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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo.
dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were.
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this is a clever way by O'Mara to present tracey martin's testimony. establish his mental state and physical demeanor to destroy all credibility when tracey inevitably tries to argue that he was mistaken the first time he listened to the voice on the 911 call.
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Is it just me or does this guy sound EXACTLY like Russel Crowe?
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On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were.
People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite.
they were stupid though. But then again, a $1million bond? WTF?
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On July 09 2013 03:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were. People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite.
People do not, however, receive hundreds of thousands of dollars and some of the best defense attorneys money can buy. This whole scenario is clearly unique, or at least very unusual.
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On July 09 2013 03:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were. People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite.
they dont punish perjury very often because its incredibly difficult to prove. here, they have these dumbasses on video/tape lying. maybe it is spiteful to prosecute her, but so what? she committed a crime. there is no reason why she should go unpunished because allegedly people are always perjuring themselves--a proposition i find unlikely by the way.
they were stupid though. But then again, a $1million bond? WTF?
it was originally lower because they lied about their finances. also, there is considerable evidence showing zimmerman was about to flee the country.
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On July 09 2013 03:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is a clever way by O'Mara to present tracey martin's testimony. establish his mental state and physical demeanor to destroy all credibility when tracey inevitably tries to argue that he was mistaken the first time he listened to the voice on the 911 call.
Sounds like the prosecution is trying to show that the interpreted "no" was not really a response to the question as much as not accepting that his son had been killed.
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On July 09 2013 03:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is a clever way by O'Mara to present tracey martin's testimony. establish his mental state and physical demeanor to destroy all credibility when tracey inevitably tries to argue that he was mistaken the first time he listened to the voice on the 911 call. Sounds like the prosecution is trying to show that the interpreted "no" was not really a response to the question as much as not accepting that his son had been killed.
Even if they achieve that, I can't see this fact convincing the jury "beyond a reasonable doubt".
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On July 09 2013 03:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is a clever way by O'Mara to present tracey martin's testimony. establish his mental state and physical demeanor to destroy all credibility when tracey inevitably tries to argue that he was mistaken the first time he listened to the voice on the 911 call. Sounds like the prosecution is trying to show that the interpreted "no" was not really a response to the question as much as not accepting that his son had been killed.
police report says that tracy said it wasnt his son. i wonder if the cop is trying to get around that now.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 09 2013 03:05 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is a clever way by O'Mara to present tracey martin's testimony. establish his mental state and physical demeanor to destroy all credibility when tracey inevitably tries to argue that he was mistaken the first time he listened to the voice on the 911 call.
sounds like the defense just shut down the prosecution's argument about why tracey said it wasn't his son the first time.
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On July 09 2013 03:09 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were. People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite. they dont punish perjury very often because its incredibly difficult to prove. here, they have these dumbasses on video/tape lying. maybe it is spiteful to prosecute her, but so what? she committed a crime. there is no reason why she should go unpunished because allegedly people are always perjuring themselves--a proposition i find unlikely by the way.
You find it unlikely that people lie under oath all the time?
Further, I don't see why she should be charged. She didn't hurt anyone. She acted stupidly, and in the end she got her husband stuck back in jail. The whole trial is a farce anyway so I honestly don't care one bit that she lied to the fucking judge and prosecutors who are basically risking her husband's life so that they can avoid a political backlash.
it was originally lower because they lied about their finances. also, there is considerable evidence showing zimmerman was about to flee the country.
The prosecution wanted a $1 million dollar bond. They argued they were broke (didn't flatly state any numbers), judge set it lower. Jail records Zimmerman's calls and investigates their finances, Mrs. Zimmerman is arrested for perjury. Zimmerman was put back in jail.
I wasn't aware Zimmerman was about to flee, though I couldn't blame him if he had.
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It definitely hasn't helped the prosecution that they have had to essentially get LEO's to admit that they did their job wrong in order to prove their case using those same LEO's as witnesses.
