On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Multiculturalism does work. It has to weave for generations, but it does work. Even from a small scale - I went to school/uni with many different people from many different backgrounds, viewing each other as equals. The only down side - from a long long term perspective - is the dilution of the cutlure who originally existed in the space, everywhere becomes the same with slight (probably mainly historic) differences.
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Pure growth numbers are just as useless if you don't take anything else in account. Besides the Turkish economy is very volatile it can jst as well decline 5% in the next year.
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Pure growth numbers are just as useless if you don't take anything else in account. Besides the Turkish economy is very volatile it can jst as well decline 5% in the next year.
This a 1000 times...
I'm sure there are 3d World countries with double digit growth rates, but they are still 3d world countries... 50% more than nearly nothing is still nearly nothing for a pretty long time... Compared to 1.5% of "loads".
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Pure growth numbers are just as useless if you don't take anything else in account. Besides the Turkish economy is very volatile it can jst as well decline 5% in the next year.
Turkish GDP per capita is 14,600 USD so nothing to be sneezed at.And i am taking everything into account , I am sure that $100 will buy you more in Turkey than in Germany.
Finally lets not forget how much the value of the Euro currency has fallen the past 8 months.It's down over 10% vs the Turkish Lira for example.
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
You're right about simple wage comparison. At the same time you make exactly the same comparison about economic growth, which is just as useless. As far as my statement in my first is concerned, I should have added that purchasing power in West Europe is higher than in Turkey along all classes of society. There might be few exceptions, especially among high skilled laborers and graduates who cannot find work in West Europe but can do so in Turkey. However, for unskilled labor you're purchasing power is going to be higher in West Europe, not to mention than you also have insurance, often enough better working conditions, and a safety net to fall back on. Furthermore, you really underestimate welfare in Germany (from what I know BeNeLux, Austria, Scandinavia are comparable if not better). An unemployed family with two kids receive about €2.5k/month in benefits and cash, and obviously don't have to pay taxes. This also includes housing and insurance. You can be sure that no matter what job in Turkey you get as an unskilled worker, you won't be even remotely close to what welfare in Germany earns you and allows you to do.
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Pure growth numbers are just as useless if you don't take anything else in account. Besides the Turkish economy is very volatile it can jst as well decline 5% in the next year.
Turkish GDP per capita is 14,600 USD so nothing to be sneezed at.And i am taking everything into account , I am sure that $100 will buy you more in Turkey than in Germany. Finally lets not forget how much the value of the Euro currency has fallen the past 8 months.It's down over 10% vs the Turkish Lira for example.
The only thing this does, is increase purchasing power abroad...
Don't get me wrong, Turkey has had a very good economic development in recent years, but they are still far behind the European economic powerhouses. You are also completely right that prices in Turkey are normally lower than in West Europe, but the purchasing power is, too.
Well i never underestimated the welfare in those countries , i stated a few posts back that when western countries do eventually go bankrupt from the welfare state then these foreigners will mostly go home as they came for economic reasons on the whole.
As for value of the Euro declining this just means that imported goods are more expensive thus making standard of living lower.Europe imports most things these days - clothes , shoes , electronics , oil & gas (Mostly from Russia) etc.
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Pure growth numbers are just as useless if you don't take anything else in account. Besides the Turkish economy is very volatile it can jst as well decline 5% in the next year.
Turkish GDP per capita is 14,600 USD so nothing to be sneezed at.And i am taking everything into account , I am sure that $100 will buy you more in Turkey than in Germany.
Finally lets not forget how much the value of the Euro currency has fallen the past 8 months.It's down over 10% vs the Turkish Lira for example.
I recall going to turkey twice about 10 years ago, second time they needed to invent a 1,000,000 lira coin due to the rediculous inflation that was going on back then. I recall you payed a million for a roll of cookies, about 1.30 in euro's.
The turkish lira growing 10% compared to the Euro does not say much considering the depths from which it was climbing. There's a good reason why 10 years ago they didn't invite Turkey to join in the Euro.
On August 14 2012 21:40 ggrrg wrote: Wages for unskilled and even skilled labor in Turkey are still lower than welfare checks in Germany, nevermind actual wages. The same applies to other European countries with a large Turkish population. I know several people born in Germany who are from Turskish ancestry and decided to live in Turkey, but none of them chose this because of the economic situation.
