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Well, he might be legaly found not guilty but even slavery and other stuff was legal at some point in history, so the legal system is not in any kind a measurement of moral responsibility or ethical behaviour.
This man was defintly pursuing/stalking Trayvon for no logical reason witch is obviously an offense to everybody, I mean who likes beeing pursued ?
The way Trayvon reacted to this was of course flawed, but what is the reason for a fire ? The lit match ? Or is it the gasoline on the ground or both ?
I have to say that I have no experience on what it means to be black and living in the united states for obvious reasons. But I think it is a perspective different then the one a white citizen will get in most of the cases.
It can make you react differently to similar situations.
I think that there are no winners but only victims here, and I do not encourage the boasting over an alleged victory of justice over the "social crusaders".
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On December 04 2012 20:29 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:19 GrapeApe wrote:
So, I haven't been keeping up but has this case shifted directions from the "omg hang Zimmerman" to "okay, this might have been self defense/not so cut and dry after all?" It was very obvious from the start that Zimmerman was innocent. The narrative of some blood crazed neighborhood watchman out to murder innocent upstanding black children with great futures ahead of them for no reason other than his purely evil racist nature simply didn't make sense. Narratives like that only make sense in the deluded mind of left wing liberals who have been indoctrinated from birth to have a strong faith based belief in Black victimhood. There was, from the day after the shooting, a witness saying he saw Zimmerman being pummeled as he screamed for help. Just like that didn't sway the social justice crusaders, this new image will not either. They are extremely deluded and vicious people who are motivated by hatred and emotion, rather than logic and the available facts of the case. Funny how there is nary a peep out of them when Blacks kill other Blacks. They only pretend to care about Black deaths when it can be shoehorned into their fantasy world of Blacks being poor oppressed victims at the hands of evil White devils. http://i.imgur.com/tIVG8.jpg
Wait you so mock the narrative that Trayvon was innocent and that Zimmerman was a violent racist and then go on to build a narrative where Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman for no reason at all?
Rather deluded if you ask me, not to mention you're completely straw-manning anyone who doesn't think that Zimmerman is innocent. There's several problems with your simple analysis, how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example? It would seem as though Zimmerman was following him (police calls etc.). It seems altogether more likely that Trayvon was being followed and felt threatened. We don't really know what happened when they came into contact but I can only imagine neither side was acting responsibly. We do not know who threw the first punch or how the violence started, we do know however that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon is now dead - shot by the gun of Zimmerman.
Also that picture is terribly racist and you should be ashamed.
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On December 04 2012 20:44 Holy_AT wrote:
Well, he might be legaly found not guilty but even slavery and other stuff was legal at some point in history, so the legal system is not in any kind a measurement of moral responsibility or ethical behaviour.
This man was defintly pursuing/stalking Trayvon for no logical reason witch is obviously an offense to everybody, I mean who likes beeing pursued ?
The way Trayvon reacted to this was of course flawed, but what is the reason for a fire ? The lit match ? Or is it the gasoline on the ground or both ?
I have to say that I have no experience on what it means to be black and living in the united states for obvious reasons. But I think it is a perspective different then the one a white citizen will get in most of the cases.
It can make you react differently to similar situations.
I think that there are no winners but only victims here, and I do not encourage the boasting over an alleged victory of justice over the "social crusaders".
I don't agree with the bold part. His explanation is quite logical (if it's true), regardless if it was the right or wrong thing to do.
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On December 04 2012 20:44 Holy_AT wrote:
Well, he might be legaly found not guilty but even slavery and other stuff was legal at some point in history, so the legal system is not in any kind a measurement of moral responsibility or ethical behaviour.
Did you just equate allowing people to defend themselves with allowing people to own slaves?
On December 04 2012 20:44 Holy_AT wrote:
This man was defintly pursuing/stalking Trayvon for no logical reason witch is obviously an offense to everybody, I mean who likes beeing pursued ?
There had been robberies recently in the neighborhood, Travon looked suspicious, and police would not be able to arrive before he left the area. Keeping an eye on him was perfectly logical, and admirable. If all neighbors were as good as that our homes would all be a lot safer.
