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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious.
Exaggerate much? If you're assaulting a stranger, they're kind of permitted to defend themselves with a gun if they feel their life is in danger and there's no other reasonable way(s) out. Like it or not, that's the law in Florida.
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On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is.
I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick.
I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon.
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Wow. The way that O'Mara has come out after the break is so interesting. It seems so much more powerful since he was so calm earlier.
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On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon.
Taser = potential murder weapon.
Also smashing someones head repeatedly is a bit beyond being a huge dick,
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Anyone catch MOM's re-representing Serino's belief that Zimmerman was telling the truth?
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On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon.
This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread but got laughed off for being a pansy/delusional. Carrying a gun as a neighborhood watch is kinda overkill. Especially since in a lot of countries the police themselves don't even carry guns. And in America, neighborhood watches certainly don't carry guns themselves. Or follow criminals on foot for that matter.
But yeah smashing someone's head into the pavement is a bit more aggressive than simple dickishness.
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On July 12 2013 23:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:46 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2013 23:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:39 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that. So none of them got out of the car to chase you huh? Nor were they likely to see your home so they could assault you there maybe after they broke in as Trayvon was likely aware of the break-ins in the neighborhood too. The situations you describe are not even remotely similar. Obviously you have a point to make in this thread. You'd help your cause if you made even a minimal effort at being fair with the evidence. Regarding what aspect/s of the evidence? How about any and all of it? This... Show nested quote +
Well he might not want to lead a suspicious person, who's been following him through the entire neighborhood, and continued to chase him in a foot pursuit right to his house?
Doesn't mean he didn't want to safely get home.
... is an absolutely ludicrous spin on the facts.
It's actually not... It's a lot more sensible than Kai's dime store novel. But you look at GZ's refusal to ever have a remotely reasonable explanation for the last moments of the non-emrg call or the at minimally equally strange time gap in his story (as compared to the 4 minutes for trayvon) as "minor inconsistencies"
The only "fact" I was referencing outside of the strictly legal concept is the Non-emerg call. Other than that it's interpretations of witnesses in which case one can believe as much or as little of the testifiers testimony as deemed reasonable.
It's clear you believe far more of what GZ said than I do. Essentially at the moment he says from when he got out of the car beyond when he said he was following him until about when Good sees them can I reasonably believe much if any of what GZ said happened. there are a multitude of reasons some I have already outlined in my timeline breakdown.
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On July 13 2013 00:00 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon. This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread but got laughed off for being a pansy/delusional. Carrying a gun as a neighborhood watch is kinda overkill. Especially since in a lot of countries the police themselves don't even carry guns. And in America, neighborhood watches certainly don't carry guns themselves. Or follow criminals on foot for that matter. But yeah smashing someone's head into the pavement is a bit more aggressive than simple dickishness.
A much better alternative would be not allowing people incapable of defending themselves from an unarmed assailant to go around following potential criminals late at night.
Actually better yet, civilians shouldn't be following people around late at night full stop, at least police are well marked AND trained to deal with these kind of encounters.
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On July 12 2013 23:58 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon. Taser = potential murder weapon. Also smashing someones head repeatedly is a bit beyond being a huge dick,
Tasers are a hell of a lot less of a potential murder weapon then almost any other type of "non-lethal" weapon. Yeah its a lot more aggressive then just being a dick but its still just borderline attempted murder at the most.
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On July 13 2013 00:03 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:00 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon. This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread but got laughed off for being a pansy/delusional. Carrying a gun as a neighborhood watch is kinda overkill. Especially since in a lot of countries the police themselves don't even carry guns. And in America, neighborhood watches certainly don't carry guns themselves. Or follow criminals on foot for that matter. But yeah smashing someone's head into the pavement is a bit more aggressive than simple dickishness. A much better alternative would be not allowing people incapable of defending themselves from an unarmed assailant to go around following potential criminals late at night.
Which is exactly how neighborhood watches work. You patrol and if you see suspicious activity, you report to the police and get to safety. Under no circumstances are you supposed to follow the criminal. Zimmerman might not have violated any laws but he certainly acted like a dumbass.
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I don't believe GZ ever intended violence. He obviously didn't initiate the conflict and if someone attacks you, you then have every right to defend yourself. He defended himself. A kid is dead. GZ is, in my opinion, innocent.
Also I'm pretty sure if he was white this case would already be over.
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On July 13 2013 00:03 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:00 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon. This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread but got laughed off for being a pansy/delusional. Carrying a gun as a neighborhood watch is kinda overkill. Especially since in a lot of countries the police themselves don't even carry guns. And in America, neighborhood watches certainly don't carry guns themselves. Or follow criminals on foot for that matter. But yeah smashing someone's head into the pavement is a bit more aggressive than simple dickishness. A much better alternative would be not allowing people incapable of defending themselves from an unarmed assailant to go around following potential criminals around late at night.
To be fair he had the gun to protect himself from those criminals late at night.
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Yeah I have a feeling if it was someones Mom/sister/daughter on trial for shooting a strange man who was following her in his car, then got out to follow her, without giving her any indication who he was, managed to get essentially within sight of her home, reached for his phone which he thought was in the same general place of his gun and she shot him I am sure everyone would be saying we have to convict her because she didn't have a right to punch him let alone shoot him...
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TLADT24920 Posts
O'Mara is destroying this! Wonder what the prosecutor will respond with.
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On July 13 2013 00:09 BigFan wrote:
O'Mara is destroying this! Wonder what the prosecutor will respond with.
He'll yell louder and pound his fist harder.
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On July 13 2013 00:09 BigFan wrote:
O'Mara is destroying this! Wonder what the prosecutor will respond with.
They better have that 1 piece of evidence!! :D~
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On July 13 2013 00:08 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:03 zbedlam wrote:On July 13 2013 00:00 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:
[quote]
I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman.
Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes.
Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder.
when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon. This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread but got laughed off for being a pansy/delusional. Carrying a gun as a neighborhood watch is kinda overkill. Especially since in a lot of countries the police themselves don't even carry guns. And in America, neighborhood watches certainly don't carry guns themselves. Or follow criminals on foot for that matter. But yeah smashing someone's head into the pavement is a bit more aggressive than simple dickishness. A much better alternative would be not allowing people incapable of defending themselves from an unarmed assailant to go around following potential criminals around late at night. To be fair he had the gun to protect himself from those criminals late at night.
But don't you think it would have been much better if he had simply reported the suspicious person to police and moved on...exactly like neighborhood watch policy instructs?
And remember, Martin almost got the gun. Having the gun was kinda a gamble for Zimmerman. If Martin had gotten ahold of it Zimmerman would have been dead instead.
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On July 13 2013 00:03 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:58 zbedlam wrote:On July 12 2013 23:57 Sermokala wrote:On July 12 2013 23:50 ConGee wrote:On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious. He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is. I would say He could use a good tazeing for what he did but theres no reason why anyone deserves to die for being a huge dick. I think all of us can agree it would have been a much different and better situation if any "neighborhood watch" people carry tazers instead of a potential murder weapon. Taser = potential murder weapon. Also smashing someones head repeatedly is a bit beyond being a huge dick, Tasers are a hell of a lot less of a potential murder weapon then almost any other type of "non-lethal" weapon. Yeah its a lot more aggressive then just being a dick but its still just borderline attempted murder at the most.
What is "Just borderline attempted murder at the most" supposed to mean.
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MOM is sounding very cocky. I hope he doesn't go down due to that and an emotional rebuttal.
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I almost feel sorry for the prosecutor now, he looks crushed
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EPT
