Communism across Asia" with tactical nuclear weapons.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 21 2012 07:21 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 07:16 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 07:08 CountChocula wrote:On October 21 2012 06:48 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally. The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there. The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps. The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China. I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution. I'm suspicious about the bolded part. If you are a dictator of a country, have full control of education system and can put anything you want in there, would you not use your power to direct national sentiments/anger towards foreign issues rather than domestic? I'm not saying that they don't do it, but the fact that they do it doesn't explain all of it. Hope you catch my drift rofl. I've been to China, and the feeling you get in the war museum is not as much "THOSE BASTARDS RAAAAAAWWWWRR", but mostly an deep and pervasive shame over their former weakness accompanied by a traumatic philosophical, social and technological self re-examination. Most smart Chinese people knows the flaws of their own government and take everything they say with a truckload of salt. This. When I was fourteen I had the chance to visit a Sino-Japanese museum and the overarching impression I had was that Japan should never again be entrusted with a military capable of offensive operations of any kind... which means Japan should have no navy and only a minimal air force
some of your posts dude...
you are directly contradicting that guy's experience.
the war museum isn't the bad part. it's a combination of framing by way of lack of alternative consciousness and overemphasis on foreign wars, and lack of reflection on nationalism itself.
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On October 21 2012 10:51 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 07:21 Shady Sands wrote:On October 21 2012 07:16 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 07:08 CountChocula wrote:On October 21 2012 06:48 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 04:00 zala2023 wrote:
comfort women my ass
if you are gonna used stuff thats nearly 100 years ago as excuse then china got lots of other enemies
what about the mongols who killed off the song dynasty and conquered all of china? they burned down the capital city and murdered millions of chinese. death to mongols!
dont forget about when the british invaded southern china during the late qing dynasty, death to the british too!
Just look at the EU, those countries who fought with one another for hundreds of years are all friends now. Now the Chinese government is stirring up fire using some random island as excuse. This is why China is not a first world country, even if they catch up in economy their are too behind morally and culturally. The random island is not an excuse. It's the central issue that tapped into an existing sentiment has been pooling gradually from 150 years of foreign abuse and domestic weakness. It's not exactly CCP manufactured, though it is further fueled by the social-economic troubles that the CCP are responsible for.I agree that Asia could do well to learn a thing or two from the EU post WW2, that's why there's people are telling Japan to do as Germany did. Problem is, things don't just magically get poofed to their ideal state, it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to reach there. The thing with Mongols and Manchus is, they are pretty much non-issue today and fairly subjugated to China. Half of Mongolia + most of Manchuria is Chinese now, not to mention that their "war crimes" occured so long ago. Not only there's no one today who was alive during these events, the accomplishments of the Mongols and the Manchus (especially the latter) are often times accepted as Chinese accomplishments. It's sad and funny at the same time but that's how history works. I'm sure that some day in the future, somebody will write a book about the good things that came from Nazi Germany and WW2 (computers, rockets, technology, American hegemony, etc) and pass it as general human accomplishments. Unlike today, there won't be many people who would burst in vehement outcry because they can look over their shoulders to see the tattoo they've got in German death camps. The British knew their limits, and gave back a pretty well developped city. You will see no attempts from the British to pretend that they can still argue territory with China. I'd refrain from painting people with such a wide brush, it's not like all 1.3 billion Chinese people are bloodthirsty jackals that wants to invade Japan. Sure you've got lots of frustrated and uneducated folks, but there's many more people who dislike Japan's recent actions as well as the domestic rioting, only hoping for a peaceful resolution. I'm suspicious about the bolded part. If you are a dictator of a country, have full control of education system and can put anything you want in there, would you not use your power to direct national sentiments/anger towards foreign issues rather than domestic? I'm not saying that they don't do it, but the fact that they do it doesn't explain all of it. Hope you catch my drift rofl. I've been to China, and the feeling you get in the war museum is not as much "THOSE BASTARDS RAAAAAAWWWWRR", but mostly an deep and pervasive shame over their former weakness accompanied by a traumatic philosophical, social and technological self re-examination. Most smart Chinese people knows the flaws of their own government and take everything they say with a truckload of salt. This. When I was fourteen I had the chance to visit a Sino-Japanese museum and the overarching impression I had was that Japan should never again be entrusted with a military capable of offensive operations of any kind... which means Japan should have no navy and only a minimal air force some of your posts dude... you are directly contradicting that guy's experience. the war museum isn't the bad part. it's a combination of framing by way of lack of alternative consciousness and overemphasis on foreign wars, and lack of reflection on nationalism itself.
