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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
You have to admit that the idea that Trayvon was trying to get home is pretty much destroyed by this 4 minutes. He clearly wasn't trying to get away, or he would have.
Well he might not want to lead a suspicious person, who's been following him through the entire neighborhood, and continued to chase him in a foot pursuit right to his house?
Doesn't mean he didn't want to safely get home
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On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home.
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It's official! Virtually no one is in "decent shape" according to O'Mara hahah
4 minute mile anyone?
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I don't think he's guilty.
We have no idea how they started to fight, but one of them is a punk kid with a violent history, and one is a 29 year old who is policing his neighbourhood.
If a black guy is on top of me bouncing my head off the pavement and I have a gun, Im going to shoot him.
Hard to blame him really.
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Here comes the righteous indignation from O'Mara. All the more effective because he has been so understated up until now.
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On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home.
How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them?
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On July 12 2013 23:22 xDaunt wrote:
Here comes the righteous indignation from O'Mara. All the more effective because he has been so understated up until now.
HAHA hes got a fucking chart about the burden of proof. Hes absolutely dunking on the prosecution right now.
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On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them?
It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot.
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lol so much for the 'wannabe cop' angle.
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On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them?
I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that.
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I also ran home in a similar situation as a young kid. It's pretty obvious Trayvon wanted some kind of confrontation. Not saying what KIND of confrontation Trayvon wanted, but he definitely wanted something. He supposdly circled GZ's car, too.
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On July 12 2013 23:39 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that.
So none of them got out of the car to chase you huh? Nor were they likely to see your home so they could assault you there maybe after they broke in as Trayvon was likely aware of the break-ins in the neighborhood too. The situations you describe are not even remotely similar.
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On July 12 2013 23:39 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that.
Most people run in possibly dangerous situations that you think you can avoid. Only people who think they are bad-asses, or people with CHL's don't run.
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On July 12 2013 23:42 Yacobs wrote:
I also ran home in a similar situation as a young kid. It's pretty obvious Trayvon wanted some kind of confrontation. Not saying what KIND of confrontation Trayvon wanted, but he definitely wanted something. He supposdly circled GZ's car, too.
Yeah GZ said he circled he said he didn't circle depends on which stories of his you want to believe.
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On July 12 2013 23:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:39 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that. So none of them got out of the car to chase you huh? Nor were they likely to see your home so they could assault you there maybe after they broke in as Trayvon was likely aware of the break-ins in the neighborhood too. The situations you describe are not even remotely similar.
Obviously you have a point to make in this thread. You'd help your cause if you made even a minimal effort at being fair with the evidence.
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On July 12 2013 23:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:39 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that. So none of them got out of the car to chase you huh? Nor were they likely to see your home so they could assault you there maybe after they broke in as Trayvon was likely aware of the break-ins in the neighborhood too. The situations you describe are not even remotely similar. Obviously you have a point to make in this thread. You'd help your cause if you made even a minimal effort at being fair with the evidence.
Regarding what aspect/s of the evidence?
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On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot.
WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious.
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On July 12 2013 23:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:46 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2013 23:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:39 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? I think I was being followed once and after turning a corner I just ran home (no car involved). 2 friends of mine were returning home really late into the night in a similar situation and they also just ran home. I'm pretty sure anyone I know would run in a situation like that. So none of them got out of the car to chase you huh? Nor were they likely to see your home so they could assault you there maybe after they broke in as Trayvon was likely aware of the break-ins in the neighborhood too. The situations you describe are not even remotely similar. Obviously you have a point to make in this thread. You'd help your cause if you made even a minimal effort at being fair with the evidence. Regarding what aspect/s of the evidence?
How about any and all of it? This...
Well he might not want to lead a suspicious person, who's been following him through the entire neighborhood, and continued to chase him in a foot pursuit right to his house?
Doesn't mean he didn't want to safely get home.
... is an absolutely ludicrous spin on the facts.
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On July 12 2013 23:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 23:34 ZasZ. wrote:On July 12 2013 23:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2013 23:20 Cheerio wrote:On July 12 2013 18:15 Velocirapture wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Kaitlin wrote:
Here's what we know:
1. Trayvon told Rachel that "creepy ass cracker" was following him for no reason. At some point she told him to run, and he said "Nah, I'm almost home". (This does not equate to I'm in my fucking backyard...)
2. Zimmerman was parked in his car (at its final parking place) when Trayvon "started running" and Zimmerman lost sight of him as Trayvon went down the "dog walk".
3. Zimmerman got out of his car after this and started heading across the top of the "T" part of the sidewalk.
4. Some "unexplained" time passed. I am unclear on exactly how much time and how they figured it, as it seems they are using Rachel's conversation with Trayvon in conjunction with the 911 calls, but they don't necessarily follow the same baseline. We know the 911 calls will all match up, but the Rachel / Trayvon call was different.
