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On September 07 2012 00:57 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 00:48 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 00:47 red4ce wrote:On September 07 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 00:25 red4ce wrote:
I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing. Why? I consider the CCP to be the primary culprit in holding back the Chinese people from true greatness. What, then, good sir, would you consider to be a plausible alternative? The institution of peaceful democratic reforms and respect for human rights would be a good start. Embracing and celebrating the diversity of all Chinese peoples/customs/religions, etc rather than imposing Northern Han Chinese culture onto everyone would be nice too.
Have you ever been to China much? Because if you do, then you'd also realise that any talk of democracy is far too premature at this point in time. The government is not ready to hand over power, neither are the people ready to recieve it.
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On September 07 2012 01:03 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 00:57 Shady Sands wrote:
The level of Sinophobia and general retardation regarding China in this thread is just... rage-inducing Someone could have Wire-esque levels of understanding of China and enough PHD's to build a house, people would still bitch and moan that people "don't get it." Even experts are thrown at the side of the road by uneducated idiots that just want to make claims. Sinophobia, general retardation... The truth is that you won't permit anyone to be right about China, whether they are right or not is of no importance to that point.
What do you mean by this post?
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On September 07 2012 01:07 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:03 zalz wrote:On September 07 2012 00:57 Shady Sands wrote:
The level of Sinophobia and general retardation regarding China in this thread is just... rage-inducing Someone could have Wire-esque levels of understanding of China and enough PHD's to build a house, people would still bitch and moan that people "don't get it." Even experts are thrown at the side of the road by uneducated idiots that just want to make claims. Sinophobia, general retardation... The truth is that you won't permit anyone to be right about China, whether they are right or not is of no importance to that point. What do you mean by this post?
That China is one of those subjects where everyone that read more than 1 magazine article about it will scream
"YOU DONT GET CHINA!"
Even when it is the world's foremost expert on all things China.
It isn't a real reaction, it is just a knee-jerk reaction.
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On September 07 2012 01:04 Xiahou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 00:57 red4ce wrote:On September 07 2012 00:48 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 00:47 red4ce wrote:On September 07 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 00:25 red4ce wrote:
I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing. Why? I consider the CCP to be the primary culprit in holding back the Chinese people from true greatness. What, then, good sir, would you consider to be a plausible alternative? The institution of peaceful democratic reforms and respect for human rights would be a good start. Embracing and celebrating the diversity of all Chinese peoples/customs/religions, etc rather than imposing Northern Han Chinese culture onto everyone would be nice too. Have you ever been to China much? Because if you do, then you'd also realise that any talk of democracy is far too premature at this point in time. The government is not ready to hand over power, neither are the people ready to recieve it.
Democratic reform does not mean an overnight switch to Western style democracy. How would the foundations of democracy ever be established in China when the national curriculum is dictated by the ruling party and the people lack freedom of speech and freedom of assembly?
And I've been to China 3 times in the past 5 years, twice to Beijing and once to Hong Kong. Not that I see how it's relevant.
On September 07 2012 01:07 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:03 zalz wrote:On September 07 2012 00:57 Shady Sands wrote:
The level of Sinophobia and general retardation regarding China in this thread is just... rage-inducing Someone could have Wire-esque levels of understanding of China and enough PHD's to build a house, people would still bitch and moan that people "don't get it." Even experts are thrown at the side of the road by uneducated idiots that just want to make claims. Sinophobia, general retardation... The truth is that you won't permit anyone to be right about China, whether they are right or not is of no importance to that point. What do you mean by this post?
What he means is that accusing others of Sinophobia is a cop out. If you think someone is wrong, explain why he is wrong rather than hiding behind the 'you hate China' card. What people post here may be offensive to you, but offensiveness in of itself does not make a statement false.
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As an ignorant American (who doesn't know which of his Chinese classmates are from HK and which are from the mainland), I just wanted to thank the posters in this thread. It's been quite educational to hear all of the opinions and gain a slightly greater insight into what's going on in China. I find this issue to be absolutely fascinating.
For one thing, the US has a Department of Education which dictates some level of central planning for Kindergarten through 12th grade education. On the other hand, local municipalities are given nearly complete discretion over how everything is taught and beyond math, science, and English, discretion over what subjects to teach/focus on. I know there's plenty of bias/Americocentricity in the history courses we teach (particularly in early education), but that's generally implemented at the local level rather than at the national level. For years, Southern classrooms taught a very different version of the leadup/causes of the Civil War (aka "War of Northern Aggression" lulz) than was taught in the rest of the country. So while I can see the benefits of a centrally planned curriculum, I'm not sure I'd vote for it for anything outside of Math, Science, and literacy-related stuff.
