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On September 06 2012 18:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 18:24 Newbistic wrote:On September 06 2012 18:18 KwarK wrote:
They're in the unfortunate position of having sovereignty in their state essentially handed over to a foreign nation with a totalitarian government. They're fucked.
They're right to protest, their history is one of a liberal colonial western system and being told they need to learn to conform with the antithesis of that is horrible. A "foreign nation"? That's certainly a British way of looking at it lol. I don't support the HK government's decision but "handed back" would be a lot more accurate than "handed over" in this case. It's been one hundred and fifty years. China today would be unrecognisable to the China that HK was previously a part of. I don't dispute that the initial seizure was an illegitimate act of imperialism and I have no desire to defend the 19th Century British record in China. However the people for whom it would be "handing back" are long dead, as is the China they would be "handing back" to. My concern is with the people alive today for whom modern China is an alien system.
Might be wrong, might be some James Clavell novel, but wasn't Hong-Kong property rights ceeded to Great Britain for a long period of time in a trade agreement?
I
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On September 06 2012 21:16 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 20:45 shadymmj wrote:On September 06 2012 20:09 epicanthic wrote:On September 06 2012 19:25 Williammm wrote:
I disagree with your position. Name a single piece of history which isn't biased? There is no such thing as objectively sound history, because it is always going to be the interpretation of the person writing it. Secondly, it is hard to avoid other opinions of what happened in China, because information is as free in HK as it is in the rest of the Western world.
So your opposition of the scheme being brainwashing doesn't really make too much sense in a place like HK.
Also your prediction that people in HK will just flee China when the time came to completely convert the city into the Chinese system. It already happened prior to the 1997 handover, and what happened was people from the mainland coming down to fill the positions. Economic stability didn't change as Hong Kong is still the Asian centre for financial and accounting activities. You could argue that HK is worse off than it was prior to the handover, but I would point you towards the 1972 and 1988 stock crashes that severely lowered wages and increased unemployment that HK is still trying to recover from.
This is just news turned fox news turned pitchfork witching hunting The people are great, everyone living in China are amazing individuals, but the Chinese government itself can go fuck itself (and then censor it out!). No offense to the people, plenty of offense to the government. I beg to differ, I encounter a great many mainlanders who are rude, loud, lacking in social graces, boorish, tasteless, ignorant, and see the need to wear brand name clothing head-to-toe that shove logos in your face. Obviously not all of them are like this, I have a couple of mainland friends they are very decent people (although hardly average - they're more bohemian folks), but there are so many of the former that they tend to eclipse the latter. Behavior like that is not limited to any particular ethnicity...
Obsession with brands is just a very Asian thing in general. I'm pretty sure Japan wins if we do an LV per capital comparison. lol...
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On September 06 2012 23:05 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 21:16 Shady Sands wrote:On September 06 2012 20:45 shadymmj wrote:On September 06 2012 20:09 epicanthic wrote:On September 06 2012 19:25 Williammm wrote:
I disagree with your position. Name a single piece of history which isn't biased? There is no such thing as objectively sound history, because it is always going to be the interpretation of the person writing it. Secondly, it is hard to avoid other opinions of what happened in China, because information is as free in HK as it is in the rest of the Western world.
So your opposition of the scheme being brainwashing doesn't really make too much sense in a place like HK.
Also your prediction that people in HK will just flee China when the time came to completely convert the city into the Chinese system. It already happened prior to the 1997 handover, and what happened was people from the mainland coming down to fill the positions. Economic stability didn't change as Hong Kong is still the Asian centre for financial and accounting activities. You could argue that HK is worse off than it was prior to the handover, but I would point you towards the 1972 and 1988 stock crashes that severely lowered wages and increased unemployment that HK is still trying to recover from.
