On September 07 2012 02:56 InvXXVII wrote: Well this is how I see it. I've been in Canada since I was 3 months old. More precisely, I've been living in Quebec and my winter semester has been delayed and is scheduled to end at the end of September, while my fall semester is due to start in October. On the other hand, I am also a Hong Kong resident and I go back to HK often enough (I'm born in HK, I have the right to work there, use medicare system, vote, etc.).
The two protests are very different one from another. The (now cancelled) Quebec tuition hike would have brought very little change to social well being, general levels of education, Que.'s economic standing, etc. Even with the tuition hikes, there would still have been more people applying to universities than there are spots in universities. One of the party leaders, Francois Legault, said that if Quebec students worked as hard as Asians did, they would whine less about the hike, work harder, and get better jobs. Personally, I don't think that his claim is without truth, but I shall not argue about that. Point is, the tuition hike would have done nothing to decrease the well being of Quebec residents.
HK's protesting students, on the other hand, are trying to defend their very identity as Hong Kongnese. If anyone knows anything about China at all, they should also know that "national studies" has nothing to do with "objectively true" Chinese history and accomplishments. Chinese history according to the Chinese is full of propaganda and blown out of proportion acts of altruism/heroism/godliness/etc. Thus, what HK students are really trying to do is to prevent assimilation. HK is an awesome place. I consider it to be my home. We have a very unique culture (being Chinese and having being influenced by the west through the British Empire), we have a great economy, we have a very unique history. We do not want to be assimilated and become like the rest of China. We do not want to lose our heritage. This is why the HK protest is, for a lack of a better word, "better and more valid".
Unfortunately, China is very unlikely to react to HK ppl protesting. Unless HK students manage to draw significant international attention that is...
There are obviously certain posters in this thread that don't understand that. They don't see what you see. They don't feel what you feel. They think Hong Kong is just a glorified city full of these wild, Chinese people that don't hate westerners and speak a different language (what is this, English? How demonic!), and have their own set of strange, weird laws that promote human rights and don't conform with backward PRC values. They don't realize that their intentions for Hong Kong completely undermine the unique identity of the city.
They don't realize that you have your own identity cards. Or that your passport allows VISA-free entry to 150 countries, while China only has access to 50. Or that you drive on the other side of the road like in the UK. Or that there's a freaking border between China and Hong Kong. Or that nothing on the Internet is censored. Or that your public infrastructure such as bridges and trains don't randomly fall apart and explode because they weren't developed properly.
Hong Kong is a FREE city, despite the countless barbaric hordes from China trying to enter our border each day. We enjoy our FREEDOM. We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to protest about unwarranted changes to our education system! We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to speak up without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night, or have tanks running wild on our streets.
The fact that we have these FREEDOMS, despite the People's Communist Republic of China thinking we don't, is already enough of a reason that we don't want these things taken away from us. I know it's hard to understand why we value such things from a mainland Chinese person's perspective, just imagine how much harder it will be to convince the PRC government...
If you're unwilling to work with those who have power over you, it really won't be surprising if they decide to work against you. You can proclaim your rights and freedom all you like, but rights are given and can be restricted. If you think governments have no ability to take away rights in the future just because you have them presently, look elsewhere in the world.
On September 07 2012 02:56 InvXXVII wrote: Well this is how I see it. I've been in Canada since I was 3 months old. More precisely, I've been living in Quebec and my winter semester has been delayed and is scheduled to end at the end of September, while my fall semester is due to start in October. On the other hand, I am also a Hong Kong resident and I go back to HK often enough (I'm born in HK, I have the right to work there, use medicare system, vote, etc.).
The two protests are very different one from another. The (now cancelled) Quebec tuition hike would have brought very little change to social well being, general levels of education, Que.'s economic standing, etc. Even with the tuition hikes, there would still have been more people applying to universities than there are spots in universities. One of the party leaders, Francois Legault, said that if Quebec students worked as hard as Asians did, they would whine less about the hike, work harder, and get better jobs. Personally, I don't think that his claim is without truth, but I shall not argue about that. Point is, the tuition hike would have done nothing to decrease the well being of Quebec residents.
HK's protesting students, on the other hand, are trying to defend their very identity as Hong Kongnese. If anyone knows anything about China at all, they should also know that "national studies" has nothing to do with "objectively true" Chinese history and accomplishments. Chinese history according to the Chinese is full of propaganda and blown out of proportion acts of altruism/heroism/godliness/etc. Thus, what HK students are really trying to do is to prevent assimilation. HK is an awesome place. I consider it to be my home. We have a very unique culture (being Chinese and having being influenced by the west through the British Empire), we have a great economy, we have a very unique history. We do not want to be assimilated and become like the rest of China. We do not want to lose our heritage. This is why the HK protest is, for a lack of a better word, "better and more valid".
