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On September 05 2012 08:19 FrigolitH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:16 PanN wrote:
Thats bullshit though, you can't prove that the numbers would go up. Also, with legalization you can introduce some safety discussions or something, you're just counting up the bad and racking it up instead of looking at the positives. It's common sense. The more people using it, the larger the pool of potential "stupid people". I could also reverse your statement and say that you are just looking at the positives and ignoring the negative sides.
Oh look at you still not proving what you said, how cute. I'm not going to continue to discuss a topic I consider very serious and important to me with someone that just bullshits numbers sorry. (By the way, I'm pretty sure the numbers of marijuana users went DOWN in countries that have legalized it. But keep believing your fairy tale numbers and considering only the worst, thats bound to get you somewhere.)
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On September 05 2012 08:21 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:19 FrigolitH wrote:On September 05 2012 08:16 PanN wrote:
Thats bullshit though, you can't prove that the numbers would go up. Also, with legalization you can introduce some safety discussions or something, you're just counting up the bad and racking it up instead of looking at the positives. It's common sense. The more people using it, the larger the pool of potential "stupid people". I could also reverse your statement and say that you are just looking at the positives and ignoring the negative sides. Oh look at you still not proving what you said, how cute. I'm not going to continue to discuss a topic I consider very serious and important to me with someone that just bullshits numbers sorry. (By the way, I'm pretty sure the numbers of marijuana users went DOWN in countries that have legalized it. But keep believing your fairy tale numbers and considering only the worst, thats bound to get you somewhere.)
Who's making up numbers now?
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On September 05 2012 08:20 TALegion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:09 SupLilSon wrote:On September 05 2012 05:05 TALegion wrote:On September 05 2012 02:38 Lann555 wrote:
And just to add to the actual topic:
There can be no logical argument for the criminalization of cannabis in a society that allows garbage like tobacco to be sold on every street-corner. The way I see it there are two positions that make sense:
-criminalize all drugs
-legalize cannabis
Im pro-legalization and I disagree with that. Tobacco and alcohol aren't legal because no one thinks that they're wrong, it's just that it's far too late to do anything about it. If it were possible to make them illegal without the side effects of black markets and organized crime, it would be done immediately. While you and I know that marijuana is not even on the same scale of danger as tobacco and alcohol, it is still thought of as being on the plane. Thinking of it from someone else's perspective, it would be like if alcohol was illegal and we were arguing for whether it should be legal. Even if they're barely even comparable in terms of actual side effects and dangers, some people believe in a straight-edge morality that doesn't want any drugs being legal at all. I'd say that comprises about 15% of all anti-legalization advocates. The other 85%, who likely live some level of unhealthy lifestyles, are just ignorant hypocrites. Tobacco and Alcohol wouldn't be made illegal, not in a million years. The government makes WAY too much damn money off both of them. Once the government sets up the infrastructure for taxing marijuana in the same fashion it will be legalized. You see this happening slowly as singular states open up dispensiaries. America did make alcohol illegal. They had to undo it, though, because the market still existed and the business only made organized crime more powerful. It was the lesser of two evils to have it legal.
The same could be said about marijuana.
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On September 05 2012 08:24 FrigolitH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:21 PanN wrote:On September 05 2012 08:19 FrigolitH wrote:On September 05 2012 08:16 PanN wrote:
Thats bullshit though, you can't prove that the numbers would go up. Also, with legalization you can introduce some safety discussions or something, you're just counting up the bad and racking it up instead of looking at the positives. It's common sense. The more people using it, the larger the pool of potential "stupid people". I could also reverse your statement and say that you are just looking at the positives and ignoring the negative sides. Oh look at you still not proving what you said, how cute. I'm not going to continue to discuss a topic I consider very serious and important to me with someone that just bullshits numbers sorry. (By the way, I'm pretty sure the numbers of marijuana users went DOWN in countries that have legalized it. But keep believing your fairy tale numbers and considering only the worst, thats bound to get you somewhere.) Who's making up numbers now?
