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Listen to the recording or read the transcript before posting D:<
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/popupaudio.html?clipIds=2249132128
Here is a Lecture by Kenan Malik on the topic of Multiculturalism. He talks about the history of multiculturalism in Europe and dispels some myths regarding multiculturalism and immigration that we hold today.
Here is an intro by the dude himself and a transcript in case you would rather read or would like to read with the recording.
"Entitled ‘What is Wrong with Multiculturalism? A European Perspective’, the lecture pulled together many of the themes about immigration, identity, diversity and multiculturalism of which I have been talking and writing recently."
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/what-is-wrong-with-multiculturalism-part-1/
So yeah, I guess the purpose of this thread is public awareness of this information on the topic of multiculturalism as well as to debate and discuss his thoughts and ideas.
Quotes from the talk:
His conclusion:
Multiculturalism, on the other hand, by reposing political problems in terms of culture or faith, transforms political conflicts into a form that makes them neither useful nor resolvable. Multicultural policies both constrain the kinds of clashes of opinion that could prove politically fruitful, and unleash the kinds of conflicts that are socially damaging. They transform political debates into cultural collisions and, by imprisoning individuals within their cultures and identities, make such collisions both inevitable and insoluble.
The lesson of Europe, it seems to me, is that if we want to preserve diversity as lived experience, we need also to challenge multiculturalism as a political process.
He supports it by disproving myths:
The first is the idea that European nations used to be homogenous but have become plural in a historically unique fashion.
The second claim is that contemporary immigration is different to previous waves, so much so that social structures need fundamental reorganization to accommodate it.
And third is the belief that European nations have adopted multicultural policies because minorities demanded it.
Both sides in the multiculturalism debate accept these claims. Where they differ is in whether they view immigration, and the social changes it has brought about, as a good or as an ill. Both sides, I want to suggest, are wrong, because these three premises upon which they base their arguments are flawed.
thanks JieXian lol
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Nothing wrong with multiculturalism as a concept.
From what I have seen here though, instead of a collaborative understanding culture where people share all the perks of their heritage you end up with a cesspool of different isolated cultures that don't get along very well.
I think it's just the implementation here though where people are encouraged to form their own isolated cultures.
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Multiculturalism is suppose to promote leniency and acceptance, but instead creates a lot of ethnocentrism as well as difficulty in ethnic and culture identity amongst youths.
I think a book by David Mathews potrays his difficulty with both identification of blacks and whites.
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I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem.
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On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem.
That's not multiculturalism. That cultural segregation.
If it was multicultural, there wouldn't be an area that Native Americans designated as their own.
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On August 11 2012 14:16 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem. That's not multiculturalism. That cultural segregation. If it was multicultural, there wouldn't be an area that Native Americans designated as their own.
Using that definition of multicultural (everyone willingly integrates) ... Would anyone really be against multiculturalism?
I don't see how it's possible to have an argument in this thread. The title represents a flawed premise. No one is attacking multiculturalism.
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On August 11 2012 14:16 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem. That's not multiculturalism. That cultural segregation. If it was multicultural, there wouldn't be an area that Native Americans designated as their own.
It's not really segregation as they're free to come and go as they please. Many of them stay because the reservation acts as a kind of community outreach program, and people of Native American heritage get a payment yearly from the res.
It also negotiates with NYS almost as a sovereign nation. I'm not sure on the whole story, but there's some issue where the reservation government is actually preventing NYS road crews from fixing up a stretch of highway that runs through there. If they have that much power, they aren't just a means of segregation.
That road SUCKS btw
Found it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattaraugus_Reservation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation
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On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem.
Multiculturalism (or lack of) can't be blanketly applied to all Indian through one tribe... it differs from tribe to tribe but impoverishment runs pretty common throughout most.
My tribe the Oneida Nation of Wisconsin is vastly different and has been a willing partner for the most part with the state, fed and integration (the majority live off reservation and have high education rates...)
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On August 11 2012 14:30 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem. Multiculturalism can't be blanketly applied to all Indian resser's through one tribe... it differs from tribe to tribe but impoverishment runs pretty common throughout most. My tribe the Oneida Nation of Wisconsin is vastly different and has been a willing partner for the most part with the state, fed and integration (the majority live off reservation and have high education rates...)
I figured as much, it's just my experience with it, and my explanation for the problems they have.
Your tribe seems to have taken the high-road, keeping as much of your culture as you can, but being reasonable about it. The Seneca's though, haven't been as cooperative. They're constantly threatening tire fires, and on rare occasions, a native will literally get away with murder, because it happened on their land and their courts have jurisdiction.
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On August 11 2012 14:36 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 14:30 forgottendreams wrote:On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem. Multiculturalism can't be blanketly applied to all Indian resser's through one tribe... it differs from tribe to tribe but impoverishment runs pretty common throughout most. My tribe the Oneida Nation of Wisconsin is vastly different and has been a willing partner for the most part with the state, fed and integration (the majority live off reservation and have high education rates...) I figured as much, it's just my experience with it, and my explanation for the problems they have. Your tribe seems to have taken the high-road, keeping as much of your culture as you can, but being reasonable about it. The Seneca's though, haven't been as cooperative. They're constantly threatening tire fires, and on rare occasions, a native will literally get away with murder, because it happened on their land and their courts have jurisdiction.
Depends on the tribe man... alot of other tribal peoples (like our own COUGH) hate especially activist tribes like the Navajo's, Oneida Nation of New York or the Oglala's (although I guess they have a good reason to still be pissed...).