No dude, the logic was that Japan has a set of circumstances which compel it to be expansionist, commercially and/or militarily, on an extreme level in order to provide a decent standard of living for its citizens. Commercial is fine. Military is not. Now Japan could choose to be peaceful and trade-oriented, but so far the only institutional force which keeps Japan that way is the US Navy. Subtract that outside force and all of Japan's remaining institutions will tilt Japan in a militarist direction.
Don't believe me? Consider that when the Japanese government was looking at denuclearizing the island permanently (dismantling all the nuke plants) the #1 point of opposition was not TEPCO but the Japanese military. Why? Because if that happened they couldn't get their grubby little hands on a nuclear bomb within 30 days if they so chose to do so.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
just because interests dictate it does not mean it will be done in a militaristic fashion. actual seizure of land and colonization is not efficient enough to serve the interests of industry. it's just way too costly.
although you do have a good case for the expansion of capital as a driving cause of wars. however, as you know, portraying such an expansion in nationalistic lights is always required to get popular participation. what's the argument that china's use of nationalism is not precisely in this vein?
every case of aggressive chinese territorial moves is accompanied by the discovery of oil deposits. nationalist protests are the only kind of protest allowed in china. if the chinese government actually cares to rein it in, they'll rein it in. official statements are a joke.
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On October 21 2012 11:01 oneofthem wrote:
just because interests dictate it does not mean it will be done in a militaristic fashion. actual seizure of land and colonization is not efficient enough to serve the interests of industry. it's just way too costly.
although you do have a good case for the expansion of capital as a driving cause of wars. however, as you know, portraying such an expansion in nationalistic lights is always required to get popular participation. what's the argument that china's use of nationalism is not precisely in this vein?
every case of aggressive chinese territorial moves is accompanied by the discovery of oil deposits. nationalist protests are the only kind of protest allowed in china. if the chinese government actually cares to rein it in, they'll rein it in. official statements are a joke.
So what? Just because the theory implies equivalence, it doesn't necessarily mean this equivalence holds up in fact.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
china of course would never, for instance, invade the phillippines and slaughter the people like the japanese did. however, the same imperialistic expansion motivation is at work. the very thing you pointed out.
so here's the dilemma for you, either you accept that a clear interest of industrial expansion necessitates atrocious wars, and thereby place china under suspicion, or you have to recognize complicating factors that prevent this straightforward implication. we are thankfully a more civilized age than the 30's
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On October 21 2012 10:25 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:50 Caihead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 21:11 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:08 Caihead wrote:On October 20 2012 19:55 Orek wrote:On October 20 2012 18:44 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2012 17:41 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin? I think the Japanese have acknowledged their misdeeds pretty well. I posted a link already in this thread, perhaps I'll post it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanBut putting all that aside, what if Japan decides it doesn't wish to atone? How much protest and provocative posturing becomes justified? How far should you go to demand an apology? Commit humanity to another series of violent acts? Shall we go to war to demand apologies over a previous war? And why is China so intent on these actions now? Is it because you have an economic interest at stake? Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on it in the summer of 1945, the only examples of fission/fusion bombs being used in war in human history, the effects of which are still being felt, so it's not like they haven't suffered. I understand the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was absolutely unconscionable, but I don't see China's behavior as being particularly valid at the moment, I think they're using Japan's misdeeds as a pretext to get something they want and are apparently content destabilizing the region in the process. look at what the japanese government has done to repay the war crime http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/nmnwe96.htmlDo you know the Japanese PM denied wartime 'comfort woman'? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544471/Japanese-PM-denies-wartime-comfort-women-were-forced.htmlOnly then he apologised when the international communities comdamned on him http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795448/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/japans-pm-apologizes-wwii-era-sex-slaves/His view on Class A war criminals were not war criminal based on domestic law and also tried to change japanese textbooks to downplay any 'negative words' with these crimes If japan don't want to atone for the sin, then what is happening right now is their own doing? There are tonnes of reasons for china to be so upset about these actions now, Japan purchasing the island GAVE China a reason to go so aggressive on it. Then a few weeks later it was some days that reminded Chinese of the japanese invasion, then recently the shrine is visited. Isn't it the same with Japan? why suddenly purchasing the island? political interest. Does the reason even matter? you call the behavior is not valid, that's coming from a not so valid action from Japan itself. Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China. Do you see any other country is siding with Japan saying the purchase is a reasonable one and won't cause any disruption in the region? How can you call our action is causing the destablising when Japan is the one who started it in the first place? If I warned you that I will not forgive you if you ever take a cent from a mutual fund of ours, and you just went ahead and take the whole fund out right in front of my face and claiming that you don't understand why I act so mad, who is the one causing all these disruption? Are you seriously going to blame on ME? there is no way you can deny japan started this whole heated hatred against japan in China itself. Who was the one to turn the relationship back to zero when both parties tried hard to repair the damage in the relationship The violence protests in China are all sparked by this, Chinese stars and government constantly tell everyone to protest peacefully. But China is huge, not everyone is well educated, they don't behave well when they realise Japan is acting as if the island is theirs and then seeing other events like visiting the shrine happening. You are entitled to your own opinion even if I disagree with some, so let me just keep my post to fact check. Maybe you intentionally made the sentence misleading, but PM has never denied the “existence” of comfort women. As anyone can tell by actually reading the link, PM denied the fact that Japanese Imperial Army forced them to become comfort women. Aside from a case in Indonesia, this statement seems true, so nothing is wrong with what Mr. Abe said. I don’t know a single Japanese politician who denies the fact that comfort women existed. It’s not like Abe retracted his earlier statement. Apology isn’t for his misstatement or anything. Apology was toward comfort women, which itself wasn’t a new thing from Japan.
Of cause China is not happy about it, but you are forgetting it's not just China, Taiwan is also not happy about it and even Korea is siding with China.
Korea is not siding with China on this issue. Depending on what source you use, Korean opinion is different. Some use “enemy’s enemy is friend” logic and others use “China’s expansionistic nature is also threat to Korea” logic. Since Korean government doesn’t side with either, saying Korea is siding with China is just a wish if not lie/ignorance. Other than these, I respect your opinion that is different from mine. The claim was that there is "no evidence" that the "comfort women" were taken with out "coercion". Everyone of the quoted portions is debated and accepted to be untrue or disingenuous. Denial of evidence, testimonies, trafficking, and ongoing documentation of inhumane treatment and sexual violence. The term comfort women itself is ludicrous and white washes what happened to these women. There was absolutely no "coercion" as many were dragged off with direct involvement from Japanese officers, and suggesting that any person would personally agree to an existence of violence and abuse with out possible venues to escape, any form of legal proceedings or prosecution of those responsible, is ridiculous. Here's the remark by Shintao Ishihara on August 24 of 2012. “There is no evidence that the comfort women were taken under coercion by the Japanese military. If Korea has this evidence it would be good to see it, prostitution is a good means of making money in times of difficulty, and the comfort women chose to do that.” There is so much documentation by allied forces (impartial to China and Japan) post WWII regarding this issue that saying there was "no evidence" or that these were "comfort women" and not sex slaves, or that they were taken of their own free will with out being lied to is fundamentally offensive to anyone who cares about human life or historical accuracy. You can look up an international judgement hosted in the Hague regarding this case "Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery". They confirmed it. There is also white washing that directly followed by Japan's Shinzo Abe (later prime minister) who left out the final judgement which incriminates Japan, prevented it from broadcasted in the NHK (Japan's major news network), as well as replacing incriminating testimony / evidence with an interview of "a specialist" who denies the entire tribunal's findings. Except that "comfort women chose to