Whether Trayvon "liked" it or not is immaterial. Someone doing something you don't like is not justification to pin them to the ground and pummel them in the head as they scream for help.
On December 04 2012 20:44 Holy_AT wrote:
The way Trayvon reacted to this was of course flawed, but what is the reason for a fire ? The lit match ? Or is it the gasoline on the ground or both ?
I have to say that I have no experience on what it means to be black and living in the united states for obvious reasons. But I think it is a perspective different then the one a white citizen will get in most of the cases.
It can make you react differently to similar situations.
I think that there are no winners but only victims here, and I do not encourage the boasting over an alleged victory of justice over the "social crusaders".
You should evaluate your own subconscious racism. You seem to be suggesting Trayvon suffered from diminished responsibility, like a mental retard.
Trayvon was fully responsible for his own actions. If he had gone home instead of lurking and attacking Zimmerman, he would never have been in a position to get shot.
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On December 04 2012 20:29 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:19 GrapeApe wrote:
So, I haven't been keeping up but has this case shifted directions from the "omg hang Zimmerman" to "okay, this might have been self defense/not so cut and dry after all?" It was very obvious from the start that Zimmerman was innocent. The narrative of some blood crazed neighborhood watchman out to murder innocent upstanding black children with great futures ahead of them for no reason other than his purely evil racist nature simply didn't make sense. Narratives like that only make sense in the deluded mind of left wing liberals who have been indoctrinated from birth to have a strong faith based belief in Black victimhood. There was, from the day after the shooting, a witness saying he saw Zimmerman being pummeled as he screamed for help. Just like that didn't sway the social justice crusaders, this new image will not either. They are extremely deluded and vicious people who are motivated by hatred and emotion, rather than logic and the available facts of the case. Funny how there is nary a peep out of them when Blacks kill other Blacks. They only pretend to care about Black deaths when it can be shoehorned into their fantasy world of Blacks being poor oppressed victims at the hands of evil White devils. http://i.imgur.com/tIVG8.jpg
You jump to just as many conclusions if not more, when you begin by saying that zimmerman is "innocent". What do you KNOW, except that trevon martin got shot after being followed by zimmerman? He died... Your OBVIOUSLY racist viewpoint also doesn't help you to convince anyone that you are right, unless they are also racists and already have their minds made up.
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On December 04 2012 08:50 dAPhREAk wrote:wow, you are fast. I was just about to post it. ![[image loading]](http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/e5atjiWTNf8.3KCIw0xiBQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0xMDI0O3E9Nzk7dz03NjU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-12-03T203324Z_1211378952_TM3E8C315PO01_RTRMADP_3_USA-FLORIDA-SHOOTING.JPG)
Okay, I don't know all that much about the US legal system and who is allowed to publish what when there's a murder investigation, but it does seem really weird to me that the police would sit on this photo for months on end while the media and public openly discussed whether Zimmerman was attacked or not. Couldn't they at least just have said "Yes, he was attacked" and end the whole discussion/drama right there?
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On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:29 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 10:19 GrapeApe wrote:
So, I haven't been keeping up but has this case shifted directions from the "omg hang Zimmerman" to "okay, this might have been self defense/not so cut and dry after all?" It was very obvious from the start that Zimmerman was innocent. The narrative of some blood crazed neighborhood watchman out to murder innocent upstanding black children with great futures ahead of them for no reason other than his purely evil racist nature simply didn't make sense. Narratives like that only make sense in the deluded mind of left wing liberals who have been indoctrinated from birth to have a strong faith based belief in Black victimhood. There was, from the day after the shooting, a witness saying he saw Zimmerman being pummeled as he screamed for help. Just like that didn't sway the social justice crusaders, this new image will not either. They are extremely deluded and vicious people who are motivated by hatred and emotion, rather than logic and the available facts of the case. Funny how there is nary a peep out of them when Blacks kill other Blacks. They only pretend to care about Black deaths when it can be shoehorned into their fantasy world of Blacks being poor oppressed victims at the hands of evil White devils. http://i.imgur.com/tIVG8.jpg Wait you so mock the narrative that Trayvon was innocent and that Zimmerman was a violent racist and then go on to build a narrative where Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman for no reason at all? Rather deluded if you ask me, not to mention you're completely straw-manning anyone who doesn't think that Zimmerman is innocent. There's several problems with your simple analysis, how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example? It would seem as though Zimmerman was following him (police calls etc.). It seems altogether more likely that Trayvon was being followed and felt threatened. We don't really know what happened when they came into contact but I can only imagine neither side was acting responsibly. We do not know who threw the first punch or how the violence started, we do know however that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon is now dead - shot by the gun of Zimmerman. Also that picture is terribly racist and you should be ashamed.
Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman because he was upset at being reported to police.
It's very common behaviour among African Americans. Dave Chapelle even did a segment on this mentality called "When Keepin' It Real Goes Wrong".
On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:
how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example
Good question, but you aren't going to like the answer.
Zimmerman stopped to talk to police for two minutes after he lost sight of Trayvon and stopped pursuing. Trayvon had two whole minutes to put distance between them. In fact, his home was only a few dozen yards away. Trayvon could easily have gone home in this time.
The only possible explanation is that Trayvon was waiting for Zimmerman. After Zimmerman got off the phone and was heading back to his car Trayvon attacked.
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On December 04 2012 08:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:
LOOOL what a picture. I wish I could go back and e-slap about a hundred people in this thread with it.
It isn't like this was a hard case to figure out. The entire thing didn't make any sense. Crazed white racist kills small child snacking on Skittles because.... uh... racist? Oh, and the police are super racists too and they know he murdered this poor boy but they are covering it up because they are racist. How do I know this? Well, there hype on the left wing media so it must be true. It conforms to my world view, theres double confirmation!
I remember way back when my position was you needed evidence for all of these silly claims and I took to pointing out all of the bias, especially for the kinds of wild assumptions people made.
There was one time when the grainy, low resolution videos came out from the police station and everyone used those as "proof" Zimmerman wasn't hurt at all, despite the fact the police looked at the back of his head, the video was very low quality, and you could see a dark gash on the back of his head. On Reddit I had to deal with a, "Video expert" who "works with videos like this" managed to "confirm" that this gash was not actually a cut on the back of his head but rather a "compression artifact" and it was just coincidental that it appeared right where the police were inspecting and Zimmerman had claimed injury.
Edit: based on a map of the events, showing Trayvon was shot not very far from Zimmerman's car, if I had to guess, Trayvon went back to confront Zimmerman. If Trayvon was trying to get away, why did he fail to put any distance between himself and Zimmerman for 2 + minutes, partly while Zimmerman was still on the phone with police? The home he was staying at was very close, but instead of going there he lingered around in the dark or backtracked in order to get to the place where he died. Worth pointing out Trayvon's girlfriend's testimony is that Trayvon was the first person to speak. She said that Trayvon said, "Why are you following me" or something like that, and only then did Zimmerman speak to him. Speculation on my part, for what it is worth. At least I can admit it is speculation and not take it very seriously.
Nobody will learn how to stop making claims before they have evidence. I hold absolutely no hope for this; the hype is over, there is no teachable moment. If there was a teachable moment most people cannot be taught.
Now I just hope Zimmerman can get something like a normal life somewhere when this is all over.
Oh, and the prosecution should all be put in jail for breaking the law and shamed for participating in a political prosecution, withholding evidence, releasing manipulated evidence like black and white photos when color was available, etc.
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The only possible explanation is that Trayvon was waiting for Zimmerman. After Zimmerman got off the phone and was heading back to his car Trayvon attacked.
I know nothing of this case and havent followed this thread, but logic alone tells me that couldn't have been the only possible outcome.
-He could have dropped his wallet and went back for it, interchange cell phone etc
You can't deal with absolutes in something that isn't known.