Although this thread was aimed at European mutliculturalism, it would be a tough case to say its failed here, and although using Indian tribes would be an especially strong point, hereto it can faulter in that the United States has treated many tribes truly as a sovereign entity and were never meant for full integration.
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I really don't think talking about native American indian tribes really relates well to the issues in Europe.
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On August 11 2012 14:43 DannyJ wrote:
I really don't think talking about native American indian tribes really relates well to the issues in Europe.
I agree... further discussion about Native tribes should be quashed lol...
P.S. Native Americans cannot get away with murder or other serious crimes under the General Crimes Act or the MJA which subjects them to Federal prosecution concurrently with tribal prosecution (exception only under rare circumstances like a treaty or Congressional delegation)
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On August 11 2012 14:41 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 14:36 Millitron wrote:On August 11 2012 14:30 forgottendreams wrote:On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem. Multiculturalism can't be blanketly applied to all Indian resser's through one tribe... it differs from tribe to tribe but impoverishment runs pretty common throughout most. My tribe the Oneida Nation of Wisconsin is vastly different and has been a willing partner for the most part with the state, fed and integration (the majority live off reservation and have high education rates...) I figured as much, it's just my experience with it, and my explanation for the problems they have. Your tribe seems to have taken the high-road, keeping as much of your culture as you can, but being reasonable about it. The Seneca's though, haven't been as cooperative. They're constantly threatening tire fires, and on rare occasions, a native will literally get away with murder, because it happened on their land and their courts have jurisdiction. Depends on the tribe man... alot of other tribal peoples (like our own COUGH) hate especially activist tribes like the Navajo's, Oneida Nation of New York or the Oglala's (although I guess they have a good reason to still be pissed...). Although this thread was aimed at European mutliculturalism, it would be a tough case to say its failed here, and although using Indian tribes would be an especially strong point, hereto it can faulter in that the United States has treated many tribes truly as a sovereign entity and were never meant for full integration.
I think the way the natives are treated in Alaska should be the model. They don't have their own reservations, but still manage to keep the positives of their culture. Northwest Coast art is making a huge comeback, and is providing quite a boost to their economy; they sell totem poles for 1000$ per foot. But since they don't have their own little realm, they have to try to fit in with the rest of the world.
This might be getting off-topic, so if you want to continue you can PM me.
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Anyone willing to explain to an American what Malik means by a multicultural "political process," since he's so careful to distinguish that from "lived experience"?
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On August 11 2012 14:56 gorbonic wrote:
Anyone willing to explain to an American what Malik means by a multicultural "political process," since he's so careful to distinguish that from "lived experience"?
oh, he just means that "multiculturalism" was used by the state for it's own means, rather than immigrants "fighting" for multiculturalism. the example of germany was that immigrants were "guest workers" and denied citizenship. etc..
i may be wrong... but yeah, he explains it way better ofc, so yeah ^__^;;
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Heres something to think about, we all evolved from the same species, we are all the same species. The differences in how we look, or in out culture is developed by aspects of our lives that are 100% not in our control.
And yet people judge others for it.
Pretty fucked up right.
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There is nothing wrong with multiculturalism assuming you desire to deny that some cultures can foster behavior which has a negative effect on society, such as an inclination towards violence. The truth is that not all cultures are equal, some are better or worse than others.
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Croatia466 Posts
On August 11 2012 14:30 forgottendreams wrote:
My tribe the Oneida Nation of Wisconsin is vastly different and has been a willing partner for the most part with the state, fed and integration (the majority live off reservation and have high education rates...)
This. Problems arise when 1) the majority are racist assholes (happens more often than we would like to admit) and/or 2) minority groups willingly segregate themselves even further and actively oppose ANY attempt at assimilation, especially when they demand special rights which are mostly based on their religion (So you wanna wear a niqab in a country where balaclavas and facewear are banned in public? Or circumcise your children in countries where it's illegal? Too bad, assimilate or move somewhere where it's tolerated. I even remember a case in Germany a few years back where a man claimed in court that he had the right to beat his wife under Sharia Law. Yeah bitch, too bad you're in GERMANY under THEIR LAW.)
The other problem is that 1 leads to 2 and vice-versa, so you have a vicious circle.
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On August 11 2012 14:24 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 14:16 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote:
I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem. That's not multiculturalism. That cultural segregation. If it was multicultural, there wouldn't be an area that Native Americans designated as their own. Using that definition of multicultural (everyone willingly integrates) ... Would anyone really be against multiculturalism?
Yes. You're correct that most individuals won't openly express that they're against it but the cultural units themselves will be against it. The first goal of any type of organisation (whether it's an ant- or beehive, a corporation, a state, religion or a culture) is self-preservation. If another entity threatens that organisation it will be fought.
That's also the reason why some legislations that were intended to be pro-multiculture (think of a random person stepping into a conflict between two random organisations) like forced migrations, quotas, integration projects in school tend to fuel anti-multiculturalist points of view without originally intending to do so.
The solution? Stop trying to work on integrating everyone into the same puddle of mud by telling people they're all the same. No one wants to hear or live that. Start telling people that others are different and it's okay that others are different. Everything has strengths and weaknesses.
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Multiculturalism doesn't work. You need some form of cohession, some larger culture that everyone somehow feels a part of.
If not that, it is simply cultural segregation, something which is already a fact in many places in Europe.
Not all cultures are equal.
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EPT
