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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy |
On September 12 2012 22:31 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:30 Mephy wrote:On September 12 2012 22:16 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:12 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:05 Souma wrote:
I mean, honestly, people, what if it was your mom or dad people were broadcasting on television and publicly slandering and insulting? Would it be so fun then? I'm in no way justifying the murder of the Ambassador and other innocents, but you have to at least understand the general outrage against such things. No. How often do people kill and rampage in the US, because their parents are insulted on national TV? There is no justification for this. Stop making excuses for these primitive, religious nuts. No, we don't have to kill and rampage - we can sue people. But we're outraged nonetheless. We just don't kill people. But you admit, you wouldn't be too happy with it. And I did not justify the murders - read what I wrote. Thanks. Then what's your point? The fact that they can justify going on a murderous rampage is tied directly to the tenets of Islam. There have been quotes given in the previous page. The fact is Islam is a religion that enables it's followers to justify going on a murderous rampage like this. If you're talking about the quote made on page 4, it was taken completely out of context. “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.” (al-Baqarah 2:190-194) 0.001% of Muslim population would like to bomb the hell out of America. This 0.001% are motivated by their interpretations of the Quran. Hence, the Quran is an evil book that preaches violence, and all Muslims are violent people. Is this your logic? You're free to exercise your "freedom of speech" but I'm just saying you are pretty much embarrassing yourself with your hateful posts, pal. Problem is that theocracies are held by these 0.001% that may want to force to whole rest to actually follow their crazy speeches based on a book. Just like mein kampf
That would only happen if people continue to follow these stereotypes blindly. Even the Muslim population recognizes that this 0.001% are heretics and have condemned their actions. Why can't some non-Muslims do the same? Ironic isn't it?
Anyway, this thread is already filled with hate. I hope people will wake up and realize that they aren't doing anything constructive towards a more peaceful future.
Edit: On topic, this event is extremely saddening, and I admire the courage of people working in these turbulent areas.
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On September 12 2012 22:33 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:28 HeeroFX wrote:
I feel like this could lead to war. stuff like this doesn't lead to war from reasonable and countries that have any real standing in the world. If anything this will just cause america to never help lybia again until they apologize for it. we acidentaly bombed the chinese embassy in serbia when we were preventing a genocide and china didn't do anything to provoke a war with us.
While i would agree that this won't lead to war... There have been wars started over smaller incidents (but with bigger possible gains in the back)..
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On September 12 2012 22:32 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:26 GT3 wrote:On September 12 2012 22:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 21:56 GT3 wrote:On September 12 2012 21:47 Silidons wrote:On September 12 2012 21:39 GT3 wrote:
When talking about terrorists refrain from using the terms "Muslim" or "Islamist" the Qur'An clearly states that you are not allowed to harm innocents, suicide or even harm animals. But you're so brainwashed by your propaganda news channels that the illuminati happily provides for you. We ask one thing, and that is that you do not draw pictures of our prophets, the same with Jesus (Peace be upon him) who is also a muslim prophet, and Moses (PBUH) aswell. But no you get your facts about islam from anti-islam sites and propaganda channels, have you ever given it a thought that you could do research yourself and find the exact verses as they are in the Qur'An (www.quran.com)
I don't see you talking about Breivik here, but I guess that's just because he has blonde hair and no beard. Besides when depicting arabs stop drawing turbans on our heads, we don't wear turbans, that's what hindus do, just proves how uninformed you really are. So because someone draws a picture of the prophet, that means you can riot in the streets in outrage? Well this didn't take long for me to find: "And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." -Qur'an 2:191 Well it didn't take you long to make yourself look like a fool because you just pulled a verse out of context, you need to look at the entire Sura, "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." 