5. There was a confrontation, keys, flashlights, phones, miscellaneous other shit ended up strewn about the scene and George shot Trayvon.
Here's what I think happened:
1. Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, relayed his displeasure about it to Rachel, circled Zimmerman's car at one point to check him out, walked across the top of the "T".
2. Trayvon knew George was in the car watching him, so just before he went of Zimmerman's sight, he started to run, as if to bait Zimmerman to get out to follow him so Trayvon could ambush him. Trayvon wanted to beat this "creepy ass cracker's" ass because Trayvon was being profiled simply because he was black, and he likes that about as much as Rachel likes to testify.
3. Trayvon likely stopped running after he got out of Zimmerman's sight and found a nice place to hide in the pitch black, so he could ambush George as he came looking for him. Trayvon likely told Rachel what he was about to do, as this explains why she thought it was "just a fight" and didn't call anyone when texts and phone calls to Trayvon's phone went unanswered. Trayvon probably was waiting for George to come down the "T" where it was nice and dark for a better ambush, but George probably went directly across to check for an address. On George's way back to his car, Trayvon noticed George wasn't coming down the "T" as he had hoped for, so after George had passed, Trayvon came out to confront George.
4. The best I can think of to explain any "unexplained" gaps of time is George may have come down the "T" to see if he could find Trayvon, but not far enough down the "T" for Trayvon to successfully ambush him. It also might be that Rachel's timeline is fucked up because she either heard the entire incident through the phone, or Trayvon disconnected the call beforehand. Rachel's reaction to this is just too fishy to be as she explains it.
5. The confrontation probably went similar to how George described it, as far as dialog. It's entirely possible the confrontation didn't originate at the "T", but down closer to where they were seen by John Good. I have a feeling George just fudged that little distance to remove the "following" aspect of having gone down the "T". In either case, it seems it was a planned ambush by Trayvon and he got shot for it.
Pretty sure that's consistent with all evidence and also matches with the "left to right" movement heard by the one witness in the beginning of the trial, although I think she's full of shit because who remembers people walking outside when there is no reason to remember ? I find this whole "ambush" line of reasoning very suspect given your "what we know" points. I am not saying your story didn't happen, Im simply saying that it conflicts with every experience I have ever had with kids like Tayvon and guys like Zimmerman. Unless this conflicts with some piece of evidence I have not heard the Occam's Razor scenario given the facts is, in my mind, as follows. Tayvon is walking home and notices he is being followed. The first instinct is to be scared since the nature of the follower is uncertain so he flees and hides. Zimmerman pulls over and begins pursuit on foot. At this point Tayvon knows it is just this one guy and he gets angry, comes out and starts barking just like all stupid kids do. With Tayvon in his face, likely saying he is gonna beat his ass, Zimmerman pushes Tayvon away and violence ensues. During the course of a normal fistfight the presence of a gun is revealed and the situation explodes. Now, my account is just as speculative but it has the added bonus of being an extraordinarily typical interaction between people. BTW, none of this means he is guilty of murder. when a normal kid is being followed 30 yards away from "home" he doesn't hide in the neighbours bushes, he runs home. How many "normal kids" do you know that are suspiciously followed by an unannounced person who gets out of their car to chase them? It happened to me walking to school (7th-8th grade) once. Pretty sure it was a pedophile, but my walking route was a pretty public street so I just made sure to walk fast. There are many reasons that Trayvon could assume Zimmerman was following him for, and many people are right in that most of them are malicious in nature. But I don't buy the "he didn't want to lead him to his house" argument. For all intents and purposes, in these situations, you are safe once you reach your destination and get off the street. If Trayvon had just hurried home, he would have been fine. I have no doubt that it was the confrontational, alpha male personality that came to light through the data found on his phone that ultimately led to his death that night, so if people are going to try to hold Zimmerman accountable for shooting him, they need to understand that Trayvon was equally accountable for putting himself in a position where he needed to be shot. WTF man? So certain personality types just need a good shooting to set them straight, or what? Certainly you can't be serious.
He proceeded to pound Zimmerman's face into the concrete for a least 40 seconds. If pounding someone's face into concrete for forty seconds isn't opening yourself up to the use of deadly force, I don't know what is.
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On July 12 2013 23:21 Littlesheep wrote:
I don't think he's guilty.
We have no idea how they started to fight, but one of them is a punk kid with a violent history, and one is a 29 year old who is policing his neighbourhood.
If a black guy is on top of me bouncing my head off the pavement and I have a gun, Im going to shoot him.
Hard to blame him really.
What if its a white guy?
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