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On December 04 2012 21:17 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:On December 04 2012 20:29 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 10:19 GrapeApe wrote:
So, I haven't been keeping up but has this case shifted directions from the "omg hang Zimmerman" to "okay, this might have been self defense/not so cut and dry after all?" It was very obvious from the start that Zimmerman was innocent. The narrative of some blood crazed neighborhood watchman out to murder innocent upstanding black children with great futures ahead of them for no reason other than his purely evil racist nature simply didn't make sense. Narratives like that only make sense in the deluded mind of left wing liberals who have been indoctrinated from birth to have a strong faith based belief in Black victimhood. There was, from the day after the shooting, a witness saying he saw Zimmerman being pummeled as he screamed for help. Just like that didn't sway the social justice crusaders, this new image will not either. They are extremely deluded and vicious people who are motivated by hatred and emotion, rather than logic and the available facts of the case. Funny how there is nary a peep out of them when Blacks kill other Blacks. They only pretend to care about Black deaths when it can be shoehorned into their fantasy world of Blacks being poor oppressed victims at the hands of evil White devils. http://i.imgur.com/tIVG8.jpg Wait you so mock the narrative that Trayvon was innocent and that Zimmerman was a violent racist and then go on to build a narrative where Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman for no reason at all? Rather deluded if you ask me, not to mention you're completely straw-manning anyone who doesn't think that Zimmerman is innocent. There's several problems with your simple analysis, how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example? It would seem as though Zimmerman was following him (police calls etc.). It seems altogether more likely that Trayvon was being followed and felt threatened. We don't really know what happened when they came into contact but I can only imagine neither side was acting responsibly. We do not know who threw the first punch or how the violence started, we do know however that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon is now dead - shot by the gun of Zimmerman. Also that picture is terribly racist and you should be ashamed. Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman because he was upset at being reported to police. It's very common behaviour among African Americans. Dave Chapelle even did a segment on this mentality called "When Keepin' It Real Goes Wrong". Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:
how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example Good question, but you aren't going to like the answer. Zimmerman stopped to talk to police for two minutes after he lost sight of Trayvon and stopped pursuing. Trayvon had two whole minutes to put distance between them. In fact, his home was only a few dozen yards away. Trayvon could easily have gone home in this time. The only possible explanation is that Trayvon was waiting for Zimmerman. After Zimmerman got off the phone and was heading back to his car Trayvon attacked.
And the racism becomes increasingly obvious "it's very common behaviour among african americans".
It's amazing how much you know about exactly what happened without possibly having been there isn't it? However I have looked at the map and plotting his assumed course it is unrealistic to paint it as though his house was "only a few dozen yards away". Not to mention none of your assumptions explains why Zimmerman followed him after he lost him (assuming he even lost him for as long as you assert). It fails to explain anything in fact because you're just talking shit.
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On December 04 2012 21:17 stevelouise wrote:
It's very common behaviour among African Americans.
Is this true? Can anyone confirm?
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On December 04 2012 21:59 forestry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:17 stevelouise wrote:
It's very common behaviour among African Americans. Is this true? Can anyone confirm?
I can confirm that it is a very common behaviour among humans to be upset when someone calls the police on them simply because of the color of their skin, when they are just walking down the street in their own neighbourhood. I'm not African American but I know how I would feel.
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I don't understand why this has to be focused around the racial profiles of the people involved. People should focus on the very real problems that are factually present, such as doctoring / falsifying evidence, firing of employee and policemen, the fact that a case needs state wide media attention to even be taken to court. You don't need a tacit conspiracy theory, it detracts from the very real problems that the case high lights.
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On December 04 2012 22:24 Caihead wrote:
I don't understand why this has to be focused around the racial profiles of the people involved. People should focus on the very real problems that are factually present, such as doctoring / falsifying evidence, firing of employee and policemen, the fact that a case needs state wide media attention to even be taken to court. You don't need a tacit conspiracy theory, it detracts from the very real problems that the case high lights.
It's because race plays a major role in the case. The whole reason that it got so much coverage was because people thought the police weren't taking it seriously due to racism.
What concerns me most though is how apparent it has become with this case that the media will actively attempt to get people to feel a certain way about a case. I think a lot of people have been aware of it for years but it was just blatant with this case. From the editing of the 911 call to depicting George Zimmerman as a much larger man, only using a picture of him with lighting that made him appear very white, and only using pictures of Trayvon that made him look like a small innocent child.