2:190. I agree that you should kill transgressors any day, among them George W. Bush, and yes we muslims don't go around drawing pictures of other religions prophets, why should we experience this? You just got refuted so hard. Edit ; Since you just pulled a verse out of context, I'm going to type out the context so your simpleton brain can understand, mmkay? "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." there's more but this give you a little more picture, pulling it out of context makes it seem like we muslims should kill everyone, but this verse is referring to transgressors. Islam preaches self defense and forgiveness, either one of the two. God dislikes attackers and bullies, therefore you should not violate any innocent. However in war you don't hand out flowers, so if someone transgresses in war of course you should kill him, what would you suggest, giving him a massage? YOUGOTOWNED Yep, as you say, kill the transgressors. And kill Bush. But I thought you're against killing? Religion of peace, my ass. More like hypocritical murderers. As I said, the Quran preaches self defense, George W. Bush killed over 500 000 innocent Iraqi civilians and hurt many more. (www.iraqibodycount.org) this is a list of confirmed kills, uncorfimed kills estimates are 500 000-1 Million, and let's not talk about Abu Ghraib, the prison torture and humiliation of innocent Iraqi civilians. It seems that you're either a dyslectic or have a minor reading problem, I said the Qur'An teaches self defense, the least we can do is kill Bush, or would you rather 500 000 - 1 Million Australian or American civilians dying, the Qur'an preaches eye for an eye, but in Islam we are not allowed to kill innocents, we have morals and ethics, something you and the american government is severely lacking in. Self defense is kill or be killed. If you kill Bush, it's not going to stop the War in Iraq. So how is that self defense. It's not? It's vengeance. And what about the transgressors that you want to kill. Keep digging yourself deeper in a whole. All you've done is give excuses for murder. But keep saying Islam is a religion of peace. All your talk about killing people is really convincing me about just how peaceful Islam is.
If someone tried to kill me, you best believe I would try to kill them. Bush killed many hundred thousands, and he must pay for it with his blood, some choose to forgive as the way of the qur'an and some choose to take revenge. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is in the bible aswell. The war in Iraq is already over, they took all barrels of oil and overthrew our king Saddam Hussein to make the country fall like a domino, and like that isn't enough they appointed a Kurdish president, same with Saddam's trial, they appointed 3 different kurdish judges, like it's hard to find a 100% Iraqi these days. I'm not digging myself deeper, my arguments are simply better than yours, you feel like you're winning this discussion because everything I say goes into one ear and goes out the next, you're comfortable with being ignorant, that's your problem.
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To be honest I think it is quite the pig-headed attitude about the mohammed drawings. 20% of the world wishes you to not do it, why not just grant them the wish? Of course the muslim reaction is also retarded though.
You could be out drinking in a bar and of course exercise your right to make fun of somebody, it's a free country after all. Then he might proceed to kick your teeth in, which at the end will end him in court and you in a hospital. Now you can be like "fuck yeah I'm living in a free country" or you could just realize that it might be a retarded idea to make fun of him.
Besides in this case the movie is hardly the reason, it's just a trigger. Despite the sun burning on their heads all day long the people over there have common reason too. I think everybody knows why it is an understandable idea for people in that region to kill someone representing the US government. You might condemn the action but nobody with at least a little political knowledge would say that he doesn't understand why.
I think hardly any of the attacks have anything to do with religion. It is not the source of motivation, it just give absolution for your actions and it is easier on your consciousness.
It is a lot less insane to murder someone because you think or convince yourself that this is gods wish, then it is to murder someone because that is your presidents wish for strategic and economical reasons.
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GT3 is obviously a troll guys. Stop feeding him. He'll get banned as soon as a mod comes online and sees the reports.
Hes useing the eye for an eye quote. which anyone that knows anything about the passage knows was just jesus saying you shouldn't go kill 4 people and invade someones embassy just because someone from another country said something bad about your religious person.
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I think it takes a certain level of maturity to accept to be made fun of without gunning down innocent men.
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"our king saddam" ok you're a bad troll
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:40 Djzapz wrote:
I think it takes a certain level of maturity to accept to be made fun of without gunning down innocent men.
Takes as much maturity not to insult another person's livelihood.
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It just boggles my mind that:
1) People have to sit around and make cartoons/make fun of someone's religion. Do they seriously have nothing better to do?
2) People that feel that have been made fun of get all pissed off about it and start killing people because of it. It isn't very hard to just shrug it off and go on with life. Do they seriously have nothing better to do as well?
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On September 12 2012 22:39 Sermokala wrote:
GT3 is obviously a troll guys. Stop feeding him. He'll get banned as soon as a mod comes online and sees the reports.