This is just news turned fox news turned pitchfork witching hunting The people are great, everyone living in China are amazing individuals, but the Chinese government itself can go fuck itself (and then censor it out!). No offense to the people, plenty of offense to the government. I beg to differ, I encounter a great many mainlanders who are rude, loud, lacking in social graces, boorish, tasteless, ignorant, and see the need to wear brand name clothing head-to-toe that shove logos in your face. Obviously not all of them are like this, I have a couple of mainland friends they are very decent people (although hardly average - they're more bohemian folks), but there are so many of the former that they tend to eclipse the latter. Behavior like that is not limited to any particular ethnicity... Obsession with brands is just a very Asian thing in general. I'm pretty sure Japan wins if we do an LV per capital comparison. lol...
Agreed, esp trophy wives with no job no kids and their husbands spend half their time away on business.
Once met a lady who had an entire apartment unit in Hong Kong as her fucking wardrobe.
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On September 06 2012 23:11 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 23:05 Cambium wrote:On September 06 2012 21:16 Shady Sands wrote:On September 06 2012 20:45 shadymmj wrote:On September 06 2012 20:09 epicanthic wrote:On September 06 2012 19:25 Williammm wrote:
I disagree with your position. Name a single piece of history which isn't biased? There is no such thing as objectively sound history, because it is always going to be the interpretation of the person writing it. Secondly, it is hard to avoid other opinions of what happened in China, because information is as free in HK as it is in the rest of the Western world.
So your opposition of the scheme being brainwashing doesn't really make too much sense in a place like HK.
Also your prediction that people in HK will just flee China when the time came to completely convert the city into the Chinese system. It already happened prior to the 1997 handover, and what happened was people from the mainland coming down to fill the positions. Economic stability didn't change as Hong Kong is still the Asian centre for financial and accounting activities. You could argue that HK is worse off than it was prior to the handover, but I would point you towards the 1972 and 1988 stock crashes that severely lowered wages and increased unemployment that HK is still trying to recover from.
This is just news turned fox news turned pitchfork witching hunting The people are great, everyone living in China are amazing individuals, but the Chinese government itself can go fuck itself (and then censor it out!). No offense to the people, plenty of offense to the government. I beg to differ, I encounter a great many mainlanders who are rude, loud, lacking in social graces, boorish, tasteless, ignorant, and see the need to wear brand name clothing head-to-toe that shove logos in your face. Obviously not all of them are like this, I have a couple of mainland friends they are very decent people (although hardly average - they're more bohemian folks), but there are so many of the former that they tend to eclipse the latter. Behavior like that is not limited to any particular ethnicity... Obsession with brands is just a very Asian thing in general. I'm pretty sure Japan wins if we do an LV per capital comparison. lol... Agreed, esp trophy wives with no job no kids and their husbands spend half their time away on business. Once met a lady who had an entire apartment unit in Hong Kong as her fucking wardrobe.
On the flip side, these ladies are easy pickings if you have bedroom prowess and quick hands. I know of one particularly enterprising ex-banker who slept his way through a whole bunch of trophy wives while stealing/fencing all their shit. Then he reinvested the proceeds into drugs which he sold back to the wives... on top of filming them naked/drugged up so that when they found out about his habits, they couldn't do jack.
Most awesome i-banker exit opportunity I have ever come across. A pity he got arrested though
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United States44432 Posts
On September 06 2012 22:58 tertos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 18:45 KwarK wrote:On September 06 2012 18:24 Newbistic wrote:On September 06 2012 18:18 KwarK wrote:
They're in the unfortunate position of having sovereignty in their state essentially handed over to a foreign nation with a totalitarian government. They're fucked.
They're right to protest, their history is one of a liberal colonial western system and being told they need to learn to conform with the antithesis of that is horrible. A "foreign nation"? That's certainly a British way of looking at it lol. I don't support the HK government's decision but "handed back" would be a lot more accurate than "handed over" in this case. It's been one hundred and fifty years. China today would be unrecognisable to the China that HK was previously a part of. I don't dispute that the initial seizure was an illegitimate act of imperialism and I have no desire to defend the 19th Century British record in China. However the people for whom it would be "handing back" are long dead, as is the China they would be "handing back" to. My concern is with the people alive today for whom modern China is an alien system. Might be wrong, might be some James Clavell novel, but wasn't Hong-Kong property rights ceeded to Great Britain for a long period of time in a trade agreement? I
It was a period of gunboat diplomacy, agreements were coercive.
