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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender- Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. |
United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:01 FalahNorei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:54 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. I know I shouldn't but I've seen this in a few other places. Gender identity is a societal construction that is in people's brains. Different species of animals are not. Don't compare the two, it's idiotic. what he means is therian ( I think thats the correct term), but thats a religion (or something like that), no personality/bodily disorder
It's basically mythology. I've seen a fair few "I feel like a dog so I'm going to enter a dog breeding pageant" type posts on various articles on this (usually from the same people who are claiming a mass delusion by all trans people) so I figured it was more of that. Either way it's stupid.
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On April 04 2012 00:42 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:38 andrewlt wrote:
What separates gay/lesbian people from transgenders? Is there some test that doctors can do to distinguish them, like something that shows up clearly in an MRI? I've seen some feminine gays and masculine lesbians. Is there a threshold that must be reached or is it some arbitrary thing that society decides? That's a fundamental misunderstand between someone's sexual orientation and their gender identity. It is impossible for a woman to be a gay man for instance. Though yes. there are brain differences that can be identified as per the sources I cited earlier in this thread. Edit: Oh cool I've been added to the OP. 
Thank you for writing that, it was very insightful.
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On April 03 2012 18:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:42 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 03 2012 18:38 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:
[quote]
Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post.
She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely. Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists. Actually, Freud was entirely unscientific, freudulent*, and most of his sexual theories have been shown to be bullshit. He contributed a huge amount and should be respected in that, but he is by no means "continually being proven right". FTFY Seriously though, there are a lot of things that differ between a natural m/f and a trans one. Yes you can keep appearances up, but.. I can accept LGB, because those people don't have to commit to a permanent stance. It's different for T. I feel like we shouldn't be encouraging people to do radical things like completely change their gender. If perhaps there's some issue with society that makes people feel like they have to change gender, we should be attempting to make ourselves better by allowing for that. LGB are sexual preferences which are completely unrelated to gender issues. This isn't a preference, perversion or a fetish. Nor are they changing their gender, that's pretty much the point of it, they're not changing their gender, they're realigning their sex to conform with their gender. You've pretty much missed the point on every possible level.
You're the one missing the point, they shouldn't have to change gender to be themselves.
On April 04 2012 01:11 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 01:01 FalahNorei wrote:On April 04 2012 00:54 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. I know I shouldn't but I've seen this in a few other places. Gender identity is a societal construction that is in people's brains. Different species of animals are not. Don't compare the two, it's idiotic. what he means is therian ( I think thats the correct term), but thats a religion (or something like that), no personality/bodily disorder It's basically mythology. I've seen a fair few "I feel like a dog so I'm going to enter a dog breeding pageant" type posts on various articles on this (usually from the same people who are claiming a mass delusion by all trans people) so I figured it was more of that. Either way it's stupid.
It's exactly the same thing. Or it would be, if science and medicine was researched enough to make you look like said tiger.
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On April 04 2012 01:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:52 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:42 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 03 2012 18:38 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:
[quote]He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him.
No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely. Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists. Actually, Freud was entirely unscientific, freudulent*, and most of his sexual theories have been shown to be bullshit. He contributed a huge amount and should be respected in that, but he is by no means "continually being proven right". FTFY Seriously though, there are a lot of things that differ between a natural m/f and a trans one. Yes you can keep appearances up, but.. I can accept LGB, because those people don't have to commit to a permanent stance. It's different for T. I feel like we shouldn't be encouraging people to do radical things like completely change their gender. If perhaps there's some issue with society that makes people feel like they have to change gender, we should be attempting to make ourselves better by allowing for that. LGB are sexual preferences which are completely unrelated to gender issues. This isn't a preference, perversion or a fetish. Nor are they changing their gender, that's pretty much the point of it, they're not changing their gender, they're realigning their sex to conform with their gender. You've pretty much missed the point on every possible level. You're the one missing the point, they shouldn't have to change gender to be themselves.
I'm sorry, if you identify as a woman but nature (for whatever reason) gave you a male body, how exactly could you be yourself without changing?
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On April 04 2012 00:54 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. I know I shouldn't but I've seen this in a few other places. Gender identity is a societal construction that is in people's brains. Different species of animals are not. Don't compare the two, it's idiotic.
If gender is a societal construction and therefore should be fluid, why do you insist we describe people by gender? Sex is not a societal construction, any more than species, and is not restricted to people's brains. Sex is what the vast majority of people refer to when they describe a person as 'male' or 'female.'