Heres an article.
"Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal"
First percentage is for the U.S. Second percentage is for the nederlands.
"Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 36.9% 1 17.0% 2
Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 5.4% 1 3.0% 2"
Like I said, I'm done talking with you, I'm not going to waste my time any longer with someone that clearly can't even argue something extremely simple (Like you saying bullshit then not backing it up).
I mean really, good luck in the thread and all, but I myself am no longer acknowledging your existence for awhile.
By the way, I recommend you look up correlation and causation, you could maybe, just MAYBE, apply that to your clearly flawless logic of "If you legalize marijuana, car wrecks will go up!".
What a joke... I'm gonna go smoke and be responsible. Later.
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On September 05 2012 08:19 FrigolitH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:16 PanN wrote:
Thats bullshit though, you can't prove that the numbers would go up. Also, with legalization you can introduce some safety discussions or something, you're just counting up the bad and racking it up instead of looking at the positives. It's common sense. The more people using it, the larger the pool of potential "stupid people". I could also reverse your statement and say that you are just looking at the positives and ignoring the negative sides.
As much common sense as fat makes you fat and saturated fats clog your arteries.
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On September 05 2012 08:28 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:24 FrigolitH wrote:On September 05 2012 08:21 PanN wrote:On September 05 2012 08:19 FrigolitH wrote:On September 05 2012 08:16 PanN wrote:
Thats bullshit though, you can't prove that the numbers would go up. Also, with legalization you can introduce some safety discussions or something, you're just counting up the bad and racking it up instead of looking at the positives. It's common sense. The more people using it, the larger the pool of potential "stupid people". I could also reverse your statement and say that you are just looking at the positives and ignoring the negative sides. Oh look at you still not proving what you said, how cute. I'm not going to continue to discuss a topic I consider very serious and important to me with someone that just bullshits numbers sorry. (By the way, I'm pretty sure the numbers of marijuana users went DOWN in countries that have legalized it. But keep believing your fairy tale numbers and considering only the worst, thats bound to get you somewhere.) Who's making up numbers now? Heres an article. "Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal" First percentage is for the U.S. Second percentage is for the nederlands. "Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 36.9% 1 17.0% 2 Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 5.4% 1 3.0% 2" Like I said, I'm done talking with you, I'm not going to waste my time any longer with someone that clearly can't even argue something extremely simple (Like you saying bullshit then not backing it up). I mean really, good luck in the thread and all, but I myself am no longer acknowledging your existence for awhile. By the way, I recommend you look up correlation and causation, you could maybe, just MAYBE, apply that to your clearly flawless logic of "If you legalize marijuana, car wrecks will go up!". What a joke... I'm gonna go smoke and be responsible. Later.
that's one of the biggest arguments in favour of weed. but conservative people really dont want to think rationally. fuck.
the german chancellor recently said "marihuana can make you addicted very quickly, while tobacco and alcohol won't". LOL. that's literally the level germany is thinking at. fml.
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[/QUOTE]
Heres an article.
"Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal"
First percentage is for the U.S. Second percentage is for the nederlands.
"Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 36.9% 1 17.0% 2
Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 5.4% 1 3.0% 2"
Like I said, I'm done talking with you, I'm not going to waste my time any longer with someone that clearly can't even argue something extremely simple (Like you saying bullshit then not backing it up).
I mean really, good luck in the thread and all, but I myself am no longer acknowledging your existence for awhile.
By the way, I recommend you look up correlation and causation, you could maybe, just MAYBE, apply that to your clearly flawless logic of "If you legalize marijuana, car wrecks will go up!".
What a joke... I'm gonna go smoke and be responsible. Later.
[/QUOTE]
"This development can not only be attributed to decriminalisation but to a confluence of treatment and risk reduction policies.”
It seems like actually treating the drug addicts also helped reduce the numbers. Kinda funny how you failed to mention that. Also, trying to overwhelm me with ad hominem won't prove your cause.