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TLADT24920 Posts
ouch. Cop testifying that Zimmerman saying it wasn't him screaming just put some doubt on the sound so it can't be said with reasonable doubt which one it was. Man, that defense question about Zimmerman's voice was brilliant imo.
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On July 09 2013 02:22 ZasZ. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2013 01:50 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:38 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 01:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 09 2013 00:48 ZasZ. wrote:On July 08 2013 23:48 ComaDose wrote:
I just really dont like Zimmerman as a person. Is that still a valid possition? It's not like I hold any faith in the law, or enough law education to say he "murdered" someone, or it was "self defense". I don't really like Trayvon either though.
I just hate someone who would carry their gun around looking for suspicious people to follow. If it wasn't Trayvon that got murdered. How long do you think Zimmerman would have followed people around with his gun before someone got hurt? Not saying its illegal, your rights are safe, just saying its stupid. It's hard to tell from the way you worded your post, but you are aware that he was part of the neighborhood watch? With or without a gun, it was his responsibility to look for suspicious people. One can argue how smart it was for him to be carrying a firearm, but I suppose depending on the neighborhood and how seriously you took your job as neighborhood watch, it makes sense to have a way to protect yourself, as is evident in this case if what Zimmerman and Good say is true. What sort of question is that, by the way? No one can answer "how long" it would have taken for Zimmerman to hurt someone if he hadn't shot Trayvon Martin. That is a purely hypothetical question, and a perfectly valid answer is "forever." There is little, if anything, about Zimmerman that indicates if he hadn't gotten into this fight with Martin that it would have been some other kid the following week. People keep saying that Zimmerman was stupid for following Martin with a gun, OK I get that. People don't seem to carry the same criticism for Trayvon for assaulting him and forcing him to use it, however. I get that we all want to have sympathy for the dead kid, but people like to spout the emotionally charged hypothetical that if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a weapon that night, Trayvon would still be alive today. He would still be alive if he hadn't assaulted Zimmerman in the first place, as well. I consider myself a pretty liberal person on a lot of issues, but self-defense is something I believe very strongly in. If some random person with unknown motives starts assaulting me, you better believe I'd blow him away without a second thought rather than risk my own death. People need to think about consequences before they assault people who may be carrying a gun, and Trayvon should have done the same. It's generous of you to summarize his actions as "look for suspicious people". I do believe that eveyone (not batman) that follows suspicious people around in the dark with a gun on their days off will cause trouble. Are they the ones causing trouble, or are the suspicious people who then assault them causing the trouble? It's sad that we've gotten to a point where you have the idea of a neighborhood fucking watch being impugned. I knew he had volunteered to keep an eye out on his community when i heard he went door to door asking neighboors to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders"
You say depending on how seriously you take it. I say its pretty obvious he takes it way too seriously. If there are a lot of young black men who are outsiders coming into your community and burglarizing homes and you decide to join the neighborhood watch, you might want to warn people to be on the lookout. Perfectly nice, peaceful communities have turned into war-zones before because no one cared enough to step up and try to stop it from happening. I still blame the person that created the situation for the situation.
And im still unsettled that people treat court like a place where right and wrong are decided.
EDIT: just to clarify "job as neighboorhood watch" = volunteer position with no responsibility or authority right?
