They are a miniority, the french people themselves voted massively for the people who opened the gates, blaming a group with a 2 percent voting infuence is silly on so many levels.
Anyway seems france has enough problems.
A Marseilles restaurant owner was threatened and attacked at the beginning of the week because he did not want to observe Ramadan, it has been learned today from a source close to the inquiry, confirming information from the daily La Provence.
Aged 64-years-old, the restaurant-owner, a Frenchman of Egyptian origin not practising the Muslim religion, was approached on Monday by an individual walking around with a veiled woman. Several times the suspect demanded that the businessman, who operates in the Belsunce district (centre of Marseilles), to close his establishment for Ramadan, failing which he would undertake reprisals against him. One hour later, the individual returned and struck him a violent blow with his belt. Wounded by the metal part of the belt, the restaurant owner was transported to La Conception hospital.
That's what we call "a fait divers", one incident. They're plenty of Muslim restaurants/butchery, in fact most of them, not closing for the Ramadan and nothing ever happened to their owners.
Same with the 21500 terrorist incidents since 9-11 no doubt. Or the ''incidents'' in France Islamic no go zones surrounding Paris.
People need to believe in same ideas for this to work. Middle Ages with Church's Authority are an example... There are too many different people with different ideas to become one body. It's all in the politics. People can't expect each other to work together if there's not much in common between them.
They are a miniority, the french people themselves voted massively for the people who opened the gates, blaming a group with a 2 percent voting infuence is silly on so many levels.
Anyway seems france has enough problems.
A Marseilles restaurant owner was threatened and attacked at the beginning of the week because he did not want to observe Ramadan, it has been learned today from a source close to the inquiry, confirming information from the daily La Provence.
Aged 64-years-old, the restaurant-owner, a Frenchman of Egyptian origin not practising the Muslim religion, was approached on Monday by an individual walking around with a veiled woman. Several times the suspect demanded that the businessman, who operates in the Belsunce district (centre of Marseilles), to close his establishment for Ramadan, failing which he would undertake reprisals against him. One hour later, the individual returned and struck him a violent blow with his belt. Wounded by the metal part of the belt, the restaurant owner was transported to La Conception hospital.
That's what we call "a fait divers", one incident. They're plenty of Muslim restaurants/butchery, in fact most of them, not closing for the Ramadan and nothing ever happened to their owners.
Same with the 21500 terrorist incidents since 9-11 no doubt. Or the ''incidents'' in France Islamic no go zones surrounding Paris.
So many incidents.
You mix everything up. Like there's 2 camp, the zionist anti-islam one, and the pro-deliquency and pro-islamization of Europe with open-borders policy.
That's what the media sells you. Mixing up delinquency, islam, poverty, so that people reject the whole package, when in fact Islam brutally condemns thefts and mindless aggressions, not to mention that a lot of victims are muslims as well.
I'm not pro-islamization, but I'm tired of these jewish intellectuals, and jewish anti-racist lobbies now telling me that Islam sucks and that muslims are inherently violent, after having told my parents that being against muslim immigration means being a nazi.
If I was a mod I'd ban everyone that obviously didnt read the article only the word multiculturalism and decided to post here. I think that this article is a really good.
On August 11 2012 18:38 Psychobabas wrote: Multiculturalism has failed in Europe. Just visit London, probably the most multicultural capital in Europe.
You expect to see a harmonious cooexistence of cultures but what you get are completely segregated neighborhoods according to race and ethnicity. The Pakistanis are doing their own thing in east London, the Somalis their own, the Indians their own, the Africans their own, the Arabs their own, the Chinese their own etc etc all with little will to integrate to British culture, nevermind tolerating other cultures.
Some can barely speak a word of English.
It's the way UK deals with multiculturalism. The spirit is "We are all the same, every culture has the right to live how he wants".
It's pretty cool. The problem is that it implies communitarianism. People use to stay with people like them, their food, their place to live, even their school, they language.
More and more people considere themself as paskistans, indians, muslims, etc, forgetting that they are in fact British, a country with a long history and it's own way of life. It's own culture in short that must be respected because it's the culture of most of people.
And i think this is the problem. Nobody say that muslims must become anglicans or eat fish and chips of course, but considering their are British citizen, they should be proud of it FIRST and their other culture should be secondary.
The communitarianism in UK is a very bad thing imho, because a child is grown as a [put your cultur here if it's not british] and he sees the british culture as a foreign culture, and not a big part of his own.
In short cummunitarianism is the ennemy of integration, witch is the ennemy of a wealthy multiculturalism.