Like for like wage comparison is useless you must also compare house prices , food prices , taxes, fees and charges etc. Besides wage comparison is useless if you cannot get a job in Europe correct? Like i say Turkish growth 7.5% last year EU growth 1.6%....
Care to look fo inflation and other factors? Inflation alone is 9 percent.
On August 14 2012 18:22 Kavallerie wrote: Multiculturalism should be allowed to an extent. However you can't stop racism because it comes naturally for all humans. Therefore a heavy amount of multiculturalism is not healthy for otherwise homogeneous nations.
Why would racism be natural? Racism has to do with prejudice. Prejudice is not something that comes naturally.
Racism comes naturally, whether you would like to believe it or not. Many people are "racist" without even recognizing themselves as racists. That's why I don't like how the word "racist" is used in its current meaning as depicted by the media.
If you define yourself as part of the European or Caucasian race, there you go, you believe that a division in race exists in the world.
Racism and prejudice based on racism are two entirely different things. Discriminating someone based on race, now that is against the law and should not come naturally. However it does for some people.
You might want to take another look at the definition of racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, or the belief that members of a race is superior to another. This does not come naturally, as children often don't have it. It's something that's learned later in life along with stereotypes.
On August 14 2012 18:22 Kavallerie wrote: Multiculturalism should be allowed to an extent. However you can't stop racism because it comes naturally for all humans. Therefore a heavy amount of multiculturalism is not healthy for otherwise homogeneous nations.
Why would racism be natural? Racism has to do with prejudice. Prejudice is not something that comes naturally.
Racism comes naturally, whether you would like to believe it or not. Many people are "racist" without even recognizing themselves as racists. That's why I don't like how the word "racist" is used in its current meaning as depicted by the media.
If you define yourself as part of the European or Caucasian race, there you go, you believe that a division in race exists in the world.
Racism and prejudice based on racism are two entirely different things. Discriminating someone based on race, now that is against the law and should not come naturally. However it does for some people.
You might want to take another look at the definition of racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, or the belief that members of a race is superior to another. This does not come naturally, as children often don't have it. It's something that's learned later in life along with stereotypes.
While I usually love your postings I think you might be wrong on this one. The basis for pretty much any "-ism" is that xy is not part of the groups I consider myself part of and some general concept of things being inferior/superior to others.
Children, if left alone, are incredibly cruel to other children who aren't "part of their group". Mostly because they lack the depth of moral codes and experiences adults have. Like, throw a black, white and yellow child into the same area and I'm sure they'll get along just fine. Throw in 5 white kids, a black kid and give them the initial thought of "blacks aren't the same as white" and they'll bully the kid to hell and back.
The major difference is that at an early age kids don't consider most things harmful (pretty much below 10-12), they hardly have preconveived ideas about color of skin, behaviour (or weird drooling guys in vans who offer them candy). Once they're past that age the whole bullying usually starts to get pretty heavy as soon as someone can be identified as an "outsider".
What's going on in France right at the moment. They burned down a school, a gymnasium, and ~ a hundred cars after one of their friend driving dangerously got stopped by the police.
/end of thread I guess
translation Black guy : "Represent "Amiens North-side", here I am with my Algerian, Tunisian, Morrocan, Gabonese, etc... Africans... homies ".
On August 14 2012 18:22 Kavallerie wrote: Multiculturalism should be allowed to an extent. However you can't stop racism because it comes naturally for all humans. Therefore a heavy amount of multiculturalism is not healthy for otherwise homogeneous nations.
Why would racism be natural? Racism has to do with prejudice. Prejudice is not something that comes naturally.
Racism comes naturally, whether you would like to believe it or not. Many people are "racist" without even recognizing themselves as racists. That's why I don't like how the word "racist" is used in its current meaning as depicted by the media.
If you define yourself as part of the European or Caucasian race, there you go, you believe that a division in race exists in the world.
Racism and prejudice based on racism are two entirely different things. Discriminating someone based on race, now that is against the law and should not come naturally. However it does for some people.
You might want to take another look at the definition of racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, or the belief that members of a race is superior to another. This does not come naturally, as children often don't have it. It's something that's learned later in life along with stereotypes.
While I usually love your postings I think you might be wrong on this one. The basis for pretty much any "-ism" is that xy is not part of the groups I consider myself part of and some general concept of things being inferior/superior to others.