do that" isn't necessarily true for every single case, I find nothing wrong with Ishihara's statement. I hate Ishihara's political stance, but he is speaking the truth on this issue. There is no such evidence that shows Imperial Japanese Army's involvement in forced recruitment/coercion. I too would like to see the evidence if any. I don't know a case where women were dragged off by direct involvement by Japanese officers, except one case in Indonesia, not Korea. As far as I know, recruitment of prostitutes were done mostly by Korean pimps. I don't think everything was fair and square while recruiting, some were sold by their parents, but that doesn't mean Japanese Army coerced them to become comfort women. So, Abe and Ishihara's statements aren't wrong. The term confort women is the direct translation of Japanese term "Ian-fu" in English. It's not like Japan started using the term to downplay its history. So-called "Ian-fu" existed during Korean war for Amerian/Korean army as well, but hypocritically they use the term prostitutes only in their case. Comfort women were paid prostitutes, too , and Japan is sorry for creating the situation where people had to become such prostitutes, hence apology. Well... maybe do some research before making a statement that would offend many people who are permanently scarred from the affair. Lying to someone that they are going to get a perfectly respectable job then forcing them into prostitution, or "recruiting" local populations to do your dirty work for you doesn't relieve you of responsibility. You are still the prime instigator. Alot of this is so well documented that it dates back to right after the war was over and allied forces documented occupied Manchuria / Japan. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/IMTFE-8.html-1021- "They recruited women labour on the pretext of establishing factories. They forced the women thus recruited into prostitution with Japanese troops." Just as one example. Ikuhiko Hata who is one of the historians who dismiss these claims is under open criticism for academical dishonesty as well as lying by leading Japanese academics / authority figures regarding the subject, so I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. I mean this is a person who denies the first hand account of a veteran who is putting himself at risk for stating that he personally committed the act of forcing women to become prostitutes. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/08/world/japanese-veteran-presses-wartime-brothel-issue.htmlYou can also just search up the link which I've already posted. http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/womenstribunal2000/Judgement.pdfA 500 page report which details the findings and final judgement. Edit: this version contains 312 pages where as the final judgement contains around 200 in its original format. You can look through the evidence, there's entire sections devoted to the legitimacy of the evidence and how it was gathered and direct linkage to personnel with in the Japanese military. I don't now how it can get more black and white than this. The tribunal also included 6 prosecutors from Japan and the judgement was unanimous. Their apologies only come after public demands and serious potential damages to their political careers, nothing about it is principled and they refuse reparations or acknowledgement that they were even doing anything wrong at all. First they insisted it was local private entrepreneurs, then they insisted the women joined of their free will, then they insisted that the Japanese military had no hand in it even though that was the sole demographic that these women served, and nowadays they are saying that there was no "coercion". How much more bullshit political rhetoric do you need to throw on an issue where even the Japanese government's own estimate was that 100 to 200 thousand women were affected? Are you seriously telling me, that 100,000 ~200,000 women just got up one day and said, "there's a war going on and I have a family to take care of, I'm going to be abandon all that and be a prostitute for the occupying forces willingly instead of attempting to rebuild my home that they destroyed." And if you seriously argue that the purpose of the prostitution was a lack of resources due to the invasion thus they needed the income to rebuild their homeland, then that still paints Japan, the invading occupiers, as the primary reason for causing such suffering. The Japanese government refuses to take this responsibility. Also on close inspection the example of veteran testimony which I gave was a very poor one which has been personally admitted to be partially fabricated, I will however leave it in as critics often cite his opinion as an excuse to saying that non of these events took place any where. Other testimonies obviously exist and are sourced with in the other links I've given. Japan's official remarks also do not acknowledge the illegal nature of sexual abuse and assault these women sustained, and instead chalks it up to "a product of the times", arguing that these were legal prostitutes who had the ability to choose and quit or were entitled to any form of human rights let alone worker rights is indefensible any ways. Interesting Links. It's nice to finally see the evidence here that I asked other guys even a month ago. Thanks. Show nested quote +Ikuhiko Hata who is one of the historians who dismiss these claims is under open criticism for academical dishonesty as well as lying by leading Japanese academics / authority figures regarding the subject, so I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. I mean this is a person who denies the first hand account of a veteran who is putting himself at risk for stating that he personally committed the act of forcing women to become prostitutes. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/08/world/japanese-veteran-presses-wartime-brothel-issue.htmlAlso on close inspection the example of veteran testimony which I gave was a very poor one which has been personally admitted to be partially fabricated, I will however leave it in as critics often cite his opinion as an excuse to saying that non of these events took place any where. Other testimonies obviously exist and are sourced with in the other links I've given. The person who admits fabrication and says, "There is no profit in writing the truth in books. Hiding the facts and mixing them with your own assertions is something that newspapers do all the time too" counts for nothing as a credible source. Show nested quote +http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/womenstribunal2000/Judgement.pdfA 500 page report which details the findings and final judgement. Edit: this version contains 312 pages where as the final judgement contains around 200 in its original format. You can look through the evidence, there's entire sections devoted to the legitimacy of the evidence and how it was gathered and direct linkage to personnel with in the Japanese military. I don't now how it can get more black and white than this. The tribunal also included 6 prosecutors from Japan and the judgement was unanimous. Either my Adobe Reader is not working well, or the link doesn't work, so I only read the excerpt from organization's website. So-called "court" (when it is not) planned/held by private extreme left-wing organizations doesn't have legitimacy just like those planned by private extreme right-wing do not. 4 out of 6 so-called prosecutors from Japan were from the organization itself. While judgement is merely an opinion, I'm interested in evidence part. I can't comment on that before reading the full version. This one is legitimate. I think you should have only listed this one to keep credibility. I am reading deeper into IMTFE materials. In fact, there were some facts I didn't know before. As unfair as IMTFE was, Japan accepted the judgement of IMTFE according to San Francisco Treaty Article 11, so IMTFE judgement is relevant. Because Korea/China didn't sign/approve San Francisco Treary, this is mostly irrelevant for them (especially Korea), but Japan can't deny what's presented at IMTFE at least as an internal issue. To me, what treaty is signed and agreed is more important than what actually happened or who is offended. Factual or not, at least IMTFE judgement has to be the basis of Japan's standpoint as a law-abiding nation.
I know, I purposefully left that link in because it is the single case quoted repeatedly by revisionists who deny the entire event even occurring based on this one specific case. The historian also denies the testimony and evidence of numerous other sources, including the testimony of Indonesia / China which is already accepted as factual internationally. I did not edit it but instead left a note at the bottom because I'm admitting to my factual error.
The pdf on the link is over 20 mbs, download it instead of trying to load it in a browser window. Feel free to read it.
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On October 21 2012 09:04 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 08:29 RavenLoud wrote:On October 21 2012 08:19 Sub40APM wrote:On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance. Ya thats strange, considering, you know, thanks to China your country is divided and half of it is ruled by a family of insane weirdos. Or if the US had the balls to not give half of it to Soviet control at the end of WW2. You don't irritate your allies after a massive war.
After the war was already too late. However, by wanting to save short term costs at the end of the war rather than looking ahead at the obvious future enemy and by letting (and encouraging) the Soviets to invade Manchuria and Korea, the US's complacency during these precious few months has dramatically helped the communist agenda in Asia as well as ensuring the Korean war later on.
It's also largely thanks to the Soviet gifted equipments and infrastructure in Manchuria that the CCP finally managed to have a solid base to conquer the rest of China from. Before that, CCP armies were mostly poorly equipped peasants compared to the American supplied Nationalist party.
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Kwark's post in the OP is hardly worth quoting. Oh, Japan did horrible things? Akin to Nazi Germany? What about Europe and colonialism, are they bearing the great regret Germans do, or do they basically not think about it at all? What about Canadians and Aboriginal people's rights violations? What about the KKK in the US?