Hes useing the eye for an eye quote. which anyone that knows anything about the passage knows was just jesus saying you shouldn't go kill 4 people and invade someones embassy just because someone from another country said something bad about your religious person.
Agreed, I actually took him seriously for a while, but after reading his last 5-6 replies he's blatently trolling
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On September 12 2012 22:41 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:40 Djzapz wrote:
I think it takes a certain level of maturity to accept to be made fun of without gunning down innocent men. Takes as much maturity not to insult another person's livelihood.
So you're saying insulting someone's "livelihood" and killing innocent men are essentially similar infractions?
My beliefs get insulted all day and I don't go berserk for it. I acknowledge that people will say things and some of them will be against me. Notably religious people oftentimes tell me that I'll go to hell and many of them seem to actually like the idea of me in what they seem to call eternal torment, is that not insulting my "livelyhood"? So by your reasoning, how am I not justified in crossing the street and killing some bystander out of rage? I don't even need to know who it is, I'll just kill them because some other people make fun of me.
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On September 12 2012 22:43 Poltergeist- wrote:
I just boggles my mind that:
1) People have to sit around and make cartoons/make fun of someone's religion. Do they seriously have nothing better to do?
2) People that feel that have been made fun of get all pissed off about it and start killing people because of it. It isn't very hard to just shrug it off and go on with life. Do they seriously have nothing better to do as well?
To be fair people bash Christianity all the time with various ways of doing it. the muslums have a problem with people drawing their religious guy so ofc people are going to draw it to insult them and to provoke them into doing stupid things to make them look worse and worse as time goes on.
Nothings there to justify it its just what it is.
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On September 12 2012 22:03 GT3 wrote:
I'm done with this discussion, it takes so much discussing to just make 1 person believe you, how about turning the world against the real enemy, it can't be done. American News Channels brainwash several hundred thousand people a day, I can't make that many people realise the truth in a day.
I'm just going to live my life being peaceful to everybody who is peaceful to me, however the Qur'An preaches the right for self defense so if you attack me, you best expect retaliation.
United States of Babylon shall fall!
This brainwashed Muslim thinks that his people killing innocent people is ok. Didn't you just say your religion was based on not killing the innocent and harming animals or somesh*t?
I hope we take action to the killing of a Ambassador, can't just let this slide.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:47 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:41 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:40 Djzapz wrote:
I think it takes a certain level of maturity to accept to be made fun of without gunning down innocent men. Takes as much maturity not to insult another person's livelihood. So you're saying insulting someone's "livelihood" and killing innocent men are essentially similar infractions? My beliefs get insulted all day and I don't go berserk for it. I acknowledge that people will say things and some of them will be against me. Notably religious people oftentimes tell me that I'll go to hell and many of them seem to actually like the idea of me in what they seem to call eternal torment, is that not insulting my "livelyhood"? So by your reasoning, how am I not justified in crossing the street and killing some bystander out of rage? I don't even need to know who it is, I'll just kill them because some other people make fun of me.
If you've read anything I've posted in this thread, you would know that I have repeatedly said that drawing Muhammad does not warrant the deaths of anyone. What I'm saying is, people have a right to be pissed; they do not, however, have the right to murder.
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On September 12 2012 22:31 Mephy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:27 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:15 Mephy wrote:
Some posts in here that call Islam a "violent religion" are really fucking depressing. And I'm not even Muslim, I'm Christian. I sincerely hope people are able to make the distinction between a violent religion and fanatical extremists.
Islam at its roots is no more violent than any other religion in the world. I ask those who claim that Islam preaches violence - where exactly in the Quran does it call out for Muslims to actively murder and kill other non-Muslims? I can assure you that there are much, much more passages committed to spreading the message of peace and forgiveness. And please, please don't take messages out of context like the idiot on the previous page.
Some of the Muslims may have acted out of anger that someone insulted their religion, and you can argue that their killing was motivated by their interpretation of Islam. But in that case, why aren't the rest of the 1.6 billion Muslims picking up their rocket launchers and going to war? You're looking at a very small group of fanatics (relatively) with their own warped interpretation of Islam, not the vast majority of the Muslim population, and then suddenly you decide its alright to label the entire Islamic religion as violent?