Unfortunately, China is very unlikely to react to HK ppl protesting. Unless HK students manage to draw significant international attention that is...
There are obviously certain posters in this thread that don't understand that. They don't see what you see. They don't feel what you feel. They think Hong Kong is just a glorified city full of these wild, Chinese people that don't hate westerners and speak a different language (what is this, English? How demonic!), and have their own set of strange, weird laws that promote human rights and don't conform with backward PRC values. They don't realize that their intentions for Hong Kong completely undermine the unique identity of the city.
They don't realize that you have your own identity cards. Or that your passport allows VISA-free entry to 150 countries, while China only has access to 50. Or that you drive on the other side of the road like in the UK. Or that there's a freaking border between China and Hong Kong. Or that nothing on the Internet is censored. Or that your public infrastructure such as bridges and trains don't randomly fall apart and explode because they weren't developed properly.
Hong Kong is a FREE city, despite the countless barbaric hordes from China trying to enter our border each day. We enjoy our FREEDOM. We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to protest about unwarranted changes to our education system! We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to speak up without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night, or have tanks running wild on our streets.
The fact that we have these FREEDOMS, despite the People's Communist Republic of China thinking we don't, is already enough of a reason that we don't want these things taken away from us. I know it's hard to understand why we value such things from a mainland Chinese person's perspective, just imagine how much harder it will be to convince the PRC government...
If you're unwilling to work with those who have power over you, it really won't be surprising if they decide to work against you. You can proclaim your rights and freedom all you like, but rights are given and can be restricted. If you think governments have no ability to take away rights in the future just because you have them presently, look elsewhere in the world.
On September 07 2012 02:56 InvXXVII wrote: Well this is how I see it. I've been in Canada since I was 3 months old. More precisely, I've been living in Quebec and my winter semester has been delayed and is scheduled to end at the end of September, while my fall semester is due to start in October. On the other hand, I am also a Hong Kong resident and I go back to HK often enough (I'm born in HK, I have the right to work there, use medicare system, vote, etc.).
The two protests are very different one from another. The (now cancelled) Quebec tuition hike would have brought very little change to social well being, general levels of education, Que.'s economic standing, etc. Even with the tuition hikes, there would still have been more people applying to universities than there are spots in universities. One of the party leaders, Francois Legault, said that if Quebec students worked as hard as Asians did, they would whine less about the hike, work harder, and get better jobs. Personally, I don't think that his claim is without truth, but I shall not argue about that. Point is, the tuition hike would have done nothing to decrease the well being of Quebec residents.
HK's protesting students, on the other hand, are trying to defend their very identity as Hong Kongnese. If anyone knows anything about China at all, they should also know that "national studies" has nothing to do with "objectively true" Chinese history and accomplishments. Chinese history according to the Chinese is full of propaganda and blown out of proportion acts of altruism/heroism/godliness/etc. Thus, what HK students are really trying to do is to prevent assimilation. HK is an awesome place. I consider it to be my home. We have a very unique culture (being Chinese and having being influenced by the west through the British Empire), we have a great economy, we have a very unique history. We do not want to be assimilated and become like the rest of China. We do not want to lose our heritage. This is why the HK protest is, for a lack of a better word, "better and more valid".
Unfortunately, China is very unlikely to react to HK ppl protesting. Unless HK students manage to draw significant international attention that is...
There are obviously certain posters in this thread that don't understand that. They don't see what you see. They don't feel what you feel. They think Hong Kong is just a glorified city full of these wild, Chinese people that don't hate westerners and speak a different language (what is this, English? How demonic!), and have their own set of strange, weird laws that promote human rights and don't conform with backward PRC values. They don't realize that their intentions for Hong Kong completely undermine the unique identity of the city.
They don't realize that you have your own identity cards. Or that your passport allows VISA-free entry to 150 countries, while China only has access to 50. Or that you drive on the other side of the road like in the UK. Or that there's a freaking border between China and Hong Kong. Or that nothing on the Internet is censored. Or that your public infrastructure such as bridges and trains don't randomly fall apart and explode because they weren't developed properly.
Hong Kong is a FREE city, despite the countless barbaric hordes from China trying to enter our border each day. We enjoy our FREEDOM. We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to protest about unwarranted changes to our education system! We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to speak up without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night, or have tanks running wild on our streets.