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United States44432 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:16 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 23:11 S_SienZ wrote:On September 06 2012 23:05 Cambium wrote:On September 06 2012 21:16 Shady Sands wrote:On September 06 2012 20:45 shadymmj wrote:On September 06 2012 20:09 epicanthic wrote:On September 06 2012 19:25 Williammm wrote:
I disagree with your position. Name a single piece of history which isn't biased? There is no such thing as objectively sound history, because it is always going to be the interpretation of the person writing it. Secondly, it is hard to avoid other opinions of what happened in China, because information is as free in HK as it is in the rest of the Western world.
So your opposition of the scheme being brainwashing doesn't really make too much sense in a place like HK.
Also your prediction that people in HK will just flee China when the time came to completely convert the city into the Chinese system. It already happened prior to the 1997 handover, and what happened was people from the mainland coming down to fill the positions. Economic stability didn't change as Hong Kong is still the Asian centre for financial and accounting activities. You could argue that HK is worse off than it was prior to the handover, but I would point you towards the 1972 and 1988 stock crashes that severely lowered wages and increased unemployment that HK is still trying to recover from.
This is just news turned fox news turned pitchfork witching hunting The people are great, everyone living in China are amazing individuals, but the Chinese government itself can go fuck itself (and then censor it out!). No offense to the people, plenty of offense to the government. I beg to differ, I encounter a great many mainlanders who are rude, loud, lacking in social graces, boorish, tasteless, ignorant, and see the need to wear brand name clothing head-to-toe that shove logos in your face. Obviously not all of them are like this, I have a couple of mainland friends they are very decent people (although hardly average - they're more bohemian folks), but there are so many of the former that they tend to eclipse the latter. Behavior like that is not limited to any particular ethnicity... Obsession with brands is just a very Asian thing in general. I'm pretty sure Japan wins if we do an LV per capital comparison. lol... Agreed, esp trophy wives with no job no kids and their husbands spend half their time away on business. Once met a lady who had an entire apartment unit in Hong Kong as her fucking wardrobe. On the flip side, these ladies are easy pickings if you have bedroom prowess and quick hands. I know of one particularly enterprising ex-banker who slept his way through a whole bunch of trophy wives while stealing/fencing all their shit. Then he reinvested the proceeds into drugs which he sold back to the wives... on top of filming them naked/drugged up so that when they found out about his habits, they couldn't do jack. Most awesome i-banker exit opportunity I have ever come across. A pity he got arrested though
It's a pity that the drug dealer who seduced rich women in order to get them hooked on drugs so he could take their money and then blackmail them got arrested?
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On September 07 2012 00:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 23:16 Shady Sands wrote:On September 06 2012 23:11 S_SienZ wrote:On September 06 2012 23:05 Cambium wrote:On September 06 2012 21:16 Shady Sands wrote:On September 06 2012 20:45 shadymmj wrote:On September 06 2012 20:09 epicanthic wrote:On September 06 2012 19:25 Williammm wrote:
I disagree with your position. Name a single piece of history which isn't biased? There is no such thing as objectively sound history, because it is always going to be the interpretation of the person writing it. Secondly, it is hard to avoid other opinions of what happened in China, because information is as free in HK as it is in the rest of the Western world.
So your opposition of the scheme being brainwashing doesn't really make too much sense in a place like HK.
Also your prediction that people in HK will just flee China when the time came to completely convert the city into the Chinese system. It already happened prior to the 1997 handover, and what happened was people from the mainland coming down to fill the positions. Economic stability didn't change as Hong Kong is still the Asian centre for financial and accounting activities. You could argue that HK is worse off than it was prior to the handover, but I would point you towards the 1972 and 1988 stock crashes that severely lowered wages and increased unemployment that HK is still trying to recover from.
