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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
Prosecution has already messed up so many times and even if they hadn't it would still be impossible to prove Zimmerman started the fight beyond a reasonable doubt.
All the evidence supports Zimmerman's story except that there is no evidence as to who actually started the fight other than his word. So you either believe him or you don't. But there isn't enough here to get a fair jury to convict and there never was, just a media-racist freakout with all the high notes of liberal guilt dogma being hit. Guns, race, it was like it was tailor-made to send liberals into a frenzy of knee-jerk screams of racism and apoplexy over firearms.
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On December 04 2012 22:33 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 22:24 Caihead wrote:
I don't understand why this has to be focused around the racial profiles of the people involved. People should focus on the very real problems that are factually present, such as doctoring / falsifying evidence, firing of employee and policemen, the fact that a case needs state wide media attention to even be taken to court. You don't need a tacit conspiracy theory, it detracts from the very real problems that the case high lights. It's because race plays a major role in the case. The whole reason that it got so much coverage was because people thought the police weren't taking it seriously due to racism. What concerns me most though is how apparent it has become with this case that the media will actively attempt to get people to feel a certain way about a case. I think a lot of people have been aware of it for years but it was just blatant with this case. From the editing of the 911 call to depicting George Zimmerman as a much larger man, only using a picture of him with lighting that made him appear very white, and only using pictures of Trayvon that made him look like a small innocent child. Regardless of the outcome of the case I'm pretty disgusted by the news media on this one.
dont forget that the media actually called him white. it went beyond just using a picture that made him look white.
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On December 04 2012 22:34 Nothingtosay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:17 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:On December 04 2012 20:29 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 10:19 GrapeApe wrote:
So, I haven't been keeping up but has this case shifted directions from the "omg hang Zimmerman" to "okay, this might have been self defense/not so cut and dry after all?" It was very obvious from the start that Zimmerman was innocent. The narrative of some blood crazed neighborhood watchman out to murder innocent upstanding black children with great futures ahead of them for no reason other than his purely evil racist nature simply didn't make sense. Narratives like that only make sense in the deluded mind of left wing liberals who have been indoctrinated from birth to have a strong faith based belief in Black victimhood. There was, from the day after the shooting, a witness saying he saw Zimmerman being pummeled as he screamed for help. Just like that didn't sway the social justice crusaders, this new image will not either. They are extremely deluded and vicious people who are motivated by hatred and emotion, rather than logic and the available facts of the case. Funny how there is nary a peep out of them when Blacks kill other Blacks. They only pretend to care about Black deaths when it can be shoehorned into their fantasy world of Blacks being poor oppressed victims at the hands of evil White devils. http://i.imgur.com/tIVG8.jpg Wait you so mock the narrative that Trayvon was innocent and that Zimmerman was a violent racist and then go on to build a narrative where Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman for no reason at all? Rather deluded if you ask me, not to mention you're completely straw-manning anyone who doesn't think that Zimmerman is innocent. There's several problems with your simple analysis, how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example? It would seem as though Zimmerman was following him (police calls etc.). It seems altogether more likely that Trayvon was being followed and felt threatened. We don't really know what happened when they came into contact but I can only imagine neither side was acting responsibly. We do not know who threw the first punch or how the violence started, we do know however that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon is now dead - shot by the gun of Zimmerman. Also that picture is terribly racist and you should be ashamed. Trayvon lashed out at Zimmerman because he was upset at being reported to police.
It's very common behaviour among African Americans. Dave Chapelle even did a segment on this mentality called "When Keepin' It Real Goes Wrong".
On December 04 2012 20:55 Elsid wrote:
how did Zimmerman and Trayvon come into contact for example Good question, but you aren't going to like the answer. Zimmerman stopped to talk to police for two minutes after he lost sight of Trayvon and stopped pursuing. Trayvon had two whole minutes to put distance between them. In fact, his home was only a few dozen yards away. Trayvon could easily have gone home in this time. The only possible explanation is that Trayvon was waiting for Zimmerman. After Zimmerman got off the phone and was heading back to his car Trayvon attacked. Glad to see that you are generalizing African Americans based upon a ridiculous skit by a comedian. Are you seriously this dense, do you believe the bs that you just typed? Whats your evidence for this behavior? How many African Americans do you even know? Probably not a many seeing as you're Canadian. Even if you knew 3000 personally you can't make blind generalizations such as this. You're either a troll or obviously racially biased.
Theres a very real notable differences between cultures/behaviors from people that live in low income areas (typically Latino/African Americans) and people in other places. I live in the South Bronx in New York City, and I can say from firsthand experience that the behavior that people up here are taught to grow up with is very different from other places (Which I see when I go downtown for college and other stuff). People in low income areas are generally more aggressive and defensive because if you do not display these behaviors then you are generally perceived as being "weak" and as such become a target for other people. People that I have known personally have gotten shot/stabbed for situations where they start an argument because they feel the other person "disrespected them".