The fact that we have these FREEDOMS, despite the People's Communist Republic of China thinking we don't, is already enough of a reason that we don't want these things taken away from us. I know it's hard to understand why we value such things from a mainland Chinese person's perspective, just imagine how much harder it will be to convince the PRC government...
If you're unwilling to work with those who have power over you, it really won't be surprising if they decide to work against you. You can proclaim your rights and freedom all you like, but rights are given and can be restricted. If you think governments have no ability to take away rights in the future just because you have them presently, look elsewhere in the world.
So... bow down to whoever has the bigger guns?
Diplomacy or death. I'm not saying you have to bow, just that if you don't, you will need an actual game plan rather than idealism.
On September 07 2012 02:56 InvXXVII wrote: Well this is how I see it. I've been in Canada since I was 3 months old. More precisely, I've been living in Quebec and my winter semester has been delayed and is scheduled to end at the end of September, while my fall semester is due to start in October. On the other hand, I am also a Hong Kong resident and I go back to HK often enough (I'm born in HK, I have the right to work there, use medicare system, vote, etc.).
The two protests are very different one from another. The (now cancelled) Quebec tuition hike would have brought very little change to social well being, general levels of education, Que.'s economic standing, etc. Even with the tuition hikes, there would still have been more people applying to universities than there are spots in universities. One of the party leaders, Francois Legault, said that if Quebec students worked as hard as Asians did, they would whine less about the hike, work harder, and get better jobs. Personally, I don't think that his claim is without truth, but I shall not argue about that. Point is, the tuition hike would have done nothing to decrease the well being of Quebec residents.
HK's protesting students, on the other hand, are trying to defend their very identity as Hong Kongnese. If anyone knows anything about China at all, they should also know that "national studies" has nothing to do with "objectively true" Chinese history and accomplishments. Chinese history according to the Chinese is full of propaganda and blown out of proportion acts of altruism/heroism/godliness/etc. Thus, what HK students are really trying to do is to prevent assimilation. HK is an awesome place. I consider it to be my home. We have a very unique culture (being Chinese and having being influenced by the west through the British Empire), we have a great economy, we have a very unique history. We do not want to be assimilated and become like the rest of China. We do not want to lose our heritage. This is why the HK protest is, for a lack of a better word, "better and more valid".
Unfortunately, China is very unlikely to react to HK ppl protesting. Unless HK students manage to draw significant international attention that is...
There are obviously certain posters in this thread that don't understand that. They don't see what you see. They don't feel what you feel. They think Hong Kong is just a glorified city full of these wild, Chinese people that don't hate westerners and speak a different language (what is this, English? How demonic!), and have their own set of strange, weird laws that promote human rights and don't conform with backward PRC values. They don't realize that their intentions for Hong Kong completely undermine the unique identity of the city.
They don't realize that you have your own identity cards. Or that your passport allows VISA-free entry to 150 countries, while China only has access to 50. Or that you drive on the other side of the road like in the UK. Or that there's a freaking border between China and Hong Kong. Or that nothing on the Internet is censored. Or that your public infrastructure such as bridges and trains don't randomly fall apart and explode because they weren't developed properly.
Hong Kong is a FREE city, despite the countless barbaric hordes from China trying to enter our border each day. We enjoy our FREEDOM. We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to protest about unwarranted changes to our education system! We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to speak up without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night, or have tanks running wild on our streets.
The fact that we have these FREEDOMS, despite the People's Communist Republic of China thinking we don't, is already enough of a reason that we don't want these things taken away from us. I know it's hard to understand why we value such things from a mainland Chinese person's perspective, just imagine how much harder it will be to convince the PRC government...
If you're unwilling to work with those who have power over you, it really won't be surprising if they decide to work against you. You can proclaim your rights and freedom all you like, but rights are given and can be restricted. If you think governments have no ability to take away rights in the future just because you have them presently, look elsewhere in the world.
So... bow down to whoever has the bigger guns?
That's what most the world does with Uncle Sam . To quote a bad Metallica song, "Sad but True".
On September 07 2012 02:56 InvXXVII wrote: Well this is how I see it. I've been in Canada since I was 3 months old. More precisely, I've been living in Quebec and my winter semester has been delayed and is scheduled to end at the end of September, while my fall semester is due to start in October. On the other hand, I am also a Hong Kong resident and I go back to HK often enough (I'm born in HK, I have the right to work there, use medicare system, vote, etc.).