On April 04 2012 00:53 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:51 Severedevil wrote:On April 03 2012 23:29 danl9rm wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. ahhhhhhahahaha. No one with kids, both boy and girl, would ever agree with that statement. There is no way. Children are trained from birth to obey gender norms. They're even color-coded so you don't accidentally treat a female baby like a boy or vice-versa. On April 03 2012 23:53 imallinson wrote:On April 03 2012 23:52 Vorgrim wrote:A penis is a birth defect? underwent sexual reassignment surgery at 19. If you think you are female then it effectively is. Functional, healthy body parts do not become a defect simply because you prefer something else. If there genuinely is a birth defect in transgender or transsexual people, it is not their fully-functional genitals. I think you're missing the part where this is more than preference.
Clearly, people whose brain clashes with other parts of their body have a problem, but if the entire body is healthy and functional except for the brain, then the problem can't the body. The problem must lie either with the brain itself, or with the connections between the brain and the parts it doesn't mesh with.
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United States41979 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:52 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:42 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 03 2012 18:38 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:
[quote]He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him.
No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely. Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists. Actually, Freud was entirely unscientific, freudulent*, and most of his sexual theories have been shown to be bullshit. He contributed a huge amount and should be respected in that, but he is by no means "continually being proven right". FTFY Seriously though, there are a lot of things that differ between a natural m/f and a trans one. Yes you can keep appearances up, but.. I can accept LGB, because those people don't have to commit to a permanent stance. It's different for T. I feel like we shouldn't be encouraging people to do radical things like completely change their gender. If perhaps there's some issue with society that makes people feel like they have to change gender, we should be attempting to make ourselves better by allowing for that. LGB are sexual preferences which are completely unrelated to gender issues. This isn't a preference, perversion or a fetish. Nor are they changing their gender, that's pretty much the point of it, they're not changing their gender, they're realigning their sex to conform with their gender. You've pretty much missed the point on every possible level. You're the one missing the point, they shouldn't have to change gender to be themselves.
Nope, still missing the point. A transgender woman is born with a female gender identity and a male sexual identity. At no point does she change her gender, she corrects her sexual identity. It's misconceptions about the meaning of these terms that cause so many problems regarding these issues.
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On April 04 2012 01:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:52 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:42 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 03 2012 18:38 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:
[quote]He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him.
No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely. Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists. Actually, Freud was entirely unscientific, freudulent*, and most of his sexual theories have been shown to be bullshit. He contributed a huge amount and should be respected in that, but he is by no means "continually being proven right". FTFY Seriously though, there are a lot of things that differ between a natural m/f and a trans one. Yes you can keep appearances up, but.. I can accept LGB, because those people don't have to commit to a permanent stance. It's different for T. I feel like we shouldn't be encouraging people to do radical things like completely change their gender. If perhaps there's some issue with society that makes people feel like they have to change gender, we should be attempting to make ourselves better by allowing for that. LGB are sexual preferences which are completely unrelated to gender issues. This isn't a preference, perversion or a fetish. Nor are they changing their gender, that's pretty much the point of it, they're not changing their gender, they're realigning their sex to conform with their gender. You've pretty much missed the point on every possible level. You're the one missing the point, they shouldn't have to change gender to be themselves. Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 01:11 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 01:01 FalahNorei wrote:On April 04 2012 00:54 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. I know I shouldn't but I've seen this in a few other places. Gender identity is a societal construction that is in people's brains. Different species of animals are not. Don't compare the two, it's idiotic. what he means is therian ( I think thats the correct term), but thats a religion (or something like that), no personality/bodily disorder It's basically mythology. I've seen a fair few "I feel like a dog so I'm going to enter a dog breeding pageant" type posts on various articles on this (usually from the same people who are claiming a mass delusion by all trans people) so I figured it was more of that. Either way it's stupid. It's exactly the same thing. Or it would be, if science and medicine was researched enough to make you look like said tiger.
in german, the transition-operations were called translated "sex-change". now, the correct term is "sex-adaption", or something like that. the sex isn't CHANGED, its just adjusted to the gender. to make the body fit the mind.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 01:11 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 01:01 FalahNorei wrote:On April 04 2012 00:54 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. I know I shouldn't but I've seen this in a few other places. Gender identity is a societal construction that is in people's brains. Different species of animals are not. Don't compare the two, it's idiotic. what he means is therian ( I think thats the correct term), but thats a religion (or something like that), no personality/bodily disorder It's basically mythology. I've seen a fair few "I feel like a dog so I'm going to enter a dog breeding pageant" type posts on various articles on this (usually from the same people who are claiming a mass delusion by all trans people) so I figured it was more of that. Either way it's stupid. It's exactly the same thing. Or it would be, if science and medicine was researched enough to make you look like said tiger.