maybe its different in Canada If Zimmerman's story is true, than Trayvon created the situation. And yes, the neighborhood watch is not an authoritative position. Pretty easy to get the idea of a neighboorhood watch being impugned when they are shooting members of said neighboorhood. sad indeed. No Zimmerman obviously still created the situation, like, by being the one to create the situation. Trayvon was just reacted equally stupid. (may he rip) And I disagree with your justification for racial profiling but it doesn't seem pertinent. It depends what you consider a "situation." To me, the situation was only created once someone performed an illegal act. No matter how stupid or ill-conceived it may have been, it was not illegal for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon that night, and it was not illegal for him to be carrying a gun. Trayvon Martin committed a felony by assaulting George Zimmerman, which is what I would call creating the situation that resulted in his death. Yes, neighborhood watch is a volunteer position with no authority but I would call someone a bad neighborhood watch if they felt they had no responsibility. If there was a history of break-ins, and he saw a suspicious person, it is his responsibility as neighborhood watch to make sure nothing fishy is going on. Most people would call the cops, but people are right when they say calling the cops to report a suspicious individual on foot usually accomplishes nothing since it takes them a while to arrive at the scene, if they do at all. He would have gotten a much faster police reaction if he had followed Trayvon and saw him break into someone's house, and he likely would have backed off and gotten back into his truck if he had seen him enter his own home. Obviously neither of those outcomes happened due to the altercation, but those are valid justifications for following someone you think is suspicious. It's certainly better than calling the cops, having nothing happen, and then find out that your friend had their house broken into that same night.
On July 09 2013 02:16 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2013 01:50 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:38 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 01:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 09 2013 00:48 ZasZ. wrote:On July 08 2013 23:48 ComaDose wrote:
I just really dont like Zimmerman as a person. Is that still a valid possition? It's not like I hold any faith in the law, or enough law education to say he "murdered" someone, or it was "self defense". I don't really like Trayvon either though.
I just hate someone who would carry their gun around looking for suspicious people to follow. If it wasn't Trayvon that got murdered. How long do you think Zimmerman would have followed people around with his gun before someone got hurt? Not saying its illegal, your rights are safe, just saying its stupid. It's hard to tell from the way you worded your post, but you are aware that he was part of the neighborhood watch? With or without a gun, it was his responsibility to look for suspicious people. One can argue how smart it was for him to be carrying a firearm, but I suppose depending on the neighborhood and how seriously you took your job as neighborhood watch, it makes sense to have a way to protect yourself, as is evident in this case if what Zimmerman and Good say is true. What sort of question is that, by the way? No one can answer "how long" it would have taken for Zimmerman to hurt someone if he hadn't shot Trayvon Martin. That is a purely hypothetical question, and a perfectly valid answer is "forever." There is little, if anything, about Zimmerman that indicates if he hadn't gotten into this fight with Martin that it would have been some other kid the following week. People keep saying that Zimmerman was stupid for following Martin with a gun, OK I get that. People don't seem to carry the same criticism for Trayvon for assaulting him and forcing him to use it, however. I get that we all want to have sympathy for the dead kid, but people like to spout the emotionally charged hypothetical that if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a weapon that night, Trayvon would still be alive today. He would still be alive if he hadn't assaulted Zimmerman in the first place, as well. I consider myself a pretty liberal person on a lot of issues, but self-defense is something I believe very strongly in. If some random person with unknown motives starts assaulting me, you better believe I'd blow him away without a second thought rather than risk my own death. People need to think about consequences before they assault people who may be carrying a gun, and Trayvon should have done the same. It's generous of you to summarize his actions as "look for suspicious people". I do believe that eveyone (not batman) that follows suspicious people around in the dark with a gun on their days off will cause trouble. Are they the ones causing trouble, or are the suspicious people who then assault them causing the trouble? It's sad that we've gotten to a point where you have the idea of a neighborhood fucking watch being impugned. I knew he had volunteered to keep an eye out on his community when i heard he went door to door asking neighboors to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders"
You say depending on how seriously you take it. I say its pretty obvious he takes it way too seriously. If there are a lot of young black men who are outsiders coming into your community and burglarizing homes and you decide to join the neighborhood watch, you might want to warn people to be on the lookout. Perfectly nice, peaceful communities have turned into war-zones before because no one cared enough to step up and try to stop it from happening. I still blame the person that created the situation for the situation.
And im still unsettled that people treat court like a place where right and wrong are decided.