The two protests are very different one from another. The (now cancelled) Quebec tuition hike would have brought very little change to social well being, general levels of education, Que.'s economic standing, etc. Even with the tuition hikes, there would still have been more people applying to universities than there are spots in universities. One of the party leaders, Francois Legault, said that if Quebec students worked as hard as Asians did, they would whine less about the hike, work harder, and get better jobs. Personally, I don't think that his claim is without truth, but I shall not argue about that. Point is, the tuition hike would have done nothing to decrease the well being of Quebec residents.
HK's protesting students, on the other hand, are trying to defend their very identity as Hong Kongnese. If anyone knows anything about China at all, they should also know that "national studies" has nothing to do with "objectively true" Chinese history and accomplishments. Chinese history according to the Chinese is full of propaganda and blown out of proportion acts of altruism/heroism/godliness/etc. Thus, what HK students are really trying to do is to prevent assimilation. HK is an awesome place. I consider it to be my home. We have a very unique culture (being Chinese and having being influenced by the west through the British Empire), we have a great economy, we have a very unique history. We do not want to be assimilated and become like the rest of China. We do not want to lose our heritage. This is why the HK protest is, for a lack of a better word, "better and more valid".
Unfortunately, China is very unlikely to react to HK ppl protesting. Unless HK students manage to draw significant international attention that is...
There are obviously certain posters in this thread that don't understand that. They don't see what you see. They don't feel what you feel. They think Hong Kong is just a glorified city full of these wild, Chinese people that don't hate westerners and speak a different language (what is this, English? How demonic!), and have their own set of strange, weird laws that promote human rights and don't conform with backward PRC values. They don't realize that their intentions for Hong Kong completely undermine the unique identity of the city.
They don't realize that you have your own identity cards. Or that your passport allows VISA-free entry to 150 countries, while China only has access to 50. Or that you drive on the other side of the road like in the UK. Or that there's a freaking border between China and Hong Kong. Or that nothing on the Internet is censored. Or that your public infrastructure such as bridges and trains don't randomly fall apart and explode because they weren't developed properly.
Hong Kong is a FREE city, despite the countless barbaric hordes from China trying to enter our border each day. We enjoy our FREEDOM. We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to protest about unwarranted changes to our education system! We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to speak up without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night, or have tanks running wild on our streets.
The fact that we have these FREEDOMS, despite the People's Communist Republic of China thinking we don't, is already enough of a reason that we don't want these things taken away from us. I know it's hard to understand why we value such things from a mainland Chinese person's perspective, just imagine how much harder it will be to convince the PRC government...
If you're unwilling to work with those who have power over you, it really won't be surprising if they decide to work against you. You can proclaim your rights and freedom all you like, but rights are given and can be restricted. If you think governments have no ability to take away rights in the future just because you have them presently, look elsewhere in the world.
So... bow down to whoever has the bigger guns?
Diplomacy or death. I'm not saying you have to bow, just that if you don't, you will need an actual game plan rather than idealism.
Except we're not Iran, and China isn't the United States. But that's not the point.
I don't know where you're getting your information from about this topic (hopefully it's not ALL from this thread -.-), but "death" isn't exactly an option on the table. For either side. Not China, and definitely not Hong Kong.
So, another suggestion? A more intelligent one this time... maybe after you've read more into the history...
On September 06 2012 20:16 alffla wrote: im so sad about the situation here in hong kong ..watching our little city slowly fall apart to the chinese communist party is terrible
how is your city falling apart?
everytime i go to hong kong i get smeared at because i can't speak canto
On September 06 2012 20:16 alffla wrote: im so sad about the situation here in hong kong ..watching our little city slowly fall apart to the chinese communist party is terrible
how is your city falling apart?
everytime i go to hong kong i get smeared at because i can't speak canto
There is a "one country, two system" policy that gives HK the autonomy to decide on internal matters. However, our government is becoming more and more pro-Chinese Government and not listening to waht people want, the "national education" mentioned in the thread is one of those issues.
On September 07 2012 09:03 haduken wrote: Meh, HKers need to harden the fuck up.
If you think your city is bad, what about Shanghai/Beijing and 10000 other Chinese cities that had millions of peasant migrations.
What the hell is this? Some places are worse means that we can be bad? Of course not. And we are not just a random Chinese city, we (still) enjoy some freedom, so we can resist attempts that change our society for worse.
Although HK is a part of China, it still enjoys a decent amount of autonomy, especially regarding internal affairs such as the "National Education" mentioned. We also have the autonomy on migration, Macau, our neighbour has tighened up some migration policies for example.