On global topic : multiculturalism is not bad. It's just awfully done in western countries.
(PS : Sorry for my bad english, i try to improve, but it's far to be good )
Multiculuralism will only work when it's no longer seen as multiculturalism; it will only work when all those component cultures see themselves as part of the one culture, rather than part of their original cultures. In saying this, I'm not advocating that everyone joining a larger culture should forget their heritage and take on that culture's aspects, but more that the said culture should be one which has taken on all of the positives of the original cultures (And hopefully cut out many of the negatives, such as harmful traditions), and yet can call those positives its own.
The article is very interesting, although it doesn't stress enough that "multiculturalism" is a sort of stage, not an ideal. People rant about how cultures don't fare well together, but have they forgotten how countries were built in the first place?
They cry and protest at the though of recent changes, but their voices will be lost when the years have passed and when once again everybody is the same.
Xenophobia is a fantasy that wishes the world was such a simple place. Simple conceptions for simple minds.
On August 11 2012 18:38 Psychobabas wrote: Multiculturalism has failed in Europe. Just visit London, probably the most multicultural capital in Europe.
You expect to see a harmonious cooexistence of cultures but what you get are completely segregated neighborhoods according to race and ethnicity. The Pakistanis are doing their own thing in east London, the Somalis their own, the Indians their own, the Africans their own, the Arabs their own, the Chinese their own etc etc all with little will to integrate to British culture, nevermind tolerating other cultures.
Some can barely speak a word of English.
It's the way UK deals with multiculturalism. The spirit is "We are all the same, every culture has the right to live how he wants".
It's pretty cool. The problem is that it implies communitarianism. People use to stay with people like them, their food, their place to live, even their school, they language.
More and more people considere themself as paskistans, indians, muslims, etc, forgetting that they are in fact British, a country with a long history and it's own way of life. It's own culture in short that must be respected because it's the culture of most of people.
And i think this is the problem. Nobody say that muslims must become anglicans or eat fish and chips of course, but considering their are British citizen, they should be proud of it FIRST and their other culture should be secondary.
The communitarianism in UK is a very bad thing imho, because a child is grown as a [put your cultur here if it's not british] and he sees the british culture as a foreign culture, and not a big part of his own.
In short cummunitarianism is the ennemy of integration, witch is the ennemy of a wealthy multiculturalism.
On global topic : multiculturalism is not bad. It's just awfully done in western countries.
(PS : Sorry for my bad english, i try to improve, but it's far to be good )
I think thats about right. Take a look at this (I actually bumped to this in a finnish comedy/internet humour site)
They do not see themselves as inhabitants of England. They see themselves as muslim extremist, who have rights to denounce and bash everything that doesn't belong to their culture and religious rules. Ridiculous.
In the beginning the reporter says that the protest is because arrest of a swedish local woman whose husband set a bomb in 2010.
On August 11 2012 14:14 Millitron wrote: I live in NY, about 20-30 minutes from a Native American reservation. From what I've seen, all multiculturalism does is make people stubborn. If you're part of a minor ethnic group, like the people in that reservation, you're raised to be damn proud of your heritage. The problems with that, are that you never really fit in in the wider world, and that you don't just keep the positive aspects of your culture, you keep the negative ones too because of some twisted version of multiculturalism; "I shouldn't have to change at all, everyone else should have to deal with the way I am, regardless of how terrible I am."
I'm not 100% sure it's all multiculturalism's fault, as the reservation is also pretty destitute, so the problems might be based more in economics; but I can't believe that's the entire problem.
This is only the bad side of being proud of your culture and I agree with it a little bit, some people just think they can do nothing and be ok because they are from a certain culture, but that is just a justification, most people live like that anyway. (Remenber nazis saying they belonged to the super arian-race?, and americans with the first class-second class citizen society?)
I'm an amerindian myself, from Venezuela, but here we have our own reservations too, and being proud of our culture means also to work very hard and be successful to break that cliché of amerindians being inferior, something the white man used to say a lot in his race based-feudal latin american society and that is still repeated today, because racism hasn't gone away, even though not in the public media, racism motivates people to work hard too. The point is, like Malcolm X said, being proud of your origin motivates you to work harder, it is truly like that to be honest, the hardest working people in my community also feel very proud too, but not blindly proud, if you start thinking your culture is superior then you become the thing you hate, it is not about that, it is in a way knowing who you are, something man has done since ever.