EDIT: just to clarify "job as neighboorhood watch" = volunteer position with no responsibility or authority right?
maybe its different in Canada If Zimmerman's story is true, than Trayvon created the situation. And yes, the neighborhood watch is not an authoritative position. Pretty easy to get the idea of a neighboorhood watch being impugned when they are shooting members of said neighboorhood. sad indeed. Well, first (and this is a relatively minor point), Trayvon Martin wasn't technically a member of the neighborhood. He was visiting his father's fiance's house. Second, that's like saying the cops are horrible because they shot someone and neglecting to mention that the person was beating on them. No Zimmerman obviously still created the situation, like, by being the one to create the situation. Trayvon was just reacted equally stupid. (may he rip) According to the defense, there was no "situation" until Trayvon created it by assaulting Zimmerman. And I disagree with your justification for racial profiling but it doesn't seem pertinent.
I would say it's pretty pertinent as the entirety of the prosecutions case is based on Zimmerman being a racist.
Impugned doesn't mean horrible.
I wasn't speaking legally, but I would define the situation as the interactions between the two of them and I would define the start as when they started to interact.
I am not speaking legally because I both don't know enough about law, and I do know enough to not be surprised or frazzled if the law goes either way on this. But my morality isn't based on law.
What I said and what my point is: I just I dont like Zimmerman because I think it is stupid and ill-conceived to follow suspicious people around while armed (or unarmed). Community watch or not. I'm not saying what Zimmerman did was illegal im just saying it was wrong. What Tryvon did was wrong too.
I wanted to voice my oppinon because with all this talk of Zimmerman being legal / less illegal / better / more lawful etc. I am frightened by people speaking about him as if he is good.
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On July 09 2013 03:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:09 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 03:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were. People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite. they dont punish perjury very often because its incredibly difficult to prove. here, they have these dumbasses on video/tape lying. maybe it is spiteful to prosecute her, but so what? she committed a crime. there is no reason why she should go unpunished because allegedly people are always perjuring themselves--a proposition i find unlikely by the way. You find it unlikely that people lie under oath all the time? Further, I don't see why she should be charged. She didn't hurt anyone. She acted stupidly, and in the end she got her husband stuck back in jail. The whole trial is a farce anyway so I honestly don't care one bit that she lied to the fucking judge and prosecutors who are basically risking her husband's life so that they can avoid a political backlash. Show nested quote +they were stupid though. But then again, a $1million bond? WTF? it was originally lower because they lied about their finances. also, there is considerable evidence showing zimmerman was about to flee the country. The prosecution wanted a $1 million dollar bond. They argued they were broke (didn't flatly state any numbers), judge set it lower. Jail records Zimmerman's calls and investigates their finances, Mrs. Zimmerman is arrested for perjury. Zimmerman was put back in jail. I wasn't aware Zimmerman was about to flee, though I couldn't blame him if he had.
i am apparently not as big a cynic as you. i do not think people commonly lie under oath. they may fudge/bend the truth; they may misremember facts; etc. but i dont believe people commonly outright lie.
nobody was hurt? the system is hurt when we allow people to blatantly lie in court. plus, it doesnt matter if anyone is hurt; its the law. "nobody was harmed" is not a defense to perjury.
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Mr. Martin's response to 911 call "it was not his son."
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On July 09 2013 03:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:09 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 03:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were. People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite. they dont punish perjury very often because its incredibly difficult to prove. here, they have these dumbasses on video/tape lying. maybe it is spiteful to prosecute her, but so what? she committed a crime. there is no reason why she should go unpunished because allegedly people are always perjuring themselves--a proposition i find unlikely by the way. You find it unlikely that people lie under oath all the time? Further, I don't see why she should be charged. She didn't hurt anyone. She acted stupidly, and in the end she got her husband stuck back in jail. The whole trial is a farce anyway so I honestly don't care one bit that she lied to the fucking judge and prosecutors who are basically risking her husband's life so that they can avoid a political backlash. Show nested quote +they were stupid though. But then again, a $1million bond? WTF? it was originally lower because they lied about their finances. also, there is considerable evidence showing zimmerman was about to flee the country. The prosecution wanted a $1 million dollar bond. They argued they were broke (didn't flatly state any numbers), judge set it lower. Jail records Zimmerman's calls and investigates their finances, Mrs. Zimmerman is arrested for perjury. Zimmerman was put back in jail. I wasn't aware Zimmerman was about to flee, though I couldn't blame him if he had.