Edit: People are getting really off topic. As I mention earlier, migration issues/HK VS China/migration issues are not the main point TT
On September 07 2012 02:56 InvXXVII wrote: Well this is how I see it. I've been in Canada since I was 3 months old. More precisely, I've been living in Quebec and my winter semester has been delayed and is scheduled to end at the end of September, while my fall semester is due to start in October. On the other hand, I am also a Hong Kong resident and I go back to HK often enough (I'm born in HK, I have the right to work there, use medicare system, vote, etc.).
The two protests are very different one from another. The (now cancelled) Quebec tuition hike would have brought very little change to social well being, general levels of education, Que.'s economic standing, etc. Even with the tuition hikes, there would still have been more people applying to universities than there are spots in universities. One of the party leaders, Francois Legault, said that if Quebec students worked as hard as Asians did, they would whine less about the hike, work harder, and get better jobs. Personally, I don't think that his claim is without truth, but I shall not argue about that. Point is, the tuition hike would have done nothing to decrease the well being of Quebec residents.
HK's protesting students, on the other hand, are trying to defend their very identity as Hong Kongnese. If anyone knows anything about China at all, they should also know that "national studies" has nothing to do with "objectively true" Chinese history and accomplishments. Chinese history according to the Chinese is full of propaganda and blown out of proportion acts of altruism/heroism/godliness/etc. Thus, what HK students are really trying to do is to prevent assimilation. HK is an awesome place. I consider it to be my home. We have a very unique culture (being Chinese and having being influenced by the west through the British Empire), we have a great economy, we have a very unique history. We do not want to be assimilated and become like the rest of China. We do not want to lose our heritage. This is why the HK protest is, for a lack of a better word, "better and more valid".
Unfortunately, China is very unlikely to react to HK ppl protesting. Unless HK students manage to draw significant international attention that is...
There are obviously certain posters in this thread that don't understand that. They don't see what you see. They don't feel what you feel. They think Hong Kong is just a glorified city full of these wild, Chinese people that don't hate westerners and speak a different language (what is this, English? How demonic!), and have their own set of strange, weird laws that promote human rights and don't conform with backward PRC values. They don't realize that their intentions for Hong Kong completely undermine the unique identity of the city.
They don't realize that you have your own identity cards. Or that your passport allows VISA-free entry to 150 countries, while China only has access to 50. Or that you drive on the other side of the road like in the UK. Or that there's a freaking border between China and Hong Kong. Or that nothing on the Internet is censored. Or that your public infrastructure such as bridges and trains don't randomly fall apart and explode because they weren't developed properly.
Hong Kong is a FREE city, despite the countless barbaric hordes from China trying to enter our border each day. We enjoy our FREEDOM. We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to protest about unwarranted changes to our education system! We enjoy the fact that we are FREE to speak up without fear of disappearing in the middle of the night, or have tanks running wild on our streets.
The fact that we have these FREEDOMS, despite the People's Communist Republic of China thinking we don't, is already enough of a reason that we don't want these things taken away from us. I know it's hard to understand why we value such things from a mainland Chinese person's perspective, just imagine how much harder it will be to convince the PRC government...
If you're unwilling to work with those who have power over you, it really won't be surprising if they decide to work against you. You can proclaim your rights and freedom all you like, but rights are given and can be restricted. If you think governments have no ability to take away rights in the future just because you have them presently, look elsewhere in the world.
So... bow down to whoever has the bigger guns?
Diplomacy or death. I'm not saying you have to bow, just that if you don't, you will need an actual game plan rather than idealism.
Protesting is the beginning of a game plan. Look at Quebec. They have been protesting against English assimilation since the British empire defeated the French. And they have resisted assimilation pretty well. This is much much much more than just working for those who have power over us. This is literally brainwashing that China is asking. Watch any documentary about elementary education in China and you'd be convinced.
On September 07 2012 09:03 haduken wrote: Meh, HKers need to harden the fuck up.
If you think your city is bad, what about Shanghai/Beijing and 10000 other Chinese cities that had millions of peasant migrations.
We do not think our city is bad. Nowhere in this thread has anyone said that our city is bad. And following your train of thought, no one living in the western world should ever have anything to complain about because there are people living in worse situations. The argument is a fallacy. You do not understand that HKers are trying to keep their culture and their identity, and not their material wellbeing.
A lot of people in general are just confused as to what Hong Kong actually is. They hear "autonomy" and/or "sovereign" and they immediately assume we're fighting for independence against China, sort of like Tibet or Taiwan. Then they find out that Hong Kong is actually PART of China, and get all confused. I remember a friend's reaction to hearing "one country, two systems" - she said "so you have a democratic AND a republican as president?" ..................