Some people need to be reminded they are not inferior, I think in america this used happened when in the 20's-50's some black people though they were inferior to white men, and after hearing about all that was said about second class citizens and their worse economic situation it is only logical, I think those who though they were, were called uncle toms right?, that is one reason my community promotes being proud, because a lot of amerindians in latin america still believe they are inferior and that they should not do this or that because that is for the "white man" (learning english is one of these things they think it's no good for them, 50 years ago it used to be writing and reading), luckily this does not affect the young generation anymore.
I cant really fathom how most of western society works, because it must be so radically different from Brazil.
We are a multicultural society, unlike america and many countries where specific cultures are segretated, here its blend beyond recognition, and the ones who strive for their "original" culture are seen more like medieval reenactors than as a culture per se.
The secret I think is to be somewhat chauvinist while being broad minded.
Dont expect everyone to be the same/act the same and you wont be surprised.
On August 11 2012 15:42 zalz wrote: Multiculturalism doesn't work. You need some form of cohession, some larger culture that everyone somehow feels a part of.
If not that, it is simply cultural segregation, something which is already a fact in many places in Europe.
How well people of different groups function relative to other groups is dependent on the social and economic conditions such as ability to find jobs rather than some groups of people just having better belief and value systems that others. Religious and political extremism emerge from tangible problems like not being able to make ends meet while living in a hostile environment. Even in a country like Canada (or any other country with a large immigrant population) where recognition of foreign credentials is an issue (let immigrants in based on credentials, don't give immigrants jobs they're qualified for), muliticulturalism has not been an problem and policies favouring multiculturalism have proven to work.
On August 11 2012 15:42 zalz wrote: Multiculturalism doesn't work. You need some form of cohession, some larger culture that everyone somehow feels a part of.
If not that, it is simply cultural segregation, something which is already a fact in many places in Europe.
How well people of different groups function relative to other groups is dependent on the social and economic conditions such as ability to find jobs rather than some groups of people just having better belief and value systems that others. Religious and political extremism emerge from tangible problems like not being able to make ends meet while living in a hostile environment. Even in a country like Canada (or any other country with a large immigrant population) where recognition of foreign credentials is an issue (let immigrants in based on credentials, don't give immigrants jobs they're qualified for), muliticulturalism has not been an problem and policies favouring multiculturalism have proven to work.
Canada isn't Europe.
Your position on the world actually influences the kind of refugees you are likely to pick up.
Canada is impossible to reach for economical refugees. Meanwhile, every rich family that doesn't like the political waves in their respective country can book a ticket to Canada or America, depending on their preference.
The economical refugees come for the money, the political refugees come for the culture.
On August 11 2012 15:42 zalz wrote: Multiculturalism doesn't work. You need some form of cohession, some larger culture that everyone somehow feels a part of.
If not that, it is simply cultural segregation, something which is already a fact in many places in Europe.
How well people of different groups function relative to other groups is dependent on the social and economic conditions such as ability to find jobs rather than some groups of people just having better belief and value systems that others. Religious and political extremism emerge from tangible problems like not being able to make ends meet while living in a hostile environment. Even in a country like Canada (or any other country with a large immigrant population) where recognition of foreign credentials is an issue (let immigrants in based on credentials, don't give immigrants jobs they're qualified for), muliticulturalism has not been an problem and policies favouring multiculturalism have proven to work.
Canada isn't Europe.
Your position on the world actually influences the kind of refugees you are likely to pick up.
Canada is impossible to reach for economical refugees. Meanwhile, every rich family that doesn't like the political waves in their respective country can book a ticket to Canada or America, depending on their preference.
The economical refugees come for the money, the political refugees come for the culture.
Virutally all immigrants, illegal immigrants and arguably most refugees comes for the money. Immigrants vastly outnumber the other two groups. It's just that the money is more accessible here because we have a system that creates more opportunities. People don't just go "I hate this country, I'm going to Canada". I've never met an immigrant who did not have national/ethnic/religious pride or identity that they brought from their home country with them, but of course that's just anecdotal evidence. But if you read the links or other studies about the sociology of Canada, you'll find that people here identify both as Canadians and as whatever else they want to identify with. For the most part it's simply the fact that Canada is just less xenophobic and has a higher demand for skilled labour.
On August 11 2012 18:38 Psychobabas wrote: Multiculturalism has failed in Europe. Just visit London, probably the most multicultural capital in Europe.
You expect to see a harmonious cooexistence of cultures but what you get are completely segregated neighborhoods according to race and ethnicity. The Pakistanis are doing their own thing in east London, the Somalis their own, the Indians their own, the Africans their own, the Arabs their own, the Chinese their own etc etc all with little will to integrate to British culture, nevermind tolerating other cultures.