That isn't how perjury works. The entire legal system is based on the idea that everyone tells the truth under oath. We take a ton of things once face value due to that. To break that trust is a serious and people should be held accountable for it. If not, the whole legal system doesn't really work.
And since when does the Court care if she hurt someone or not. The broke the law and lied directly to the Judge under oath. If you are that dumb and get caught, you might need to be knocked for it.
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"No" vs "Not his sons voice" uh ohhhhs
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On July 09 2013 03:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 03:09 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 03:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 03:02 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 09 2013 02:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Punishing his wife would be pretty fucking petty imo. dont lie. i can't believe how stupid they were. People perjure themselves all the time and go unpunished, the only reason they would go after Zimmerman's wife is because of the politics/spite. they dont punish perjury very often because its incredibly difficult to prove. here, they have these dumbasses on video/tape lying. maybe it is spiteful to prosecute her, but so what? she committed a crime. there is no reason why she should go unpunished because allegedly people are always perjuring themselves--a proposition i find unlikely by the way. You find it unlikely that people lie under oath all the time? Further, I don't see why she should be charged. She didn't hurt anyone. She acted stupidly, and in the end she got her husband stuck back in jail. The whole trial is a farce anyway so I honestly don't care one bit that she lied to the fucking judge and prosecutors who are basically risking her husband's life so that they can avoid a political backlash. they were stupid though. But then again, a $1million bond? WTF? it was originally lower because they lied about their finances. also, there is considerable evidence showing zimmerman was about to flee the country. The prosecution wanted a $1 million dollar bond. They argued they were broke (didn't flatly state any numbers), judge set it lower. Jail records Zimmerman's calls and investigates their finances, Mrs. Zimmerman is arrested for perjury. Zimmerman was put back in jail. I wasn't aware Zimmerman was about to flee, though I couldn't blame him if he had. i am apparently not as big a cynic as you. i do not think people commonly lie under oath. they may fudge/bend the truth; they may misremember facts; etc. but i dont believe people commonly outright lie. nobody was hurt? the system is hurt when we allow people to blatantly lie in court. plus, it doesnt matter if anyone is hurt; its the law. "nobody was harmed" is not a defense to perjury.
I'm not mounting a legal defense, nor have I ever said that I was. I am suggesting that it would be immoral to actually go after Zimmerman's wife just because they couldn't get Zimmerman.
The fact that this trial is going on right now, and wasn't immediately thrown out with a word to the DA not to bring shit like this into the courtroom, is disturbing and that, in my opinion, justifies any lies Zimmerman's wife may or may not have told.
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On July 09 2013 03:23 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:22 ZasZ. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2013 01:50 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:38 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 01:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 09 2013 00:48 ZasZ. wrote:On July 08 2013 23:48 ComaDose wrote:
I just really dont like Zimmerman as a person. Is that still a valid possition? It's not like I hold any faith in the law, or enough law education to say he "murdered" someone, or it was "self defense". I don't really like Trayvon either though.