Children, if left alone, are incredibly cruel to other children who aren't "part of their group". Mostly because they lack the depth of moral codes and experiences adults have. Like, throw a black, white and yellow child into the same area and I'm sure they'll get along just fine. Throw in 5 white kids, a black kid and give them the initial thought of "blacks aren't the same as white" and they'll bully the kid to hell and back.
The major difference is that at an early age kids don't consider most things harmful (pretty much below 10-12), they hardly have preconveived ideas about color of skin, behaviour (or weird drooling guys in vans who offer them candy). Once they're past that age the whole bullying usually starts to get pretty heavy as soon as someone can be identified as an "outsider".
Yeah, it might've been a bad point. I was just reminiscing my childhood and I went to school with one black kid and the rest of the school was all white. I only recall being a little jealous that I couldn't get that curly hair as I hated going to the hairdresser. Later on there were kids picking on a guy for having ugly clothes, but none ever saw the black kid as different really. I still think that racism comes in the same way as religion in the sense that different versions have popped out all over the world, and it's very common, but it's not something that comes individually, but rather something that is taught or learned when you get a little older.
On August 14 2012 18:22 Kavallerie wrote: Multiculturalism should be allowed to an extent. However you can't stop racism because it comes naturally for all humans. Therefore a heavy amount of multiculturalism is not healthy for otherwise homogeneous nations.
Why would racism be natural? Racism has to do with prejudice. Prejudice is not something that comes naturally.
Racism comes naturally, whether you would like to believe it or not. Many people are "racist" without even recognizing themselves as racists. That's why I don't like how the word "racist" is used in its current meaning as depicted by the media.
If you define yourself as part of the European or Caucasian race, there you go, you believe that a division in race exists in the world.
Racism and prejudice based on racism are two entirely different things. Discriminating someone based on race, now that is against the law and should not come naturally. However it does for some people.
You might want to take another look at the definition of racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, or the belief that members of a race is superior to another. This does not come naturally, as children often don't have it. It's something that's learned later in life along with stereotypes.
While I usually love your postings I think you might be wrong on this one. The basis for pretty much any "-ism" is that xy is not part of the groups I consider myself part of and some general concept of things being inferior/superior to others.
Children, if left alone, are incredibly cruel to other children who aren't "part of their group". Mostly because they lack the depth of moral codes and experiences adults have. Like, throw a black, white and yellow child into the same area and I'm sure they'll get along just fine. Throw in 5 white kids, a black kid and give them the initial thought of "blacks aren't the same as white" and they'll bully the kid to hell and back.
The major difference is that at an early age kids don't consider most things harmful (pretty much below 10-12), they hardly have preconveived ideas about color of skin, behaviour (or weird drooling guys in vans who offer them candy). Once they're past that age the whole bullying usually starts to get pretty heavy as soon as someone can be identified as an "outsider".
Yep, Lord of the Flies--the in group ended up bullying Piggy to death simply because Piggy was the only one of the marooned survivors who wore glasses.
On August 14 2012 18:22 Kavallerie wrote: Multiculturalism should be allowed to an extent. However you can't stop racism because it comes naturally for all humans. Therefore a heavy amount of multiculturalism is not healthy for otherwise homogeneous nations.
Why would racism be natural? Racism has to do with prejudice. Prejudice is not something that comes naturally.
Racism comes naturally, whether you would like to believe it or not. Many people are "racist" without even recognizing themselves as racists. That's why I don't like how the word "racist" is used in its current meaning as depicted by the media.
If you define yourself as part of the European or Caucasian race, there you go, you believe that a division in race exists in the world.
Racism and prejudice based on racism are two entirely different things. Discriminating someone based on race, now that is against the law and should not come naturally. However it does for some people.
You might want to take another look at the definition of racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, or the belief that members of a race is superior to another. This does not come naturally, as children often don't have it. It's something that's learned later in life along with stereotypes.
While I usually love your postings I think you might be wrong on this one. The basis for pretty much any "-ism" is that xy is not part of the groups I consider myself part of and some general concept of things being inferior/superior to others.
Children, if left alone, are incredibly cruel to other children who aren't "part of their group". Mostly because they lack the depth of moral codes and experiences adults have. Like, throw a black, white and yellow child into the same area and I'm sure they'll get along just fine. Throw in 5 white kids, a black kid and give them the initial thought of "blacks aren't the same as white" and they'll bully the kid to hell and back.