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On September 05 2012 08:35 FrigolitH wrote:
"This development can not only be attributed to decriminalisation but to a confluence of treatment and risk reduction policies.”
It seems like actually treating the drug addicts also helped reduce the numbers. Kinda funny how you failed to mention that. Also, trying to overwhelm me with ad hominem won't prove your cause.
wait. please.
think about this for a second. how could you appropriately treat addicts when your country's leader openly tells lies like "marihuana is more addictive than tobacco"? how? dude, how?
this is an important point pro legalization. one of the most important, actually.
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1 - Total deaths from Cannabis overdose: 0
2 - Total deaths caused from alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs: hundreds of thousands per year.
3 - Marijuana's current status as illegal does not prevent anyone from smoking it who cares to. Depending on what poll you look at, 40-60 percent of the US population under the age of 21 has smoked at least once, and about 10-15 percent smoke regularly. We've all heard anecdotal evidence that high school age children often have a harder time acquiring beer than marijuana.
4 - Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffer from disease for which marijuana can provide some relief, but are denied access.
5 - Marijuana laws typically prosecute marijuana users on a similar level to users of cocaine, heroin, and meth.
6 - Many professionals are marijuana users. The stereotype of a lazy fuck-up exists for smokers and non-smokers alike. Some notable smokers include Bill Gates, Rick Steves, Pablo Picasso, Steve Jobs, Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, Francis Crick, Andrew Weil, Kary Mullis, Oliver Sacks, Richard Feynman, and the list goes on and on if you care to look.
7 - If marijuana was legalized, the gateway drug argument would be rendered moot. It would separate its black market dealings from other drugs such as heroin and cocaine. It would be controlled and regulated, and would not lead to harder drugs any more than alcohol or tobacco would.
8 - Studies have shown that marijuana use does not negatively impact your brain, but it is a moot point when discussing legality. Alcohol is 100% proven to damage your brain, liver, and many other systems in your body, and yet it remains legal. Cannabis' negative physical side effects are at the worst controversial, and at best hardly existent. This is not a basis for prohibition.
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I think if society decided to no longer sell cigarettes to minors then a very slim percentage of the younger generation would even have smoking habits to begin with. Only slightly different from this is to prevent anyone from starting an addiction, i.e. anyone currently addicted would get an exemption, but nobody else could buy tobacco anymore. The latter is an infringement on personal liberty, a healthy adult can not decide for himself to start smoking, but I think it's a policy that could get a lot of support - if it was feasible to execute.
My theory is that the personal liberty argument is used when you can not convince the other side of the potential benefits of your drug of choice. It sidesteps that line of thought and simply states that the rights of the individual to have power over his own body trump any concern about potential drawbacks. I actually think that's a valuable perspective to have, because it allows you to draw very simple lines about what is allowed and not. You can't win a debate on the merits, history has shown us. LSD, which has been considered safe for decades, is quite far away from legalization because it is political suicide to even contemplate its potential benefits. Corporate interests are comfortable with alcohol, which is the ultimate distraction for the lower classes, yet would fight potentially mind-opening hallucinogens that you can acquire independently of the pharmaceutical industries, or they feel uncomfortable allowing hemp farming to upset existing industries. The control over public debate, education and political power by factions with interests in dismantling such things is too big.
I am personally more amiable to discussing each drug based on its merits and only allowing it when it fulfills certain standards - the way the current policy is supposed to work. However, given that in many countries hallucinogens, MDMA, cannabis and the like are all illegal it is clear this approach is doomed to failure. Instead of constantly conceding to whatever group of interests is opposing drug use this season, it's more sensible to argue for the right to not constantly be helpless to resist the creation of arbitrary, anti-scientific drug policy; and if that means that drugs in general should be legalized then so be it, even if that includes a lot of quite harmful things such as tobacco. It's not ideal and I do think that a better society than ours would have made greater strides against smoking addiction and alcohol use, but once you allow the powers that be to arbitrarily draw lines as to what constitutes an illegal drug you're never going to get anywhere.