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i know that people in HK think it's stupid that China wants to exert their influence over HK, but it's their land legally isn't it? as much as it sucks i don't think the west is going to go to war over it, since 1. it's china's right to do so, 2. the china is an integral part of the world's economy and 3. it's only HK, it's not like china is invading SK (they're not even invading HK, they just wanna change the education.. they're not changing economic policies yet as far as i can see)
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On September 07 2012 01:59 Endymion wrote:
i know that people in HK think it's stupid that China wants to exert their influence over HK, but it's their land legally isn't it? as much as it sucks i don't think the west is going to go to war over it, since 1. it's china's right to do so, 2. the china is an integral part of the world's economy and 3. it's only HK, it's not like china is invading SK (they're not even invading HK, they just wanna change the education.. they're not changing economic policies yet as far as i can see)
There is a thing called "One country two system", which means the government of Hong Kong can make decisions about most matters except like diplomacy, military etc...
Education is important...
Edit: One country 2 systems is a bit like how there is Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland in United Kingdom, and kinda like the different States in America.
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On September 07 2012 01:59 Endymion wrote:
i know that people in HK think it's stupid that China wants to exert their influence over HK, but it's their land legally isn't it? as much as it sucks i don't think the west is going to go to war over it, since 1. it's china's right to do so, 2. the china is an integral part of the world's economy and 3. it's only HK, it's not like china is invading SK (they're not even invading HK, they just wanna change the education.. they're not changing economic policies yet as far as i can see)
What does the size matter?
This is just so disgusting. These people are going to lose the freedoms that they care about, and they should just shut up and deal with it because they are only a small part?
What ever happened to individual freedom? Why exactly is their right to freedom any less crucial because they are a smaller group?
The people of HK don't want this, so by what right is the government rolling in and dictating that they have to hand over their rights?
You can't speak your mind because the rest of us has decided it isn't oke? Fuck that. One man has every right to fight the other 6 billion if they come for his freedom. The people of HK shouldn't take this, just because the majority of wolves has decided to eat the sheep.
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As someone who has worked in HK and Shenzhen, China (which is next to HK), I have come across, on occasion, HK Chinese who are really elitist and disrespectful towards mainland Chinese. The way they conform to social stigma is pretty obnoxious, especially when many of the faults they point out in mainland Chinese are exceedingly common in HK people themselves! Of course, I have also met many open minded HK people who adopt a more mature view of the situation and are more accepting of the social and economic changes that comes about as Hong Kong becomes more intertwined with China. Hopefully there will be less senseless hating and more mutual understanding between the 2 groups of people in the future.
On topic, I'm really out of touch of what's going on, everything is kind of vague at the moment. What is actually in that curriculum? Does it include poems singing praises of Mao  ? I mean, is it really hardcore propaganda or a somewhat accurate depiction of Chinese history? Also, did the Chinese government actually attempt to remove some of the rights that HK people enjoy?
^@zalz What freedom did the HK people lose?
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On September 07 2012 02:11 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:59 Endymion wrote:
i know that people in HK think it's stupid that China wants to exert their influence over HK, but it's their land legally isn't it? as much as it sucks i don't think the west is going to go to war over it, since 1. it's china's right to do so, 2. the china is an integral part of the world's economy and 3. it's only HK, it's not like china is invading SK (they're not even invading HK, they just wanna change the education.. they're not changing economic policies yet as far as i can see) What does the size matter? This is just so disgusting. These people are going to lose the freedoms that they care about, and they should just shut up and deal with it because they are only a small part? What ever happened to individual freedom? Why exactly is their right to freedom any less crucial because they are a smaller group? The people of HK don't want this, so by what right is the government rolling in and dictating that they have to hand over their rights? You can't speak your mind because the rest of us has decided it isn't oke? Fuck that. One man has every right to fight the other 6 billion if they come for his freedom. The people of HK shouldn't take this, just because the majority of wolves has decided to eat the sheep.
Do you really see this as black and white as that?
This isn't Hollywood. HK isn't being invaded by the Mongols. Geez, this whole thing is blown out of proportion from what I see, not sure that anyone in HK or China actually cares unless they have racist sentiments.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
The students who protest obviously care....
I don't really see it as blown out of proportion, the protester have more than enough reason to believe that "Brainwashing" is the intended goal. Whatever you want to say about the Chinese government right now, it is for sure not free and that more or less breach of "one country, two systems" is in my opinion just a warning of things to come.