I've also had Hong Kong compared to the likes of Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Quebec, etc. For reference sake, Hawaii is definitely part of the United States, Puerto Rico is talking about independence, Quebec has already voted several times on independence and Canada has recognized the Quebecois as a "nation within Canada". China wants Hong Kong to go the other direction. It's going to happen eventually, and I shudder at the mere thought of it, but they're in a hurry to brainwash the people into accepting PRC rule. They want it bad, and they want it NOW. And they're starting with education.
On September 06 2012 18:18 KwarK wrote: They're in the unfortunate position of having sovereignty in their state essentially handed over to a foreign nation with a totalitarian government. They're fucked. They're right to protest, their history is one of a liberal colonial western system and being told they need to learn to conform with the antithesis of that is horrible.
You say colonial western system like its a good thing. As if colonialism was some gift from the great Brits. You know what? I hope China fucking crushes the protests from these faux fucking Brits. There isn't a country or culture in the world more scummy than the British and if it will take a massive act of oppression to destroy the British influence in a region, its completely worth it.
western colonialism, and specifically British colonialism, has done nothing but good for the world
Ask the Congolese how they feel about the Belgians sometime. Or ask the Indians why all those years under the thumb of the British Raj didn't turn them into a financial center.
out of all the nations to come from the Commonwealth/under British colonization, the only major country to falter has been Zimbabwe.
Canada, South Africa, India, and Malaysia/Singapore are all major economic powers, but the British didn't directly craft them into the financial strongholds they are today. Because all of these nations retained or modeled off their British-influenced educational, financial, judicial, and legislative systems, they were able to develop their nation well after they'd left the British sphere of influence.
British Guyanas? Rhodesia? The native inhabitants of South Africa? Pakistan? British Iraq? Syria? The aborigines of Australia? Please tell me any of those regions or places is better off after colonialism and I will find you papers, entire academic departments, and governments who beg to differ, because they are still trying to sort through the trauma that the Brits dished out.
The foundations that the British gave these nations is nothing to scoff at when you consider nations that have no official ties to the Commonwealth, but draw heavily from British influences such as the United States and Hong Kong, are central pillars of economy and culture in their respective parts of the world. This is why your blind hatred has no place, and why it's especially important for citizens in HK to recognize that an underlying portion in their formula for continued prosperity is being forcefully altered.
from what I hear, people are wary of the implications national education might carry, and that a milder form of the devastating Cultural Revolution might take place again. For a lot of citizens, excessive PRC influence or impression has been something that they've dreaded ever since the 1997 reunification. A lot of them would have preferred to stay under British sovereignty.
Whoa there. From 1857 to 1949, the main financial center in East Asia was not straitlaced, neo-Victorian Hong Kong, but mongrel, internationalized, utterly amoral Shanghai. It was only after 1949 that Hong Kong became, first, a manufacturing center (due to the influx of cheap refugee labor, and even then it was an also-ran to Taiwan); and then finally only after 1978 did the rise of the Chinese manufacturing enable Hong Kong to vault into position as a center of global finance. Hong Kong's rise has very little to do with its institutional history, and very much to do with the fact that it's the only place the West and the Chinese Communist Party both felt comfortable doing business.
hong kong's rise has everything to do with the foundation the British provided. every legislative, judicial and executive position there was staffed by a Briton until the late 80s.
you seem to have some comprehension issues stemming from, what I've gathered from your other posts, a very pro-Chinese viewpoint. I didn't mention that the British colonial system was completely unfallible. However, out of all the nations to come from a British background, 3 (4 if you count the US) make it into the top 10 countries by GDP, 6 in the top 20, and 9 in the top 50. the only common denominator in all of these countries is an Anglican background. their systems have changed since separation as a colony, but you can't deny that these governments are simply a personalized system crafted in their image. hence, the British can claim a large hand in these nations' respective prosperity. several failures taken out of context do not serve to invalidate the success of the overall system.