To me it is not an unrealistic response for someone to come back and start a fight with someone who simply said something they didnt like.
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On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/
Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around?
Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that.
The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy?
Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. Its obviously murder, plain and simple.
![[image loading]](http://americanlivewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/george-zimmerman-cuts-0523-300x202.jpg)
Here shows he has no swelling after being released, it is impossible to have a broken swelling nose and then look perfectly fine an hour later.
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On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate.
It might be a difference in uprising or watnot but I feel that Zimmerman did what he felt was necessary.
I dont know if you've never experienced fights or what but I can tell you from firsthand experience that when you are actually in a fight, and I mean in a brutal fight where you are doing EVERYTHING to beat the other person then your instinct takes over. Not much thought happens, you react quickly and instinctively and your ONLY goal is to make sure the other person CANNOT fight back.
I am not justifying Zimmerman shooting Trayvon but I am saying that I have had similar experiences and could understand why he pulled the trigger.
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On December 05 2012 03:45 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. It might be a difference in uprising or watnot but I feel that Zimmerman did what he felt was necessary. I dont know if you've never experienced fights or what but I can tell you from firsthand experience that when you are actually in a fight, and I mean in a brutal fight where you are doing EVERYTHING to beat the other person then your instinct takes over. Not much thought happens, you react quickly and instinctively and your ONLY goal is to make sure the other person CANNOT fight back. I am not justifying Zimmerman shooting Trayvon but I am saying that I have had similar experiences and could understand why he pulled the trigger.
You chased down someone and forced a conflict?
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On December 05 2012 03:49 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:45 Anesthetic wrote:On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. It might be a difference in uprising or watnot but I feel that Zimmerman did what he felt was necessary. I dont know if you've never experienced fights or what but I can tell you from firsthand experience that when you are actually in a fight, and I mean in a brutal fight where you are doing EVERYTHING to beat the other person then your instinct takes over. Not much thought happens, you react quickly and instinctively and your ONLY goal is to make sure the other person CANNOT fight back. I am not justifying Zimmerman shooting Trayvon but I am saying that I have had similar experiences and could understand why he pulled the trigger. You chased down someone and forced a conflict?
Im not talking about the events that happened before. Im talking about the actual mindset that you get when you fight (especially if you dont fight that often). For me and most people I know that have been in fights it becomes pure animalistic brutality to the point where you dont think and just try to inflict as much harm as you can to the other person( this can be changed with proper training/more experience but it doesnt sound to me that zimmerman had that training/experience).
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On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. Its obviously murder, plain and simple. Here shows he has no swelling after being released, it is impossible to have a broken swelling nose and then look perfectly fine an hour later.
Yup nose doesn't look broken at all.....
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On December 05 2012 03:52 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:49 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:45 Anesthetic wrote:On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. It might be a difference in uprising or watnot but I feel that Zimmerman did what he felt was necessary. I dont know if you've never experienced fights or what but I can tell you from firsthand experience that when you are actually in a fight, and I mean in a brutal fight where you are doing EVERYTHING to beat the other person then your instinct takes over. Not much thought happens, you react quickly and instinctively and your ONLY goal is to make sure the other person CANNOT fight back. I am not justifying Zimmerman shooting Trayvon but I am saying that I have had similar experiences and could understand why he pulled the trigger. You chased down someone and forced a conflict? Im not talking about the events that happened before. Im talking about the actual mindset that you get when you fight (especially if you dont fight that often). For me and most people I know that have been in fights it becomes pure animalistic brutality to the point where you dont think and just try to inflict as much harm as you can to the other person( this can be changed with proper training/more experience but it doesnt sound to me that zimmerman had that training/experience).
Fair enough, though Zimmerman's actions post-initiation ought not be the focal point of the prosecution; it is precisely Zimmerman's willingness to initiate the conflict in the first place that led to the death of another, and that is manslaughter in my mind and where the DA ought to really hone in on. Then again, as I've said, the prosecution is clearly incompetent and I don't really know how this'll end up.
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On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence ( Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. Its obviously murder, plain and simple.
I would love to see proof of the bolded text. Good luck, you won't find any.
Oh yes, clearly just a, "punch to the lip" after seeing his bloody and doctor diagnosed closed fracture of the nose (but you're an expert on broken noses) and a long gash across the back of his head.
On December 05 2012 03:49 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:45 Anesthetic wrote:On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. It might be a difference in uprising or watnot but I feel that Zimmerman did what he felt was necessary. I dont know if you've never experienced fights or what but I can tell you from firsthand experience that when you are actually in a fight, and I mean in a brutal fight where you are doing EVERYTHING to beat the other person then your instinct takes over. Not much thought happens, you react quickly and instinctively and your ONLY goal is to make sure the other person CANNOT fight back. I am not justifying Zimmerman shooting Trayvon but I am saying that I have had similar experiences and could understand why he pulled the trigger. You chased down someone and forced a conflict?