No it isn't. Species is a genetic thing and as has been said in this thread many times over gender is not.
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On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro.
This comparison is highly offensive and stupid. If she woke up one day and randomly decided to call herself a woman just to mess with the world, then okay, but to question her gender identity as if it's just a fancy of hers shows you have no understanding of the matter.
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Are you trans or close with someone who is, Kwark? You seem to take things awfully personally.
Anyway I think this thread has lost new topics of discussion, so here's one I'm genuinely curious about: Can post-op MtF trans experience any significant sexual pleasure? Also, any advances in being able to give FtM trans working penises? I understand it's impossible with today's science, but who knows in the future what could be possible.
I know I was born a horse and I demand genitalia to match.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm kidding, relax, I know it's not the same thing, it's a joke.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:17 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:54 imallinson wrote:On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. I know I shouldn't but I've seen this in a few other places. Gender identity is a societal construction that is in people's brains. Different species of animals are not. Don't compare the two, it's idiotic. If gender is a societal construction and therefore should be fluid, why do you insist we describe people by gender? Sex is not a societal construction, any more than species, and is not restricted to people's brains. Sex is what the vast majority of people refer to when they describe a person as 'male' or 'female.'
I'm not insisting that we do describe people by gender, in fact I'd love it if we didn't but that doesn't change that society does put a lot of stock in someone's gender. Again sex and gender are different things. Sex isn't a societal construction gender is. People using sex as the same thing as gender is what causes problems like this.
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this is one of the instances where i don't care either way. you can say the rules are rules and tough luck for said girl/guy. but pageants are pretty stupid to begin with, and i support anything that shows that, its a beauty contest, and a beautiful person isn't aloud to compete. either way. i'd definitely have sex with said guy/girl however way said guy/girl is capable. she/hes smokin, we'd make it work
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On April 04 2012 01:21 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:48 Vorgrim wrote:
If I say I'm a tiger, then I'm a tiger and the world should treat me as one. Don't poach me, bro. This comparison is highly offensive and stupid. If she woke up one day and randomly decided to call herself a woman just to mess with the world, then okay, but to question her gender identity as if it's just a fancy of hers shows you have no understanding of the matter.
This.. I'm guessing he was just doing a bad attempt at trolling or he might actually be quite stupid / hasn't really gotten into the discussion or read any of the more serious posts (if you haven't read the topic why post?).
this is one of the instances where i don't care either way. you can say the rules are rules and tough luck for said girl/guy. but pageants are pretty stupid to begin with, and i support anything that shows that, its a beauty contest, and a beautiful person isn't aloud to compete. either way. i'd definitely have sex with said guy/girl however way said guy/girl is capable. she/hes smokin, we'd make it work
I'm sorry but this isn't bringing the discussion further, saying that a beauty contest is stupid and that you'd do anything which proves said statement doesn't really belong in this topic I'm afraid. It doesn't really matter if you'd have sex with the person or "make it work", that's not what this is about.
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I'm always so creeped out by these kinds of news. In theory it's totally sense-making though, and should be allowed.
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United States41979 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:23 Hinanawi wrote:
Are you trans or close with someone who is, Kwark?
Nope, but the ignorance in these topics has been massively offensive in the past and I'd like tl to be somewhere where people feel comfortable discussing these issues.
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On April 04 2012 00:42 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:38 andrewlt wrote:
What separates gay/lesbian people from transgenders? Is there some test that doctors can do to distinguish them, like something that shows up clearly in an MRI? I've seen some feminine gays and masculine lesbians. Is there a threshold that must be reached or is it some arbitrary thing that society decides? It's not a behavior thing it's an identity thing. Gay men still identify as men. A transgender woman has a male body but identifies as a woman. Science and medicine have progressed to the point where we can solve that though. Honestly once you really start to study all of the different ways people can identify themselves it gets very complicated and confusing. I think the best approach is just to say be what makes you happy and as long as you aren't hurting anyone else you're cool. If she says she's a woman, then she's a woman and the world should treat her as one.
A few people replied but I think I understood yours the best. I'm not very good at reading technical medical journals.
I was wondering if there's a medical way of differentiating between a, for example, gay man who acts feminine and has feminine interests versus a true FTM transgender (that's the female gender inside male body, right?). Apparently, brain scans do show the differences in one part of the brain.
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That's a fundamental misunderstand between someone's sexual orientation and their gender identity. It is impossible for a woman to be a gay man for instance. Though yes. there are brain differences that can be identified as per the sources I cited earlier in this thread.