(sorry if this was confusing, but it's late here..)
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On September 05 2012 08:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
1 - Total deaths from Cannabis overdose: 0
2 - Total deaths caused from alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs: hundreds of thousands per year.
3 - Marijuana's current status as illegal does not prevent anyone from smoking it who cares to. Depending on what poll you look at, 40-60 percent of the US population under the age of 21 has smoked at least once, and about 10-15 percent smoke regularly. We've all heard anecdotal evidence that high school age children often have a harder time acquiring beer than marijuana.
4 - Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffer from disease for which marijuana can provide some relief, but are denied access.
5 - Marijuana laws typically prosecute marijuana users on a similar level to users of cocaine, heroin, and meth.
6 - Many professionals are marijuana users. The stereotype of a lazy fuck-up exists for smokers and non-smokers alike. Some notable smokers include Bill Gates, Rick Steves, Pablo Picasso, Steve Jobs, Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, Francis Crick, Andrew Weil, Kary Mullis, Oliver Sacks, Richard Feynman, and the list goes on and on if you care to look.
7 - If marijuana was legalized, the gateway drug argument would be rendered moot. It would separate its black market dealings from other drugs such as heroin and cocaine. It would be controlled and regulated, and would not lead to harder drugs any more than alcohol or tobacco would.
8 - Studies have shown that marijuana use does not negatively impact your brain, but it is a moot point when discussing legality. Alcohol is 100% proven to damage your brain, liver, and many other systems in your body, and yet it remains legal. Cannabis' negative physical side effects are at the worst controversial, and at best hardly existent. This is not a basis for prohibition.
I'm not in favour of neither alcohol nor tobacco. Like I've already said.
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yes because it is not gonna hurt anyone
no because then you get to smoke what the government decides for you - genetic engineered CRAP (and we all know how that worked out for food)
with the state of how things are worldwide right now i'd say no
is weed necessary? hell yes! why? because it is food lifestock, it can be used in constarction (for isolation), paper products raw materials, textiles, plastics, medicine and list goes on and on and on
not to fucking mention there are cases of fucking curing fucking cancer
but guess how many industries it covers and how much a selected group of people would be pissed if we get to use cannabis as it is supposed to be used
so the actual question should we legalize it is much deeper and can't be answered with yes or no
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On September 05 2012 08:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
1 - Total deaths from Cannabis overdose: 0
2 - Total deaths caused from alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs: hundreds of thousands per year.
3 - Marijuana's current status as illegal does not prevent anyone from smoking it who cares to. Depending on what poll you look at, 40-60 percent of the US population under the age of 21 has smoked at least once, and about 10-15 percent smoke regularly. We've all heard anecdotal evidence that high school age children often have a harder time acquiring beer than marijuana.
4 - Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffer from disease for which marijuana can provide some relief, but are denied access.
5 - Marijuana laws typically prosecute marijuana users on a similar level to users of cocaine, heroin, and meth.
6 - Many professionals are marijuana users. The stereotype of a lazy fuck-up exists for smokers and non-smokers alike. Some notable smokers include Bill Gates, Rick Steves, Pablo Picasso, Steve Jobs, Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, Francis Crick, Andrew Weil, Kary Mullis, Oliver Sacks, Richard Feynman, and the list goes on and on if you care to look.
7 - If marijuana was legalized, the gateway drug argument would be rendered moot. It would separate its black market dealings from other drugs such as heroin and cocaine. It would be controlled and regulated, and would not lead to harder drugs any more than alcohol or tobacco would.