Want to stop the senseless killings and promote peace? Well you guys sure aren't helping with your uneducated comments. How about you start by understanding other religions and stop perpetuating these stereotypes? [3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do. [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. [9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement. Now that you've found those, why don't you compile a list of passages that talk about peace and equality? Then we can find some sort of ratio and determine if Islam is violent.
You act as if there is some sort of mental tug of war in the minds of these murderers and terrorists. But if you've actually watched any of their propaganda you'd know there is no such conflict, they are absolutely clear-headed that Islam and the Quran justifies suicide bombings and murders. The ratio of good-to-bad is not part of their mental calculus. Why do these people keep talking about Allah, Islam, and slaughtering infidels? Could it be because religion has everything to do with their reasoning?
And it is these types of hateful and intolerant teachings that allows them to justify to themselves why it is acceptable to kill someone else for blasphemy. If you deny that Islam is the primary source of their murderous outrage, then what is it?
You say that these murderers have a warped view of Islam. Then why aren't there similarly warped views of Christianity that leads to suicide bombings? Could it be that Islam is more forcefully intolerant and hateful than Christianity?
And in the face of these atrocities, what do you do? Nothing. No condemnation. You write as if we should just open our arms to accept these primitives who believe in a religion that calls for the murder of nonbelievers and blasphemers. Let's welcome these people who are from the most theocratic and intolerant places on planet Earth, pretending that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what they believe, despite the fact that this religion has bred suicide bombers, religious fanatics, and murderous mobs like nothing else in the modern world. What could possibly go wrong? Remember Madrid? London?
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Hitchens is turning in his grave.
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On September 12 2012 22:49 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:47 Djzapz wrote:On September 12 2012 22:41 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:40 Djzapz wrote:
I think it takes a certain level of maturity to accept to be made fun of without gunning down innocent men. Takes as much maturity not to insult another person's livelihood. So you're saying insulting someone's "livelihood" and killing innocent men are essentially similar infractions? My beliefs get insulted all day and I don't go berserk for it. I acknowledge that people will say things and some of them will be against me. Notably religious people oftentimes tell me that I'll go to hell and many of them seem to actually like the idea of me in what they seem to call eternal torment, is that not insulting my "livelyhood"? So by your reasoning, how am I not justified in crossing the street and killing some bystander out of rage? I don't even need to know who it is, I'll just kill them because some other people make fun of me. If you've read anything I've posted in this thread, you would know that I have repeatedly said that drawing Muhammad does not warrant the deaths of anyone. What I'm saying is, people have a right to be pissed; they do not, however, have the right to murder.
Well you did equate the immaturity of murdering innocents to that of drawing Muhammad - which in my sense is pretty messed up. But then again I'm one of those people who think freedom of speech should allow people to make jokes and criticize, even harshly, absolutely anything.
It's unfortunate that there are still people who can't deal with that.
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US President Obama to give 10:35 am ET statement on killing of US ambassador's death; Sec Clinton to attend
US officials tell @NBCNews that State Department has requested additional units of Marines be airlifted to Libya to bolster security at US embassy
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Israeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/israeli-filmmaker-in-hiding-after-anti-islam-movie-sparks-deadly-libya-egypt-protests-1.464459
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On September 12 2012 22:49 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 22:47 Djzapz wrote:On September 12 2012 22:41 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:40 Djzapz wrote:
I think it takes a certain level of maturity to accept to be made fun of without gunning down innocent men. Takes as much maturity not to insult another person's livelihood. So you're saying insulting someone's "livelihood" and killing innocent men are essentially similar infractions? My beliefs get insulted all day and I don't go berserk for it. I acknowledge that people will say things and some of them will be against me. Notably religious people oftentimes tell me that I'll go to hell and many of them seem to actually like the idea of me in what they seem to call eternal torment, is that not insulting my "livelyhood"? So by your reasoning, how am I not justified in crossing the street and killing some bystander out of rage? I don't even need to know who it is, I'll just kill them because some other people make fun of me. If you've read anything I've posted in this thread, you would know that I have repeatedly said that drawing Muhammad does not warrant the deaths of anyone. What I'm saying is, people have a right to be pissed; they do not, however, have the right to murder.
And why are you saying this? What's your point?
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