I would love to see proof Zimmerman "chased down" and forced a "conflict" with Trayvon, whatever that means. I have a feeling I won't see any.
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On December 05 2012 04:04 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence ( Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. Its obviously murder, plain and simple. I would love to see proof of the bolded text. Good luck, you won't find any. Oh yes, clearly just a, "punch to the lip" after seeing his bloody and doctor diagnosed closed fracture of the nose (but you're an expert on broken noses) and a long gash across the back of his head.
Dude, sluggaslamoo is going to the trial to present his evidence, he actually does know what hes talking about, and hes going to flip this trial upside down.
Sluggaslamoo for broken nose expert / pro-evidence gatherer / prosecutor!
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On December 05 2012 03:52 Anesthetic wrote:
Im not talking about the events that happened before. Im talking about the actual mindset that you get when you fight (especially if you dont fight that often). For me and most people I know that have been in fights it becomes pure animalistic brutality to the point where you dont think and just try to inflict as much harm as you can to the other person( this can be changed with proper training/more experience but it doesnt sound to me that zimmerman had that training/experience).
I don't understand that logic.
If i start a fight, and think they might kill or seriously harm me, its ok for me to kill them?
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On December 05 2012 04:08 phrenzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:52 Anesthetic wrote:
Im not talking about the events that happened before. Im talking about the actual mindset that you get when you fight (especially if you dont fight that often). For me and most people I know that have been in fights it becomes pure animalistic brutality to the point where you dont think and just try to inflict as much harm as you can to the other person( this can be changed with proper training/more experience but it doesnt sound to me that zimmerman had that training/experience). I don't understand that logic. If i start a fight, and think they might kill or seriously harm me, its ok for me to kill them?
I think someone already mentioned that there is no proof on who initiated the fight, and as a result this is not a valid argument.
Edit: Also, I am not justifying what he did, Im merely providing some alternate points of view since it seems to me like most people in this thread have never been in a fight and don't know what it feels like/why people do such drastic things during them.
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i dont understand why this picture is released now and not before in march etc.
can somebody explain to me why? i dont get it sorry.
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On December 05 2012 04:06 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:04 Romantic wrote:On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence ( Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. Its obviously murder, plain and simple. I would love to see proof of the bolded text. Good luck, you won't find any. Oh yes, clearly just a, "punch to the lip" after seeing his bloody and doctor diagnosed closed fracture of the nose (but you're an expert on broken noses) and a long gash across the back of his head. Dude, sluggaslamoo is going to the trial to present his evidence, he actually does know what hes talking about, and hes going to flip this trial upside down. Sluggaslamoo for broken nose expert / pro-evidence gatherer / prosecutor!
The Trayvon Martin killing should be a case study on how people use language deceptively. A closed fracture and bleeding nose with gashes on the back of your head, likely from being slammed in to the pavement is just a, "Punch to the lip". Following a suspicious person while speaking with police is, "chasing down and confronting".
For some people, Hispanic\white guy reporting suspicious person to police and following him = racist white murderer stalks and shoots unarmed skittles holding black boy followed by racist police not arresting him. I think that one goes beyond just deceptive use of language though.
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On December 05 2012 04:12 bailando wrote:
i dont understand why this picture is released now and not before in march etc.
can somebody explain to me why? i dont get it sorry.
Floridian judicial practice and procedure, especially from state and local attorneys, does not compare favorably with the rest of the United States. At times, especially with cases like this, it literally seems like they (Florida) have no idea how to practice American law.
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On December 05 2012 04:14 farvacola wrote:
Floridian judicial practice and procedure, especially from state and local attorneys, does not compare favorably with the rest of the United States. At times, especially with cases like this, it literally seems like they (Florida) have no idea how to practice American law.
ok i understand what you say. but i mean isnt that picture crucial? its still a big mindfuck to me when i think about it. i really cant get the idea in my head someone forgot it or they didnt know what to do with it.
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On December 05 2012 04:14 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:12 bailando wrote:
i dont understand why this picture is released now and not before in march etc.
can somebody explain to me why? i dont get it sorry. Floridian judicial practice and procedure, especially from state and local attorneys, does not compare favorably with the rest of the United States. At times, especially with cases like this, it literally seems like they (Florida) have no idea how to practice American law.
I seriously hope I never have to deal with the cops out here for any reason other than a traffic violation. In my hometown they busted a bonfire party in someone's backyard guns drawn where it was ten high schoolers drinking and smoking pot. I've been frisked on my way to school in Cocoa Beach when I was in high school because my license wasn't with a Cocoa Beach address and because I got pulled over going six over, had long hair and was wearing a hoodie. Naturally they assumed I was on drugs despite me pointing out the parking permit for the school on my car and it being twenty minutes before school started. Those are just personal experiences but there are plenty of news stories that are much worse all the time.