Is it possible for a person to be born as a man and genuinely possess the gender identity of a lesbian women? Seems like quite the deliemna to me xD
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:29 Half wrote:Show nested quote +That's a fundamental misunderstand between someone's sexual orientation and their gender identity. It is impossible for a woman to be a gay man for instance. Though yes. there are brain differences that can be identified as per the sources I cited earlier in this thread.
Is it possible for a person to be born as a man and genuinely possess the gender identity of a lesbian women? Seems like quite the deliemna to me xD
Yes, definitely. Gender identity and sexuality are two independent things.
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I'm not sure I really understand transgender people. I am all for letting people be who the feel like they are, and therefore have no qualms about the trans community in general, but in this thread I see some people being banned or warned for saying he or him. I dont agree with banning people who choose to refer to the people by the original gender the trans person was.
I mean first you have to define what a woman or a man is, and I see people here saying that it is based on who they feel they are mentally, or what their body looks like now, and not what they were born. But if we take it from the most basic difference between what makes a man or a woman, then the definition is unchangable throughout life.
I'm talking about the 23rd chromosome, the XX or XY chromosomes. This is impossible to change throughout your life. It is what forms your body into the gender it is, secretes the sex specific hormones and defines the gender of your birth.
I'm aware of accidental mutations in the 23rd chromosome such as the triplet instead of the pair which can give XXX or XXY but those too are defined.
I am just wondering what anyone would think about defining based on genetic code and not what one thinks, as then you have a strict definition of man or woman, no grey area.
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On April 04 2012 01:29 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:42 Klondikebar wrote:On April 04 2012 00:38 andrewlt wrote:
What separates gay/lesbian people from transgenders? Is there some test that doctors can do to distinguish them, like something that shows up clearly in an MRI? I've seen some feminine gays and masculine lesbians. Is there a threshold that must be reached or is it some arbitrary thing that society decides? It's not a behavior thing it's an identity thing. Gay men still identify as men. A transgender woman has a male body but identifies as a woman. Science and medicine have progressed to the point where we can solve that though. Honestly once you really start to study all of the different ways people can identify themselves it gets very complicated and confusing. I think the best approach is just to say be what makes you happy and as long as you aren't hurting anyone else you're cool. If she says she's a woman, then she's a woman and the world should treat her as one. A few people replied but I think I understood yours the best. I'm not very good at reading technical medical journals. I was wondering if there's a medical way of differentiating between a, for example, gay man who acts feminine and has feminine interests versus an FTM transgender (that's the female gender inside male body, right?). Apparently, brain scans do show the differences in one part of the brain.
I'm not sure, but I don't think there's a medical way.... only psychological, I think. mostly its if the person wants to be a woman or not. some gays even find woman disgusting, so why be one yourself? (not all, of course!)
also, its mtf. male-to-female (hinting at the body alteration). ftm is the other way round, female body with male gender.
On April 04 2012 01:29 Half wrote:Show nested quote +That's a fundamental misunderstand between someone's sexual orientation and their gender identity. It is impossible for a woman to be a gay man for instance. Though yes. there are brain differences that can be identified as per the sources I cited earlier in this thread.
Is it possible for a person to be born as a man and genuinely possess the gender identity of a lesbian women? Seems like quite the deliemna to me xD
yes, it is possible, and yes, its alot of a dilemma. its even worse the other way round (ftm+gay). it all wouldn't be if society and people would be more open minded, and people would speak more open about such things without feeling akward :/
On April 04 2012 01:34 Rationaleyes wrote:
I'm not sure I really understand transgender people. I am all for letting people be who the feel like they are, and therefore have no qualms about the trans community in general, but in this thread I see some people being banned or warned for saying he or him. I dont agree with banning people who choose to refer to the people by the original gender the trans person was.
I mean first you have to define what a woman or a man is, and I see people here saying that it is based on who they feel they are mentally, or what their body looks like now, and not what they were born. But if we take it from the most basic difference between what makes a man or a woman, then the definition is unchangable throughout life.
I'm talking about the 23rd chromosome, the XX or XY chromosomes. This is impossible to change throughout your life. It is what forms your body into the gender it is, secretes the sex specific hormones and defines the gender of your birth.
I'm aware of accidental mutations in the 23rd chromosome such as the triplet instead of the pair which can give XXX or XXY but those too are defined.
I am just wondering what anyone would think about defining based on genetic code and not what one thinks, as then you have a strict definition of man or woman, no grey area.
for that, I answered before, there ARE both xy-women and xx-men (naturally born, that is). therefor, those rules don't apply. I'm leaning more towards the direktion that there's no black/white (aka male female) but only gray area. not too sure though, alot of things to be thought about there, still at the beginning of that hypothesis.
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