What a joke. No matter what, these things are always the acts of a few powerful people with special interests, carried out by a mass of uninformed idiots. Are you telling me China, country #1 for child labour and working its poor to death, is innocent? Please don't rationalize hate against an entire society. Every country produces wonderful things, and every country produces atrocities. What one we focus on is called the flavour of the month and the reason media and journalists are such irresponsible, sensationalist fucks. How good is it that cars of a Japanese make are flipped over? How misdirected, when that is a car owned by someone who probably works very hard, Japanese or Chinese.
You know what is akin to nazi Germany, Kwark? Rallying stupid people to scapegoat a demographic of people and blame them as the source of all your problems, threaten their livelihood, all for the gain of a wealthy few. How many Chinese are going to have better lives because of this? The very wealthiest?
It makes me angry to see someone try to justify such senseless hatred. The Japanese have suffered as much as they have hurt others. Do Germans show more respect to history? Maybe. The Germans also didn't get nuked. What are the Americans doing except saying they are the best country in the world? The most powerful? The best military? The freedom fighters? Yeah, Americans sure do repent for nuking civilians =/ Not that I think this is really what they have to do. I just want to point out that as far as countries regretting their history goes, Germany is unique. More because Hitler is so much better known than any other name in the history of war, than because Germans ought to inherit the shame of the nazi's for all time.
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On October 21 2012 08:19 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:37 Telcontar wrote:
Of course we're going to side with China. It's amazing how arrogant Japan is still capable of being after all they've done. I believe in second chances, but how is Japan going to change if they obfuscate the truth from themselves and their own children? They've done all manner of unspeakable things during their occupation of Korea, both known and buried, and still no apology or even acceptance. I know not all Japanese are like that, but from what I gather it's a small minority. The rest either don' care or agree with the government's stance. Ya thats strange, considering, you know, thanks to China your country is divided and half of it is ruled by a family of insane weirdos.
China didn't cause Korean War or responsible for the creation of North Korea. That's all the Soviet's fault.
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On October 21 2012 12:09 Chef wrote:
Kwark's post in the OP is hardly worth quoting. Oh, Japan did horrible things? Akin to Nazi Germany? What about Europe and colonialism, are they bearing the great regret Germans do, or do they basically not think about it at all? What about Canadians and Aboriginal people's rights violations? What about the KKK in the US?
What a joke. No matter what, these things are always the acts of a few powerful people with special interests, carried out by a mass of uninformed idiots. Are you telling me China, country #1 for child labour and working its poor to death, is innocent? Please don't rationalize hate against an entire society. Every country produces wonderful things, and every country produces atrocities. What one we focus on is called the flavour of the month and the reason media and journalists are such irresponsible, sensationalist fucks. How good is it that cars of a Japanese make are flipped over? How misdirected, when that is a car owned by someone who probably works very hard, Japanese or Chinese.
You know what is akin to nazi Germany, Kwark? Rallying stupid people to scapegoat a demographic of people and blame them as the source of all your problems, threaten their livelihood, all for the gain of a wealthy few. How many Chinese are going to have better lives because of this? The very wealthiest?
It makes me angry to see someone try to justify such senseless hatred. The Japanese have suffered as much as they have hurt others. Do Germans show more respect to history? Maybe. The Germans also didn't get nuked. What are the Americans doing except saying they are the best country in the world? The most powerful? The best military? The freedom fighters? Yeah, Americans sure do repent for nuking civilians =/ Not that I think this is really what they have to do. I just want to point out that as far as countries regretting their history goes, Germany is unique. More because Hitler is so much better known than any other name in the history of war, than because Germans ought to inherit the shame of the nazi's for all time.
I don't think Kwark went that far, he explains the source of anti-Japanese sentiments and why they would seem justified to a Chinese person. Then he says that it is regrettable that Japan has not dealt with their post WW2 self-reflection as well as Germany, and that it does not contribute to the long term stability of the region. He's not exactly wrong.