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On September 07 2012 02:11 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:59 Endymion wrote:
i know that people in HK think it's stupid that China wants to exert their influence over HK, but it's their land legally isn't it? as much as it sucks i don't think the west is going to go to war over it, since 1. it's china's right to do so, 2. the china is an integral part of the world's economy and 3. it's only HK, it's not like china is invading SK (they're not even invading HK, they just wanna change the education.. they're not changing economic policies yet as far as i can see) What does the size matter? This is just so disgusting. These people are going to lose the freedoms that they care about, and they should just shut up and deal with it because they are only a small part? What ever happened to individual freedom? Why exactly is their right to freedom any less crucial because they are a smaller group? The people of HK don't want this, so by what right is the government rolling in and dictating that they have to hand over their rights? You can't speak your mind because the rest of us has decided it isn't oke? Fuck that. One man has every right to fight the other 6 billion if they come for his freedom. The people of HK shouldn't take this, just because the majority of wolves has decided to eat the sheep.
do you want someone to fight a war??? everyone criticizes the US, Canada, and the EU for exerting influence on other cultures but as soon as the west has a contractual obligation to not intervene (HK is chinese territory by definition..) everyones feathers get roused.. 1. yes size matters, however HK is a huge economic asset so it would be worth keeping free, but 2. China isn't doing anything wrong, they control HK.. it's none of the West's business to intervene and fight China over HK, which is why the British Empire didn't do it 15 years ago
btw your individual rights are decided by the government that prevails in your region, they're not inherently given to you by being born.
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On September 07 2012 02:22 Mephy wrote:On topic, I'm really out of touch of what's going on, everything is kind of vague at the moment. What is actually in that curriculum? Does it include poems singing praises of Mao ? I mean, is it really hardcore propaganda or actually a somewhat accurate depiction of Chinese history? Also, did the Chinese government actually attempt to remove some of the rights that HK people enjoy?
It's in the article the OP posted.
Chanting "No to brainwashing education. Withdraw national education", some 8000 people denounced a Hong Kong government-funded booklet entitled "The China Model" they say glorifies China's single Communist party rule while glossing over more brutal aspects of its rule and political controversies.
On September 07 2012 02:23 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:11 zalz wrote:On September 07 2012 01:59 Endymion wrote:
i know that people in HK think it's stupid that China wants to exert their influence over HK, but it's their land legally isn't it? as much as it sucks i don't think the west is going to go to war over it, since 1. it's china's right to do so, 2. the china is an integral part of the world's economy and 3. it's only HK, it's not like china is invading SK (they're not even invading HK, they just wanna change the education.. they're not changing economic policies yet as far as i can see) What does the size matter? This is just so disgusting. These people are going to lose the freedoms that they care about, and they should just shut up and deal with it because they are only a small part? What ever happened to individual freedom? Why exactly is their right to freedom any less crucial because they are a smaller group? The people of HK don't want this, so by what right is the government rolling in and dictating that they have to hand over their rights? You can't speak your mind because the rest of us has decided it isn't oke? Fuck that. One man has every right to fight the other 6 billion if they come for his freedom. The people of HK shouldn't take this, just because the majority of wolves has decided to eat the sheep. Do you really see this as black and white as that? This isn't Hollywood. HK isn't being invaded by the Mongols. Geez, this whole thing is blown out of proportion from what I see, not sure that anyone in HK or China actually cares unless they have racist sentiments.
These people look like they care.
![[image loading]](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02327/Hong-Kong_2327924b.jpg)
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True, can't they just get up and make their own version of the curriculum? Doesn't need to be "All hail the motherland and the generous CCP" (which doesn't fool anyone with a brain in China anyway), but it's not as if learning history is a great loss of freedom and a slippery slope to Stalinism.
China's definitively not free or open, but the dynamic of the past decades has been overall positive imo. 30 years down the road, I wouldn't be surprised if democracy comes up...that or a total collapse and civil war like in Syria, and I think people would even prefer the CCP over reliving the 1920s again.
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On September 07 2012 02:34 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:22 Mephy wrote:On topic, I'm really out of touch of what's going on, everything is kind of vague at the moment. What is actually in that curriculum? Does it include poems singing praises of Mao ? I mean, is it really hardcore propaganda or actually a somewhat accurate depiction of Chinese history? Also, did the Chinese government actually attempt to remove some of the rights that HK people enjoy? It's in the article the OP posted. Show nested quote +Chanting "No to brainwashing education. Withdraw national education", some 8000 people denounced a Hong Kong government-funded booklet entitled "The China Model" they say glorifies China's single Communist party rule while glossing over more brutal aspects of its rule and political controversies.
I see. If the curriculum really is a biased review of the CCP, I hope that the HK government recognizes the futility of implementing something like this. Even students in China don't buy into the history taught to them in classrooms.