I just hate someone who would carry their gun around looking for suspicious people to follow. If it wasn't Trayvon that got murdered. How long do you think Zimmerman would have followed people around with his gun before someone got hurt? Not saying its illegal, your rights are safe, just saying its stupid. It's hard to tell from the way you worded your post, but you are aware that he was part of the neighborhood watch? With or without a gun, it was his responsibility to look for suspicious people. One can argue how smart it was for him to be carrying a firearm, but I suppose depending on the neighborhood and how seriously you took your job as neighborhood watch, it makes sense to have a way to protect yourself, as is evident in this case if what Zimmerman and Good say is true. What sort of question is that, by the way? No one can answer "how long" it would have taken for Zimmerman to hurt someone if he hadn't shot Trayvon Martin. That is a purely hypothetical question, and a perfectly valid answer is "forever." There is little, if anything, about Zimmerman that indicates if he hadn't gotten into this fight with Martin that it would have been some other kid the following week. People keep saying that Zimmerman was stupid for following Martin with a gun, OK I get that. People don't seem to carry the same criticism for Trayvon for assaulting him and forcing him to use it, however. I get that we all want to have sympathy for the dead kid, but people like to spout the emotionally charged hypothetical that if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a weapon that night, Trayvon would still be alive today. He would still be alive if he hadn't assaulted Zimmerman in the first place, as well. I consider myself a pretty liberal person on a lot of issues, but self-defense is something I believe very strongly in. If some random person with unknown motives starts assaulting me, you better believe I'd blow him away without a second thought rather than risk my own death. People need to think about consequences before they assault people who may be carrying a gun, and Trayvon should have done the same. It's generous of you to summarize his actions as "look for suspicious people". I do believe that eveyone (not batman) that follows suspicious people around in the dark with a gun on their days off will cause trouble. Are they the ones causing trouble, or are the suspicious people who then assault them causing the trouble? It's sad that we've gotten to a point where you have the idea of a neighborhood fucking watch being impugned. I knew he had volunteered to keep an eye out on his community when i heard he went door to door asking neighboors to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders"
You say depending on how seriously you take it. I say its pretty obvious he takes it way too seriously. If there are a lot of young black men who are outsiders coming into your community and burglarizing homes and you decide to join the neighborhood watch, you might want to warn people to be on the lookout. Perfectly nice, peaceful communities have turned into war-zones before because no one cared enough to step up and try to stop it from happening. I still blame the person that created the situation for the situation.
And im still unsettled that people treat court like a place where right and wrong are decided.
EDIT: just to clarify "job as neighboorhood watch" = volunteer position with no responsibility or authority right?
maybe its different in Canada If Zimmerman's story is true, than Trayvon created the situation. And yes, the neighborhood watch is not an authoritative position. Pretty easy to get the idea of a neighboorhood watch being impugned when they are shooting members of said neighboorhood. sad indeed. No Zimmerman obviously still created the situation, like, by being the one to create the situation. Trayvon was just reacted equally stupid. (may he rip) And I disagree with your justification for racial profiling but it doesn't seem pertinent. It depends what you consider a "situation." To me, the situation was only created once someone performed an illegal act. No matter how stupid or ill-conceived it may have been, it was not illegal for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon that night, and it was not illegal for him to be carrying a gun. Trayvon Martin committed a felony by assaulting George Zimmerman, which is what I would call creating the situation that resulted in his death. Yes, neighborhood watch is a volunteer position with no authority but I would call someone a bad neighborhood watch if they felt they had no responsibility. If there was a history of break-ins, and he saw a suspicious person, it is his responsibility as neighborhood watch to make sure nothing fishy is going on. Most people would call the cops, but people are right when they say calling the cops to report a suspicious individual on foot usually accomplishes nothing since it takes them a while to arrive at the scene, if they do at all. He would have gotten a much faster police reaction if he had followed Trayvon and saw him break into someone's house, and he likely would have backed off and gotten back into his truck if he had seen him enter his own home. Obviously neither of those outcomes happened due to the altercation, but those are valid justifications for following someone you think is suspicious. It's certainly better than calling the cops, having nothing happen, and then find out that your friend had their house broken into that same night. Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:16 sc2superfan101 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2013 01:50 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 01:38 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 09 2013 01:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 09 2013 00:48 ZasZ. wrote:On July 08 2013 23:48 ComaDose wrote:
I just really dont like Zimmerman as a person. Is that still a valid possition? It's not like I hold any faith in the law, or enough law education to say he "murdered" someone, or it was "self defense". I don't really like Trayvon either though.