This is just news turned fox news turned pitchfork witching hunting The people are great, everyone living in China are amazing individuals, but the Chinese government itself can go fuck itself (and then censor it out!). No offense to the people, plenty of offense to the government. I beg to differ, I encounter a great many mainlanders who are rude, loud, lacking in social graces, boorish, tasteless, ignorant, and see the need to wear brand name clothing head-to-toe that shove logos in your face. Obviously not all of them are like this, I have a couple of mainland friends they are very decent people (although hardly average - they're more bohemian folks), but there are so many of the former that they tend to eclipse the latter. Behavior like that is not limited to any particular ethnicity... Obsession with brands is just a very Asian thing in general. I'm pretty sure Japan wins if we do an LV per capital comparison. lol... Agreed, esp trophy wives with no job no kids and their husbands spend half their time away on business. Once met a lady who had an entire apartment unit in Hong Kong as her fucking wardrobe. On the flip side, these ladies are easy pickings if you have bedroom prowess and quick hands. I know of one particularly enterprising ex-banker who slept his way through a whole bunch of trophy wives while stealing/fencing all their shit. Then he reinvested the proceeds into drugs which he sold back to the wives... on top of filming them naked/drugged up so that when they found out about his habits, they couldn't do jack. Most awesome i-banker exit opportunity I have ever come across. A pity he got arrested though It's a pity that the drug dealer who seduced rich women in order to get them hooked on drugs so he could take their money and then blackmail them got arrested?
Because I was trying to meet him to pick up a mental snapshot. He would have made an excellent supporting character for the script I'm trying to write
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I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing.
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I support Hong Kong's right to be independent and condemns China's foreign policy, but Hong Kong is not exactly an angel either.
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On September 07 2012 00:25 red4ce wrote:
I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing.
Why?
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On September 06 2012 19:26 Xpace wrote:
China needs to back the fuck off. Nobody wants them here.
I'm sick of China calling us "British dogs", who have lost "our sense of what it means to be Chinese", yet at the same time every mainlander I know wants a piece of Hong Kong (for reference, mainlander is a Chinese from China). They buy tons of property from their "government-approved spending money", essentially turning the city into their own game of monopoly, without caring about what makes Hong Kong the city that it is.
If China really sees us as "paperdoll Chinese" (quoted from CCTV), then why are there hundreds of women crossing our border everyday, waiting to give birth so their children can have HONG KONG PASSPORTS? Why do so many mainland families want to move to Hong Kong, even today? Mind you, we're talking about the RICH and the ELITE families, the 1% (or in China, the 0.001%).
I haven't seen a single star in the sky for over 10 years in Hong Kong because of pollution from China. I haven't gone one day outside without seeing a mainlander spit in the street, or pick his nose and wipe it on bus/train railings. I haven't had one lunch or dinner at a restaurant where there's a mainlander and he or she isn't yelling over our table when he's on the freakin' phone. I haven't been able to shop at a EUROPEAN BRAND store without having to line up because all these mainlanders come to Hong Kong to spend all their dirty money. Sorry, but there's no way you can convince that the mainlanders I see every single fucking day aren't barbaric. They have no respect for people around them, they are uneducated, they have no shame, no tolerance, no common manners (like putting your hand over your mouth when you cough or sneeze), they don't follow public order whatsoever.
I challenge anyone who doesn't believe me to spend ONE day in Hong Kong, and you will see what I mean. I've had friends from all over the world (Africa excluded :\) and when they visit, they all say the same thing. "Hong Kong is a class A world city, like London, Paris, but the mainlanders are really fucking things up".
I heard they were going to do something about those people who cross the border to give birth to get an identity predicament.
Went there on vacation a few years ago and those mainlanders are definitely barbarians.
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On September 07 2012 00:39 forestry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 19:26 Xpace wrote:
China needs to back the fuck off. Nobody wants them here.