8 - Studies have shown that marijuana use does not negatively impact your brain, but it is a moot point when discussing legality. Alcohol is 100% proven to damage your brain, liver, and many other systems in your body, and yet it remains legal. Cannabis' negative physical side effects are at the worst controversial, and at best hardly existent. This is not a basis for prohibition.
i wish everyone would see these points. oh boy  . great summarization.
but hey, most of the contra arguments on TL consist of "i dont like the smell duh". so i guess the next generations are aware of these truths
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On September 05 2012 08:42 FrigolitH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
1 - Total deaths from Cannabis overdose: 0
2 - Total deaths caused from alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs: hundreds of thousands per year.
3 - Marijuana's current status as illegal does not prevent anyone from smoking it who cares to. Depending on what poll you look at, 40-60 percent of the US population under the age of 21 has smoked at least once, and about 10-15 percent smoke regularly. We've all heard anecdotal evidence that high school age children often have a harder time acquiring beer than marijuana.
4 - Hundreds of thousands of Americans suffer from disease for which marijuana can provide some relief, but are denied access.
5 - Marijuana laws typically prosecute marijuana users on a similar level to users of cocaine, heroin, and meth.
6 - Many professionals are marijuana users. The stereotype of a lazy fuck-up exists for smokers and non-smokers alike. Some notable smokers include Bill Gates, Rick Steves, Pablo Picasso, Steve Jobs, Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, Francis Crick, Andrew Weil, Kary Mullis, Oliver Sacks, Richard Feynman, and the list goes on and on if you care to look.
7 - If marijuana was legalized, the gateway drug argument would be rendered moot. It would separate its black market dealings from other drugs such as heroin and cocaine. It would be controlled and regulated, and would not lead to harder drugs any more than alcohol or tobacco would.
8 - Studies have shown that marijuana use does not negatively impact your brain, but it is a moot point when discussing legality. Alcohol is 100% proven to damage your brain, liver, and many other systems in your body, and yet it remains legal. Cannabis' negative physical side effects are at the worst controversial, and at best hardly existent. This is not a basis for prohibition. I'm not in favour of neither alcohol nor tobacco. Like I've already said.
But they are already legal, so as long as they are, its a ridiculous double standard.
How about my other seven points?
EDIT: As long as we're making things illegal that are unhealthy and potentially life threatening, we can add bacon and prescription drugs to the list as well. Don't even get me started on guns.
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On September 05 2012 08:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
1 - Total deaths from Cannabis overdose: 0
it is not even possible on a medical science level to determine the level of thc it takes to kill a living being
no matter how hard they tried they never reached it with animals
swallow 5 aspirins and call 911 :D
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On September 05 2012 08:27 NonCorporeal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:20 TALegion wrote:On September 05 2012 05:09 SupLilSon wrote:On September 05 2012 05:05 TALegion wrote:On September 05 2012 02:38 Lann555 wrote:
And just to add to the actual topic:
There can be no logical argument for the criminalization of cannabis in a society that allows garbage like tobacco to be sold on every street-corner. The way I see it there are two positions that make sense:
-criminalize all drugs
-legalize cannabis
Im pro-legalization and I disagree with that. Tobacco and alcohol aren't legal because no one thinks that they're wrong, it's just that it's far too late to do anything about it. If it were possible to make them illegal without the side effects of black markets and organized crime, it would be done immediately. While you and I know that marijuana is not even on the same scale of danger as tobacco and alcohol, it is still thought of as being on the plane. Thinking of it from someone else's perspective, it would be like if alcohol was illegal and we were arguing for whether it should be legal. Even if they're barely even comparable in terms of actual side effects and dangers, some people believe in a straight-edge morality that doesn't want any drugs being legal at all. I'd say that comprises about 15% of all anti-legalization advocates. The other 85%, who likely live some level of unhealthy lifestyles, are just ignorant hypocrites. Tobacco and Alcohol wouldn't be made illegal, not in a million years. The government makes WAY too much damn money off both of them. Once the government sets up the infrastructure for taxing marijuana in the same fashion it will be legalized. You see this happening slowly as singular states open up dispensiaries. America did make alcohol illegal. They had to undo it, though, because the market still existed and the business only made organized crime more powerful. It was the lesser of two evils to have it legal. The same could be said about marijuana.