Regardless of the outcome of the case I'm pretty disgusted by the news media on this one.
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On December 04 2012 21:17 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:On December 04 2012 20:29 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 10:19 GrapeApe wrote:
So, I haven't been keeping up but has this case shifted directions from the "omg hang Zimmerman" to "okay, this might have been self defense/not so cut and dry after all?" It was very obvious from the start that Zimmerman was innocent. The narrative of some blood crazed neighborhood watchman out to murder innocent upstanding black children with great futures ahead of them for no reason other than his purely evil racist nature simply didn't make sense. Narratives like that only make sense in the deluded mind of left wing liberals who have been indoctrinated from birth to have a strong faith based belief in Black victimhood. There was, from the day after the shooting, a witness saying he saw Zimmerman being pummeled as he screamed for help. Just like that didn't sway the social justice crusaders, this new image will not either. They are extremely deluded and vicious people who are motivated by hatred and emotion, rather than logic and the available facts of the case. Funny how there is nary a peep out of them when Blacks kill other Blacks. They only pretend to care about Black deaths when it can be shoehorned into their fantasy world of Blacks being poor oppressed victims at the hands of evil White devils. http://i.imgur.com/tIVG8.jpg Wait you so mock the narrative that Trayvon was innocent and that Zimmerman was a violent racist and then go on to build a narrative where Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman for no reason at all? Rather deluded if you ask me, not to mention you're completely straw-manning anyone who doesn't think that Zimmerman is innocent. There's several problems with your simple analysis, how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example? It would seem as though Zimmerman was following him (police calls etc.). It seems altogether more likely that Trayvon was being followed and felt threatened. We don't really know what happened when they came into contact but I can only imagine neither side was acting responsibly. We do not know who threw the first punch or how the violence started, we do know however that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon is now dead - shot by the gun of Zimmerman. Also that picture is terribly racist and you should be ashamed. Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman because he was upset at being reported to police.
It's very common behaviour among African Americans. Dave Chapelle even did a segment on this mentality called "When Keepin' It Real Goes Wrong".
Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:
how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example Good question, but you aren't going to like the answer. Zimmerman stopped to talk to police for two minutes after he lost sight of Trayvon and stopped pursuing. Trayvon had two whole minutes to put distance between them. In fact, his home was only a few dozen yards away. Trayvon could easily have gone home in this time. The only possible explanation is that Trayvon was waiting for Zimmerman. After Zimmerman got off the phone and was heading back to his car Trayvon attacked.
Glad to see that you are generalizing African Americans based upon a ridiculous skit by a comedian. Are you seriously this dense, do you believe the bs that you just typed? Whats your evidence for this behavior? How many African Americans do you even know? Probably not a many seeing as you're Canadian. Even if you knew 3000 personally you can't make blind generalizations such as this. You're either a troll or obviously racially biased.
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On December 04 2012 22:24 Caihead wrote:
I don't understand why this has to be focused around the racial profiles of the people involved. People should focus on the very real problems that are factually present, such as doctoring / falsifying evidence, firing of employee and policemen, the fact that a case needs state wide media attention to even be taken to court. You don't need a tacit conspiracy theory, it detracts from the very real problems that the case high lights.
This doesn't make any sense. What doctoring/ falsifying evidence? police chiefs will and have always had their jobs connected to local politics and the guy will be fine getting a job anywhere else. The case never needed to be taken to court with the obvious evidence that there was no crime to charge zimmerman with. People need to stop grasping onto every bandwagon that comes around about white being people racist all the time.
Hes not being raceist or anything. If you would just look at the 2 people involved you would know that trayvon could just run away from zimmerman without any problem. he could have just quickly walked away without much problem. He could have simply said he lived in the area or had a friend in the area and have no problem. Its obviously that trayvon wanted to make a problem out of it.
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Picture proves nothing except that there was a fight. We have no idea who started it.
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Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this...
The solid facts that I got from reading the report are:
1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape
2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches
3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries.
The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence.
Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie
- Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
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On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped.
Edit- Yep, didn't take them long:
http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/
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EPT