The major difference is that at an early age kids don't consider most things harmful (pretty much below 10-12), they hardly have preconveived ideas about color of skin, behaviour (or weird drooling guys in vans who offer them candy). Once they're past that age the whole bullying usually starts to get pretty heavy as soon as someone can be identified as an "outsider".
Yep, Lord of the Flies--the in group ended up bullying Piggy to death simply because Piggy was the only one of the marooned survivors who wore glasses.
In Harry Potter none regarded the black kids differently.
On August 14 2012 18:22 Kavallerie wrote: Multiculturalism should be allowed to an extent. However you can't stop racism because it comes naturally for all humans. Therefore a heavy amount of multiculturalism is not healthy for otherwise homogeneous nations.
Why would racism be natural? Racism has to do with prejudice. Prejudice is not something that comes naturally.
Racism comes naturally, whether you would like to believe it or not. Many people are "racist" without even recognizing themselves as racists. That's why I don't like how the word "racist" is used in its current meaning as depicted by the media.
If you define yourself as part of the European or Caucasian race, there you go, you believe that a division in race exists in the world.
Racism and prejudice based on racism are two entirely different things. Discriminating someone based on race, now that is against the law and should not come naturally. However it does for some people.
You might want to take another look at the definition of racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, or the belief that members of a race is superior to another. This does not come naturally, as children often don't have it. It's something that's learned later in life along with stereotypes.
While I usually love your postings I think you might be wrong on this one. The basis for pretty much any "-ism" is that xy is not part of the groups I consider myself part of and some general concept of things being inferior/superior to others.
Children, if left alone, are incredibly cruel to other children who aren't "part of their group". Mostly because they lack the depth of moral codes and experiences adults have. Like, throw a black, white and yellow child into the same area and I'm sure they'll get along just fine. Throw in 5 white kids, a black kid and give them the initial thought of "blacks aren't the same as white" and they'll bully the kid to hell and back.
The major difference is that at an early age kids don't consider most things harmful (pretty much below 10-12), they hardly have preconveived ideas about color of skin, behaviour (or weird drooling guys in vans who offer them candy). Once they're past that age the whole bullying usually starts to get pretty heavy as soon as someone can be identified as an "outsider".
Yep, Lord of the Flies--the in group ended up bullying Piggy to death simply because Piggy was the only one of the marooned survivors who wore glasses.
In Harry Potter none regarded the black kids differently.
That's because they were busy discriminating against everyone with Muggle blood (in between trying to save the world and not get slaughtered by death eaters).
Having a mutual enemy helps tons. My 6th grade teacher used to say something that I now regard as very wise:
"An alien invasion would be the only scenario under which all of humanity could unite in peace"
Multiculturalism can work as long as one of the cultures isn't antagonistic to the other(s). The issue is when you have a minority group that is encouraged to feel like they're discriminated against and have no hope succeeding in the system they're in. So they give up trying to assimilate, they take up alternative structures of meaning (gangs, etc), and their entire culture becomes an antagonistic "F U" to mainstream society (behavior, speech, dress, etc) to the point where life is unpleasant for everyone. I don't think it's coincidental that Obama (the most successful black American in history) was essentially raised outside of black American culture (Hawaii and southeast Asia). And if you look at the highest paid blacks in the US, they are predominately recent African immigrants working in the medical field with PhDs. They didn't have the black American worldview hammered into them so they didn't have the same barriers to integration. This is why I think it's incredible harmful and irresponsible for people like Russell Simmons and Joe Biden to say "they're going to put you in chains" or "tear our people apart". Those kinds of statements only help to keep that antagonism an essential part of the black American identity.
It described the rioters as “the opposition” and ran through the list of the mostly Muslim former French colonies from which it said they were from: “Algerians, Tunisians, Moroccans, Gabonese, Malians and Cameroonians, we are all here and we are opposing.”
Multiculturalism, won't work if the people aren't willing to assimilate.
When a countries economy goes down, some of the first people to be blamed are those on welfare with high rape rates. Most of these are people are illegal immigrants in first world societies.
IMO, once the economy collapses in Europe, I expect there to be some very violent ethnic conflict in the horizon. Just look at Greece with their 'Golden Dawn' party movement. When shit hits the fan, and people don't have jobs, a lot of European countries will go the same way as Greece...
EPT