As for disrespect to mainlanders, if you've ever been to Hong Kong, then took a trip to Guangzhou, the differences you can visibly see right off are immense; shit includes people spitting indoors, eating rice with their hands, complete disregard for common traffic laws, and an overall lack of what westerners like to call common decency. It's not some hillbilly city in the middle of China either, it's literally a 25 minute train ride away from Central. While I don't necessarily condone the discrimination the citizens of Hong Kong have against mainlanders, I can certainly sympathize with their frustration. on one hand, you have a city of people acclimated to Western influences and mannerisms, and on the other you have a congo line of coarser mainlanders who make little effort to assimilate and continue to act upon their lack of manner whilst taking away benefits and welfare. It's completely reminiscent of the problem Americans have with Mexicans "crossing the border and taking away jobs and manipulating the welfare system"
Are mainlanders inherently bad people? not at all, once you get past their lack of culture, you'll see that they're some of the most naively benevolent people. again, this reflects upon their education levels and upbringing. Why are mainland Chinese such a different breed than the Chinese in Hong Kong? IMO, it has to do with Mao's Cultural Revolution half a century back. In the dynastic era of Chinese history, they had extremely strong Confucian roots. because the revolution (more of an upheaval of tradition) destroyed countless texts, silenced various scholars, and censored many leading Chinese educational institutions, China plunged into a short Dark Age. While scientific/empirical knowledge was untouched, culture as a whole was almost wiped out. There's a reason why Hong Kong and Taiwan retain much of their culture and mannerisms while mainland Chinese have nothing but a shadow of their past traditions. I suspect if the Cultural Revolution never happened, regardless of governmental system, present day Chinese society would look somewhat to Korean culture. Of course, this is all my conjecture, but I'm sure it's exactly what people in HK are protesting for - a rally against the slow conversion into a mirror image of China. Cultural identity, a blend of the west and east, has always been HK's forte and to meddle with that mixture is something I'd rather not see for the city.
Also for the record, almost a million people fled the city in 1997 before the reunification, though many have returned since China mostly kept up its half of the bargain. A sixth of the city deemed impending Chinese rule so intolerable they had the balls to drop everything in their life and move to start over abroad. pretty much gives you an idea how riled up people there can get when it comes to their autonomy.
Also for the record, almost a million people fled the city in 1997 before the reunification, though many have returned since China mostly kept up its half of the bargain. A sixth of the city deemed impending Chinese rule so intolerable they had the balls to drop everything in their life and move to start over abroad. pretty much gives you an idea how riled up people there can get when it comes to their autonomy.
I wouldnt really say it was a hardship to monetize your expensive property in HK and move to Vancouver. Its not like its the 19th century and they were some Fujianese fleeing starvation and ended up being rubber farmers in Malaysia or whatever.
Also for the record, almost a million people fled the city in 1997 before the reunification, though many have returned since China mostly kept up its half of the bargain. A sixth of the city deemed impending Chinese rule so intolerable they had the balls to drop everything in their life and move to start over abroad. pretty much gives you an idea how riled up people there can get when it comes to their autonomy.
I wouldnt really say it was a hardship to monetize your expensive property in HK and move to Vancouver. Its not like its the 19th century and they were some Fujianese fleeing starvation and ended up being rubber farmers in Malaysia or whatever.
considering most of the population spends their entire lifetime working to own a bathroom, I'd say that example is in the minority. You also misunderstood that paragraph; obviously selling your property is much easier than adapting, moving, leaving your friends, family, and other relationships.
Yeah, Cultural Revolution sucked hardcore for everybody. However it was true that Confucianism has been holding China back for a long time.
I've personally never met people eating rice with their hands. Please don't take the beggars on the street to generalize 1.3 billion people with vastly different upbringing, education and provincial cultures. (Guangzhou doesn't really have great reputations from what I've heard.)
I value honesty and integrity (which unfortunately doesn't seem to corrolate with intelligence all that well) over the mannerisms (especially the shallow, sycophantic type) when judging a person myself so perhaps I'm biased, but in reading this thread I find that there's a bit too much accepted elitism and bigotry in these debates. (Yes I know this is a problem on both sides).
HK is at least 2 generations ahead of mainland in terms of development, but I don't think it's ever justifiable to look down on others no matter how much better your current static situation is, because it promotes a bad dynamic. That is just not a helpful attitude from anyone. You alienate the others without helping them improve themselves, and you leave yourself to over-confident self-righteousness. Worse, you leave people who would otherwise agree with you puzzled and disgusted by your attitude.
To look down on others = bad, no matter how much good you have.
I mean, the Germans and the Japanese weren't exactly stupid, lazy, uncivilized or have bad manners, but their main fault was to wrongly look down on others.
Besides, the opponents in this matter isn't the average guy from Mainland trying to live his life in the streets of HK, it's the CCP and their puppets in your government.
On September 09 2012 06:17 andyrau wrote: Why are mainland Chinese such a different breed than the Chinese in Hong Kong? IMO, it has to do with Mao's Cultural Revolution half a century back. In the dynastic era of Chinese history, they had extremely strong Confucian roots. because the revolution (more of an upheaval of tradition) destroyed countless texts, silenced various scholars, and censored many leading Chinese educational institutions, China plunged into a short Dark Age. While scientific/empirical knowledge was untouched, culture as a whole was almost wiped out. There's a reason why Hong Kong and Taiwan retain much of their culture and mannerisms while mainland Chinese have nothing but a shadow of their past traditions. I suspect if the Cultural Revolution never happened, regardless of governmental system, present day Chinese society would look somewhat to Korean culture.