Some can barely speak a word of English.
It's the way UK deals with multiculturalism. The spirit is "We are all the same, every culture has the right to live how he wants".
It's pretty cool. The problem is that it implies communitarianism. People use to stay with people like them, their food, their place to live, even their school, they language.
More and more people considere themself as paskistans, indians, muslims, etc, forgetting that they are in fact British, a country with a long history and it's own way of life. It's own culture in short that must be respected because it's the culture of most of people.
And i think this is the problem. Nobody say that muslims must become anglicans or eat fish and chips of course, but considering their are British citizen, they should be proud of it FIRST and their other culture should be secondary.
The communitarianism in UK is a very bad thing imho, because a child is grown as a [put your cultur here if it's not british] and he sees the british culture as a foreign culture, and not a big part of his own.
In short cummunitarianism is the ennemy of integration, witch is the ennemy of a wealthy multiculturalism.
On global topic : multiculturalism is not bad. It's just awfully done in western countries.
(PS : Sorry for my bad english, i try to improve, but it's far to be good )
I think thats about right. Take a look at this (I actually bumped to this in a finnish comedy/internet humour site)
They do not see themselves as inhabitants of England. They see themselves as muslim extremist, who have rights to denounce and bash everything that doesn't belong to their culture and religious rules. Ridiculous.
In the beginning the reporter says that the protest is because arrest of a swedish local woman whose husband set a bomb in 2010.
Sad video. People who want sharia law should just be shipped to a country that enforces it. end of story.
On August 11 2012 18:38 Psychobabas wrote: Multiculturalism has failed in Europe. Just visit London, probably the most multicultural capital in Europe.
You expect to see a harmonious cooexistence of cultures but what you get are completely segregated neighborhoods according to race and ethnicity. The Pakistanis are doing their own thing in east London, the Somalis their own, the Indians their own, the Africans their own, the Arabs their own, the Chinese their own etc etc all with little will to integrate to British culture, nevermind tolerating other cultures.
Some can barely speak a word of English.
It's the way UK deals with multiculturalism. The spirit is "We are all the same, every culture has the right to live how he wants".
It's pretty cool. The problem is that it implies communitarianism. People use to stay with people like them, their food, their place to live, even their school, they language.
More and more people considere themself as paskistans, indians, muslims, etc, forgetting that they are in fact British, a country with a long history and it's own way of life. It's own culture in short that must be respected because it's the culture of most of people.
And i think this is the problem. Nobody say that muslims must become anglicans or eat fish and chips of course, but considering their are British citizen, they should be proud of it FIRST and their other culture should be secondary.
The communitarianism in UK is a very bad thing imho, because a child is grown as a [put your cultur here if it's not british] and he sees the british culture as a foreign culture, and not a big part of his own.
In short cummunitarianism is the ennemy of integration, witch is the ennemy of a wealthy multiculturalism.
On global topic : multiculturalism is not bad. It's just awfully done in western countries.
(PS : Sorry for my bad english, i try to improve, but it's far to be good )
I think thats about right. Take a look at this (I actually bumped to this in a finnish comedy/internet humour site)
They do not see themselves as inhabitants of England. They see themselves as muslim extremist, who have rights to denounce and bash everything that doesn't belong to their culture and religious rules. Ridiculous.
In the beginning the reporter says that the protest is because arrest of a swedish local woman whose husband set a bomb in 2010.
If you actually watch that video with an unprejudiced perspective (as hard as that might be) you'll hear that the burka-clad woman says "you can choose to wear this, I choose to wear that" despite the fact that the subtitles say "you choose to wear this, I choose to wear that". Even if she did say the latter, that's still a clear indication that, at least ostensibly, there is a respect for individual choice. There's no "we're going to take over this country and impose our belief system on you whether you like it or not because we hold fascist Islamic beliefs." The Muslim demonstrators who despite looking like ninjas and lumberjacks are no more fascistic than the "reporter" in the video. They're simply exercising their freedom of expression/speech by protesting what they believe to be acts of police oppression.
Now before you paint me as a PC strawman who facilitates the destruction of western civilization at the hands of barbaric Muslims, I'm not defending Islamic extremism or even Islam. Personally, I think all religious beliefs are quite stupid or irrational, but to act as if there is some autonomous, malignant cancerous entity such as religion or "culture" (whatever that term even means to you) that causes people to act like total nitwits rather than actually examining the material conditions from which these sociological and psychological phenomena (e.g., groupthink, political extremism) emerge is just lazy thinking and a convenient excuse to be a racist/Islamophobic fearmongerer.
EPT
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