I do agree, but the scenarios are a little bit different.
Alcohol is not only a much larger industry, but was already legal. It became an enormous problem after it was made illegal, moreso than its issues when it was legal. So, it was a lesser of two evils.
Weed has been illegal for so long that the past cannot be compared to the present because the world is so different. Weed, while suffers from the same problems of black markets and organized crime, doesn't really have a past to point at as their credibility. Alcohol could say, "Look at how much better we were doing before," but weed doesn't have a significantly positive past to show its positive effects.
It is a similar scenario, and it makes sense to treat them equally, but this is how (I believe) idiots think of it now. Legalized alcohol was the better choice, but weed hasn't had a comparative time to make legalization seem like a good idea.
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the alcohol vs cannabis is not a place to go
imagine if everybody who is drinking was actually smoking grass - there would be no anger, no depression, no fear which are the main cogs of the military industry called the USA
guess who wins
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On September 05 2012 09:25 mRpolite wrote:
the alcohol vs cannabis is not a place to go
imagine if everybody who is drinking was actually smoking grass - there would be no anger, no depression, no fear which are the main cogs of the military industry called the USA
guess who wins
Oh man if everyone was high, lol
I'm laughing my butt off by the mere thought of it.
If everyone is high, I think that we would be much more productive. I don't know about anyone else but I'm a very introverted guy in terms of expressing my ideas and when I'm on it, I introduce them with very vivid clarity. And people are able to follow them properly.
But the side effect of weed is that when the climax have been surpassed, your energy would be drained by the matter of seconds and eventually doze off.
That's what most of the people have trouble dealing with unlike being sober, the crash is non-existent.
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On September 05 2012 09:31 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:25 mRpolite wrote:
the alcohol vs cannabis is not a place to go
imagine if everybody who is drinking was actually smoking grass - there would be no anger, no depression, no fear which are the main cogs of the military industry called the USA
guess who wins Oh man if everyone was high, lol I'm laughing my butt off by the mere thought of it. If everyone is high, I think that we would be much more productive. I don't know about anyone else but I'm a very introverted guy in terms of expressing my ideas and when I'm on it, I introduce them with very vivid clarity. And people are able to follow them properly. But the side effect of weed is that when the climax have been surpassed, your energy would be drained by the matter of seconds and eventually doze off. That's what most of the people have trouble dealing with unlike being sober, the crash is non-existent.
My friends and I are the exact opposite way with describing thoughts when we're high. We start talking, leaving out a ton of detail we just assume is common knowledge, then forget what we were talking about mid-sentence and just laugh.
I really don't think weed would lead to a more productive society. But I also don't think tobacco or alcohol does either.
I'm for legalization, but just so people can do what they want. Yeah, it might have some medical benefits, all the more reason to do it. But the negatives are there too: addiction is possible, laziness is pretty well correlated, and it can't be good for your lungs (I really don't think any smoke could be).
It's kind of silly to say there's only good that can come from something, or only bad. Obviously everything has a good and a bad side, and in the case of marijuana, the good outweighs the bad.
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On September 05 2012 08:48 mRpolite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
1 - Total deaths from Cannabis overdose: 0
it is not even possible on a medical science level to determine the level of thc it takes to kill a living being no matter how hard they tried they never reached it with animals swallow 5 aspirins and call 911 :D
Not saying you're wrong, but I've posted this three times now:
http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/mj_overdose.htm
46 lbs in a 150 lb person would not produce a fatality. They believe that 1500 lbs ingested all within a short period of hours would be the fatal dose. However you would probably be dying of the fact more of your body is now MJ instead of your actual body cell rather than from the MJ itself.
tl;dr Its mathematically impossible to die from MJ overdose. Either that, or it requires a LOT of ingenuity just to ingest enough in a short time.
Just trying to stick to the facts!
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EPT