AFAIK, nobody so far defended the rioters, but a lot of people are saying "the actions of rioters are wrong, but the feelings behind them are understandable." I don't think that's the same thing as defending or justifying them, and that's where we disagree I suppose.
I agree it'll be best if we stop attributing traits to nations as if they are a faceless and uniform entity (or criticizing nations as if they are a faceless uniform entity because they were criticizing other nations as if they are a faceless uniform entity, lol).
There are wrongs here and there and everyone has them, they don't justify one another nor do they make criticisms against them invalid. People bringing up Tibet to defend the Japanese government or those bringing up WW2 to defend the riots are all doing it wrong.
EDIT:On October 21 2012 13:18 bioniK wrote:I find all this hatred to be quite obnoxious and feel that all it is doing is impeding the progress of Asian societies.
Well said.
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On October 20 2012 15:37 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 05:34 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 20 2012 04:12 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 03:48 Silvanel wrote:On October 20 2012 03:32 ETisME wrote:On October 20 2012 02:30 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah i tottaly agree with ZERG_RUSSIAN, i dont get why this hatred towards Japanese poeple should be justified. Theres tons unresolved crimes and tensions all over the world, either all "victims" in the world have the right to hatred and violence or none of them. I prefere the latter. The world will be a better place if we try to forgive.
Ps. I was really dissapointed by that remark by KwarK, glad i am not the only one. the world would be a stupid one if the country fail to acknowledge its mistake and downplaying it to its citizen. You obviously know very little about by how much Japan downplay some of their actions in their textbooks as well as visiting the shrine that is set up for rememberance of the soldiers of the imperial japan. If they need to be forgiven, they would need to show their determination of wanting to be forgiven. Maybe you are still young but forgiving DOES require one to make an effort, and not trying to downplay it and hope the other party get less upset and "forgive" him. And OP should also consider this on why China did not really take a strong approach to turn down the protest: China's economy had been facing a slowdown and any factories are shut down due to China is in the stage of economy restructuring into less dependant on manufacturing. The amount of corruption in the government as well as income disequality have both caused a lot of social unrest in China. It's a good chance for China to release their anger etc onto something that can unite it's people together, rather than putting it out on the government. But they have taken some steps in limiting the size of the protests, just not that much Japan isnt the only nor the biggest "World Criminal" that didnt atone for its sins. But when the other matters like that are being brought up on this very board the general response is "get over with it", so thats my response to Chinese "get over it" . I dont see how its ok for Chinese to show hatred and violence, but (for example) Armenians, Polish or Chechnyans are being ridiculed when they simply complain about similiar matters. One very common view from the Chinese is that China had been too soft on international political positions. Look back to China's history: It lost lands, resources from opium war where uk tried to force open up opium trade. Then invaded by the Eight-Nation Alliance in 1900 (in the name of protecting their people against the rebell group), lost lands and treasures, women raped etc then faced revolution Then WW2 loss from Japan China now has the economic power to stand up in the international stage, people EXPECT China to speak out to these continuous insult to the Chinese history, especially the visiting of shrine and obviously the island purchase is a big FU to China's face. Riots are one way to damage Japanese' economy and it has been successful. Wen Jiabao especially warned Japan NOT to do so a few years ago, which is one possible explaination why China is behaving so aggressively in this case. if "let it go" is the right attitude, then I am sure Taiwan would be first to "let it go" seeing how good relation they have with the Japanese. Whether they should "let it go" is upto the party affected, not by some other cases happened somewhere else in another time. So China destroying the lives of individuals who had nothing to do with it is okay? I understand Japan has had a horrible past. I wasn't us, and we are sorry, and we want to atone, but seriously, can we stop what's going on right now? Let's get along =/. The chinese aren't only angry about the past, they are also angry at how the jp government and people are dealing with this hurtful history between the 2 nations. Doing nothing does not mean they cannot do anything about their stance on the past. It might make them go back and study why Chinese are so anti japanese, they might go to the government and question their stance and their approach to how to resolve this issue and even why the fuck would you go out and buy up the island when it is surely going to cause dispute? It's a fricking stupidly naive way to get political vote. It's a big Fuck you to China's face. The Chinese, taiwan both are hurt in this action. If the japanese really want to atone and understand the history, where are the protest against this island purchase action? Visiting the shrine had been an issue always, did the local japanese really ever question this action and caused any change? if you are japanese, shouldn't you be blaming on the government stance and take on these issues. The problem is there isn't ANYONE in Japan who is doing ANYTHING about it and simply asking us to stop. China and Japan relationship was actually getting better a few years before and then this happened. Surely a country where it has more room to speak out and protest should be reacting strongly if they really want to atone their sin?