I just hate someone who would carry their gun around looking for suspicious people to follow. If it wasn't Trayvon that got murdered. How long do you think Zimmerman would have followed people around with his gun before someone got hurt? Not saying its illegal, your rights are safe, just saying its stupid. It's hard to tell from the way you worded your post, but you are aware that he was part of the neighborhood watch? With or without a gun, it was his responsibility to look for suspicious people. One can argue how smart it was for him to be carrying a firearm, but I suppose depending on the neighborhood and how seriously you took your job as neighborhood watch, it makes sense to have a way to protect yourself, as is evident in this case if what Zimmerman and Good say is true. What sort of question is that, by the way? No one can answer "how long" it would have taken for Zimmerman to hurt someone if he hadn't shot Trayvon Martin. That is a purely hypothetical question, and a perfectly valid answer is "forever." There is little, if anything, about Zimmerman that indicates if he hadn't gotten into this fight with Martin that it would have been some other kid the following week. People keep saying that Zimmerman was stupid for following Martin with a gun, OK I get that. People don't seem to carry the same criticism for Trayvon for assaulting him and forcing him to use it, however. I get that we all want to have sympathy for the dead kid, but people like to spout the emotionally charged hypothetical that if George Zimmerman wasn't carrying a weapon that night, Trayvon would still be alive today. He would still be alive if he hadn't assaulted Zimmerman in the first place, as well. I consider myself a pretty liberal person on a lot of issues, but self-defense is something I believe very strongly in. If some random person with unknown motives starts assaulting me, you better believe I'd blow him away without a second thought rather than risk my own death. People need to think about consequences before they assault people who may be carrying a gun, and Trayvon should have done the same. It's generous of you to summarize his actions as "look for suspicious people". I do believe that eveyone (not batman) that follows suspicious people around in the dark with a gun on their days off will cause trouble. Are they the ones causing trouble, or are the suspicious people who then assault them causing the trouble? It's sad that we've gotten to a point where you have the idea of a neighborhood fucking watch being impugned. I knew he had volunteered to keep an eye out on his community when i heard he went door to door asking neighboors to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders"
You say depending on how seriously you take it. I say its pretty obvious he takes it way too seriously. If there are a lot of young black men who are outsiders coming into your community and burglarizing homes and you decide to join the neighborhood watch, you might want to warn people to be on the lookout. Perfectly nice, peaceful communities have turned into war-zones before because no one cared enough to step up and try to stop it from happening. I still blame the person that created the situation for the situation.
And im still unsettled that people treat court like a place where right and wrong are decided.
EDIT: just to clarify "job as neighboorhood watch" = volunteer position with no responsibility or authority right?
maybe its different in Canada If Zimmerman's story is true, than Trayvon created the situation. And yes, the neighborhood watch is not an authoritative position. Pretty easy to get the idea of a neighboorhood watch being impugned when they are shooting members of said neighboorhood. sad indeed. Well, first (and this is a relatively minor point), Trayvon Martin wasn't technically a member of the neighborhood. He was visiting his father's fiance's house. Second, that's like saying the cops are horrible because they shot someone and neglecting to mention that the person was beating on them. No Zimmerman obviously still created the situation, like, by being the one to create the situation. Trayvon was just reacted equally stupid. (may he rip) According to the defense, there was no "situation" until Trayvon created it by assaulting Zimmerman. And I disagree with your justification for racial profiling but it doesn't seem pertinent.
I would say it's pretty pertinent as the entirety of the prosecutions case is based on Zimmerman being a racist. What I said and what my point is: I just I dont like Zimmerman because I think it is stupid and ill-conceived to follow suspicious people around while armed (or unarmed). Community watch or not. I'm not saying what Zimmerman did was illegal im just saying it was wrong. What Tryvon did was wrong too.
So you hate the idea of a neighborhood watch even if they aren't "shooting members of said neighborhood"?
This is the first time I've ever had someone tell me that being part of the neighborhood watch is morally wrong...
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