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I've always liked HK's presence in China the way it is. They always stood out as this strange co-existing contrast to the rest of China (with exception of a few provinces).
What's considered propaganda and what's considered objective education is also a subjective judgement. I arbitrarily consider all education of history, language, culture and arts to be propanganda and completely biased. If national education is applied, then the HK society in the a couple decades will become more cohesive and unified than it is now. Of course the current population would protest against it. It is their future that's being over-written.
As much sense as it makes for any nation would try to apply national education, HK being a near-standalone society is a gem for China and this is going to erase that, for better or for worse. I personally don't like it.
Generally, I am pro- for preservation of culture.
-===-
And quit it with the stupid insults about mainlander's social behaviours. It's only making you guys look like an idiot. Like as if education is going to somehow teach you how you behave. The way people act are influenced by those around them. I don't see how taking a shit on a train is influenced by chinese history/politics or whatever examples of 'barbarism' you guys bring up.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
The problem with the Executive branch of gov in Hong kong is that it basically already submitted to the central government in Beijing, there are pretty much nothing else but an extended arm of the CCP. Which makes having an "own version" of the curriculum pretty hard as hong kong's government follows beijing in that regard. Learning history in itself is nothing bad obviously, but it matters how it is teached. Why do you think did the totalitarian governments of the past always aimed to control the education as soon as possible? If you are taught to be sheep from the beginning it is much easier for the ruling class to have you stay content with the way you are.
The dynamics of the last couple decades have been positive yes, but as you can see the power struggle that is happening right now within the CCP about the succession you can easily see the inherent flaws of the current system. 30years is quite optimistic from my point of view (I am biased though as taiwanese anyway). That would only amount to 3 leadership cycles and I doubt that it would be enough to let a pro-democracy faction win enough support within the CCP, which would be needed for democratisation.
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On September 07 2012 02:40 Mephy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:34 red4ce wrote:On September 07 2012 02:22 Mephy wrote:On topic, I'm really out of touch of what's going on, everything is kind of vague at the moment. What is actually in that curriculum? Does it include poems singing praises of Mao ? I mean, is it really hardcore propaganda or actually a somewhat accurate depiction of Chinese history? Also, did the Chinese government actually attempt to remove some of the rights that HK people enjoy? It's in the article the OP posted. Chanting "No to brainwashing education. Withdraw national education", some 8000 people denounced a Hong Kong government-funded booklet entitled "The China Model" they say glorifies China's single Communist party rule while glossing over more brutal aspects of its rule and political controversies. I see. If the curriculum really is a biased review of the CCP, I hope that the HK government recognizes the futility of implementing something like this. Even students in China don't buy into the history taught to them in classrooms.
I don't think that's necessarily true. My cousin learned more about Chinese history while studying in the US than she did throughout her high school education in China. I mean, they didn't even know about the Tiananmen Square massacre...
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On September 07 2012 01:44 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:07 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 01:03 zalz wrote:On September 07 2012 00:57 Shady Sands wrote:
The level of Sinophobia and general retardation regarding China in this thread is just... rage-inducing Someone could have Wire-esque levels of understanding of China and enough PHD's to build a house, people would still bitch and moan that people "don't get it." Even experts are thrown at the side of the road by uneducated idiots that just want to make claims. Sinophobia, general retardation... The truth is that you won't permit anyone to be right about China, whether they are right or not is of no importance to that point. What do you mean by this post? That China is one of those subjects where everyone that read more than 1 magazine article about it will scream "YOU DONT GET CHINA!" Even when it is the world's foremost expert on all things China. It isn't a real reaction, it is just a knee-jerk reaction.
Once upon a time, there was a guy who wrote a book called "The coming collapse of China," and said they'll collapse in 5 years due to their inability to remain competitive as they open to the WTO. That was in 2001. That man's name is Gordon G. Chang. I personally have a rule of thumb, you're an idiot if you think you can predict the future more than 6 months...
That said, this guy was the speaker of an online debate for The Economist and he was presented as the world's foremost expert on China.
There are people who know China really really well. The problem is that most people don't know who they are and their reputation which leads to experts being passed off as experts. This happens way way too often which leads to why a lot of people say these things when people talk about China.
P.S. If you really want to understand China then the most credible and obvious people in the West that know about China are obviously Jon Huntsman, and Kevin Rudd. They actually speak fluent mandarin too. =D The only reason I'm pointing these guys out are because if I point out other experts, you wouldn't believe me since they're more unknown.
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Yeah sucks for HK  , but tbh even if there's no official doctrine or rule in the US school system to do something similar with US history, lower level American history (below college level) is pretty much a patriotic circlejerk as well. But, I guess that's still quite a bit different than enforcing such "education" onto children.
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EPT