I'm sick of China calling us "British dogs", who have lost "our sense of what it means to be Chinese", yet at the same time every mainlander I know wants a piece of Hong Kong (for reference, mainlander is a Chinese from China). They buy tons of property from their "government-approved spending money", essentially turning the city into their own game of monopoly, without caring about what makes Hong Kong the city that it is.
If China really sees us as "paperdoll Chinese" (quoted from CCTV), then why are there hundreds of women crossing our border everyday, waiting to give birth so their children can have HONG KONG PASSPORTS? Why do so many mainland families want to move to Hong Kong, even today? Mind you, we're talking about the RICH and the ELITE families, the 1% (or in China, the 0.001%).
I haven't seen a single star in the sky for over 10 years in Hong Kong because of pollution from China. I haven't gone one day outside without seeing a mainlander spit in the street, or pick his nose and wipe it on bus/train railings. I haven't had one lunch or dinner at a restaurant where there's a mainlander and he or she isn't yelling over our table when he's on the freakin' phone. I haven't been able to shop at a EUROPEAN BRAND store without having to line up because all these mainlanders come to Hong Kong to spend all their dirty money. Sorry, but there's no way you can convince that the mainlanders I see every single fucking day aren't barbaric. They have no respect for people around them, they are uneducated, they have no shame, no tolerance, no common manners (like putting your hand over your mouth when you cough or sneeze), they don't follow public order whatsoever.
I challenge anyone who doesn't believe me to spend ONE day in Hong Kong, and you will see what I mean. I've had friends from all over the world (Africa excluded :\) and when they visit, they all say the same thing. "Hong Kong is a class A world city, like London, Paris, but the mainlanders are really fucking things up". I heard they were going to do something about those people who cross the border to give birth to get an identity predicament. Went there on vacation a few years ago and those mainlanders are definitely barbarians.
How so? Please explain how the mainlanders you saw are barbarians.
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This discussion has been very interesting and informative so far, I had no idea what was going on in terms of Hong Kong/Mainland China relations.
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On September 07 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 00:25 red4ce wrote:
I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing. Why?
I consider the CCP to be the primary culprit in holding back the Chinese people from true greatness.
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On September 07 2012 00:47 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 00:25 red4ce wrote:
I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing. Why? I consider the CCP to be the primary culprit in holding back the Chinese people from true greatness.
What, then, good sir, would you consider to be a plausible alternative?
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I've known alot of nice people from mainland China in my time, but I've met my share of ignorant, unpleasant and unbearably jingoistic mainlanders as well.
I'm not even a sensitive person, but the superiority complex projected by a significant number of mainland scholars in my school is both offensive (to some) and confounding (to all) at the same time. Makes it impossibly hard for me to get along with any of them.
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On September 07 2012 00:48 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 00:47 red4ce wrote:On September 07 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:On September 07 2012 00:25 red4ce wrote:
I'll be rooting for you Hong Kong. Anything that subverts CCP power can only be a good thing. Why? I consider the CCP to be the primary culprit in holding back the Chinese people from true greatness. What, then, good sir, would you consider to be a plausible alternative?
The institution of peaceful democratic reforms and respect for human rights would be a good start. Embracing and celebrating the diversity of all Chinese peoples/customs/religions, etc rather than imposing Northern Han Chinese culture onto everyone would be nice too.
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The level of Sinophobia and general retardation regarding China in this thread is just... rage-inducing
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Are they forced to learn gok yuu?
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On September 07 2012 00:57 Shady Sands wrote:
The level of Sinophobia and general retardation regarding China in this thread is just... rage-inducing
Someone could have Wire-esque levels of understanding of China and enough PHD's to build a house, people would still bitch and moan that people "don't get it."
Even experts are thrown at the side of the road by uneducated idiots that just want to make claims.
Sinophobia, general retardation...
The truth is that you won't permit anyone to be right about China, whether they are right or not is of no importance to that point.
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EPT