Not saying all cops are bad, I've had plenty of encounters with great cops but Florida just seems like it'd be much more likely to run into an incompetent/over zealous cop than elsewhere in the nation.
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On December 05 2012 02:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Prosecution has already messed up so many times and even if they hadn't it would still be impossible to prove Zimmerman started the fight beyond a reasonable doubt.
All the evidence supports Zimmerman's story except that there is no evidence as to who actually started the fight other than his word. So you either believe him or you don't. But there isn't enough here to get a fair jury to convict and there never was, just a media-racist freakout with all the high notes of liberal guilt dogma being hit. Guns, race, it was like it was tailor-made to send liberals into a frenzy of knee-jerk screams of racism and apoplexy over firearms.
I know nothing about this conflict, but I knew before reading your post what you would think about it. Talk about knee-jerk reaction!
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On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 23:26 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 23:10 saltywet wrote:Okay, this is the first time I read about this and I just spent the last hour reading about the background and aftermath about this... The solid facts that I got from reading the report are: 1. There was definitely a cry for help, recorded on the tape 2. Witnesses seeing one man on top of another, throwing punches 3. Martin's autopsy reports that Martin had a small abrasion on his left ring finger, a gunshot to the chest at close range, and no other injuries. The fact that Martin had physical injury (ie bruises, cuts) leads me to believe that it was a one sided fight where Martin was attacking Zimmerman, that Zimmerman was definitely crying out for help, and that Zimmerman retaliated in self-defence. Other smaller details/questions also seem to support this, ie - Why would Martin go back and confront Zimmerman? If he feels that Zimmerman is a threat why not run home?
- Martin is on his third disciplinary suspension from his high school.
- Martin passed a lie detector where he was asked if he was in fear for his life when he shot the gun (ie self defense); of course, lie detectors can be deceived but this is still a good detail
Yep, gotta agree with this. Logic in regard to the injuries points to Trayvon being on top in th fight which makes Zimmerman's claim of self-defence look pretty sound. Unfortunately some people seem to have had a very close-minded agenda of portraying Zimmerman as a racist lunatic since day one and ignore anything that might contradict that. The next thing they'll be saying is that this picture was photoshopped. Edit- Yep, didn't take them long: http://americanlivewire.com/george-zimmerman-photoshopped/ Uh saltywet. Have you got martin and zimmerman the wrong way around? Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that. The picture adds nothing to the debate. If you confront someone aggressively, you have every right to attack them in self defence (Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him). Also Zimmerman used beyond reasonable force in the fight, he got a punch to the lip, and he needed to pull out a gun and shoot the guy? Its Zimmermans own damn fault for confronting Martin. The voice recording tells all, whatever story Zimmerman tells, whether or its sound or not, is plain wrong and adds nothing to the debate. Its obviously murder, plain and simple. http://americanlivewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/george-zimmerman-cuts-0523-300x202.jpgHere shows he has no swelling after being released, it is impossible to have a broken swelling nose and then look perfectly fine an hour later.
It is frightening to me that someone can exist in such a state of ignorance when the information that shows how wrong they are is so readily available. You must be trying very hard to remain so misinformed.
On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Zimmerman is a racist lunatic. You only need the recording to justify that.
You only need the recording to justify your claim that "Zimmerman is a racist lunatic"? Go ahead and show what part of the recording justifies such a vicious and libelous statement on your part.
Zimmerman has a past history of anti-racism. He protested police over the beating of a homeless black man, has many positive interactions with blacks, has black family members, and a black acquaintance has vouched for his character.
Go ahead and try to justify your hateful and outright wrong claims. You can't.
On December 05 2012 03:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:
(Martin was clearly running away, and Zimmerman was chasing him).
This is 100% utterly false. You are telling outrageous lies.
Zimmerman was talking on the phone with police for two minutes after losing sight of Trayvon and ending his pursuit. Two minutes. Trayvon had two minutes to put distance between himself and Zimmerman. Two minutes to cover a few dozen yards to the house he was staying at if he had any desire at all to flee.
The timeline shows your delusional fantasy is absolutely impossible. Trayvon could not possibly have been running away. It's not possible.
You are telling vicious and hateful lies. I hope you can consider the potential consequences spreading these vile lies could cause. Not even just to Zimmerman himself. When he gets acquitted, which he will if the justice system is at all fair, people who buy into the lies told by people like yourself will be very angry and could react with violence.
Please don't post if you don't know what you are talking about. You have a lot of emotional rage and no common sense, facts, or logic in your post.
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EPT