I'm not sure about that. I don't think north korea had a cultural revolution, or Vietnam, but they did have authoritarian governments that brainwashed people (well north korea at least). South Korea had some bouts of dictators, but people had enough leeway to protest them without getting purged.
Maybe it would be like singapore or thailand. If I compare Japan and South Korea with other eastern countries (communist or democratic, authoritarian regimes or not), the biggest difference is that heavy US involvement prevented the government from some of the more extreme actions.
HONG KONG (Reuters) - Hong Kong's government withdrew plans for a compulsory Chinese school curriculum on Saturday after tens of thousands took to the streets in protest at what they said was a move to "brainwash" students.
The decision by the island's pro-China Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying to make the curriculum voluntary for schools came a day before elections for just over half the seats of Hong Kong's 70-seat legislature.
"We don't want the recent controversy to affect the operations of schools, nor do we want to see the harmony of the education environment to be affected," said Leung, noting the move was a "major policy amendment".
"They have made a substantive concession," said Joseph Wong, a former senior government official and political scientist.
"One may say it's too late, but better late than never. I think it will defuse the issue, maybe not entirely, but at least it will remove a lot of the tensions ... This is a great day for Hong Kong's civil society."
For the past week, thousands of protesters have ringed Hong Kong's government headquarters, camped out in tents, dressed in black and chanting for the withdrawal of the curriculum they said was Communist Party propaganda aimed at indoctrinating new generations of primary and secondary school students.
The education issue is one of several key issues for voters along with housing and the increasing number of visitors from the mainland coming into the city.
DEMOCRACY CAMP
Leung was sworn in in July after being elected by a committee filled with business professionals, tycoons and Beijing loyalists. Hong Kong's seven million people have no say in who becomes their chief executive.
A strong showing by the opposition pro-democracy camp would make it more difficult for the chief executive to pass policies in a fractious legislature.
The polls may be a chance for voters to express anti-China sentiment, with many protesters still camped outside the government headquarters after the apparent back-down, still unsatisfied with the policy change.
"This is a cunning move to put the ball in the people's court. Even though they say schools are free to choose ... in the coming years I expect the government and Beijing to use hidden means to try to pressure more and more schools to take up the scheme," said young activist Mak Chi-ho.
"What Hong Kong needs is real universal suffrage."
Hong Kong is a freewheeling capitalist hub which enjoys a high degree of autonomy, but Beijing has resisted public pressure for full democracy and has maintained a high degree of influence in political, media and academic spheres.
The past week's protests have included hunger strikes and the parading of a replica of the Goddess of Democracy statue which was erected in Beijing's Tiananmen Square during the 1989 demonstrations and crackdown.
The latest outbreak of discontent represents yet another headache for Beijing, after Chinese President Hu Jintao appealed in July for Hong Kong to maintain unity, with Beijing's own leaders grappling with an imminent leadership transition.
Hong Kong officials have dropped plans to introduce compulsory Chinese national education classes in schools that raised fears in the former British colony of pro-Beijing "brainwashing."
The semiautonomous Chinese city's leader, Leung Chun-ying, said Saturday that the government would leave it up to schools to decide whether to launch the classes, and that it would no longer be mandatory.
Leung's retreat follows a week of protests by thousands in front of government headquarters. News reports quoted organizers as saying more than 100,000 took part Friday evening.
The decision comes a day before elections for the city's legislature. Sunday's vote will be the first time the public will be able to choose more than half the seats.
Deepening opposition to the education plans could have undermined support for pro-Beijing candidates.
Unfortunately, this is surely only a temporary victory, and I doubt anyone believes this is over. The CCP, for all its faults, are neither stupid nor impatient. They still have 35 years before the official end of 1 country 2 systems and will undoubtedly try to reintroduce their 'national education' again, next time more subtly.
Unfortunately, this is surely only a temporary victory, and I doubt anyone believes this is over. The CCP, for all its faults, are neither stupid nor impatient. They still have 35 years before the official end of 1 country 2 systems and will undoubtedly try to reintroduce their 'national education' again, next time more subtly.
That's assuming the CCP lasts for 35 years. 35 years is a long time from now and nobody knows what's going to happen within those years.
EPT
. To quote a bad Metallica song, "Sad but True". 