Have you or any of the other ridiculously anti-Japan posters read any of the previous 40 pages of this thread? I think it was made clear that due to church and state being seperated by the Americans at the end of WW2, the Yasukuni shrine is a seperate entity from the Japanese government. JAPAN CAN'T DO SHIT ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT HAS NOW ENSHRINED THE SOULS OF THE WAR CRIMINALS BECAUSE IT IS CONSIDERED SACRILEGE TO SEPERATE THE SOULS OF THE ENSHRINED. Also the Prime Minster's that have visited the shrine in recent history are: Junichiro Koizumi, and Shinzo Abe. The latter didn't even visit the shrine when he held office and only served one year in office due to severe unpopularity. The same PM that was mentioned in the link you posted about the Japanese PM that denied the coercion of comfort woman by the Imperial army(note he did not deny the existance of comfort woman). Recently a few members of the cabinet visited the shrine despite the current PM urging them not to.
As for the textbooks, have you or anyone else been to Japan and read their history books? As far as I'm considered the movement to rewrite history books and exclude mentions of the Nanjing Massacre and Unit 731 was ridiculously unpopular and was widely rejected by a great majority of Japanese school boards. Funny thing is the AP World History textbook that was used by my school district in the U.S made no mentions of Unit 731 and had a very brief mention of the Massacre of Nanjing.
Before you offer up a rebuttal, take my background into consideration. I'm a Korean-American who was raised by my grandmother that suffered quite a bit during the war, and I find all this hatred to be quite obnoxious and feel that all it is doing is impeding the progress of Asian societies.
Edit: BTW I found all this information by doing my own private research out of curiousity on my sick day(s). Instead of condemning an entire nation based on the notion that they are simply evil people that are worthy of your resentment, maybe you should do some deeper research and realize that many mediums of media today just want to keep you distracted by making headline stories that are taken out of societal context. Once again taking my background into consideration, I did this research because I found it really hard to believe that the Japanese People/Government are really evil and give no shits about the well being of the people that I recognize from being of the same ethnic group.
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Also OP, do you sincerely believe that a country that has a policy where it can't spend more than 1% of its total GDP on it's self defense force is in the wrong for having armed forces? Are you telling me that despite being neighbors with a country that boldly admits to possesing nuclear arms and is testing them, Japan has no right to have an army? Have people forgotten the shit that NK pulled 2 years ago when they sunk a South Korean warship and then blamed it on Japan?
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I don't know why Kwark's statement is such a big deal here. I disagree with his view, but I see nothing wrong with what he said. When violent riots happen, I don't think anyone on TL defend the act itself. For example, what Kwark said is virtually the same as "Muslim violence including killing of American ambassador to Lybya must be condemned, but anti-Amrican sentiment by muslims are not without its justifications." Nothing is wrong with such statements. Different people emphasize different aspect of the issue, so it's perfectly fine. Whether the post is quote worthy in the OP is another issue, but Shady Sands has pro-China opinion, so what do you expect? He merely introduced a perspective that is probably similar to his own, but never did he force others to have exactly the same perspective. I disagree and I personally think it is not quote worthy in the OP, but as an original poster, Shady Sands has the right to quote anything as long as it is not universally inappropriate. I have strongly disagreed with Shady Sands' opinions throughout this thread, but I gotta say that Shady Sands has done nothing wrong in the OP.
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EPT
