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The Affordable Healthcare Act in the U.S. Supreme Court -…

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This topic is not about the American Invasion of Iraq. Stop. - Page 23
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
June 28 2012 14:34 GMT
#1001
YES! I'm so happy right now :-)
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
inzaneone
Profile Joined December 2010
United States18 Posts
June 28 2012 14:35 GMT
#1002
My two cents for what is worth How could one of the justices that before she was a on the court. She worked for the govermanent arguing for Obamacare rule on this. Is this not a breech of ethics? If you think the government knows how to run or can run heath insurance. Think again as a veteran that goes through the VA for his medical. I can tell you that is the worst thing that they you could have. The only thing its good for is a annual physical and that it. If you are sick or need something good luck getting the treatment you need since it is always at least 2 weeks before you can get in to see a medical person.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
June 28 2012 14:35 GMT
#1003
On June 28 2012 23:32 tree.hugger wrote:
THE TAX ARGUMENT WINS!

Who was the third party attorney who argued that point on day one?

EDIT: Via ScotusBlog
Show nested quote +
In Plain English: The Affordable Care Act, including its individual mandate that virtually all Americans buy health insurance, is constitutional. There were not five votes to uphold it on the ground that Congress could use its power to regulate commerce between the states to require everyone to buy health insurance. However, five Justices agreed that the penalty that someone must pay if he refuses to buy insurance is a kind of tax that Congress can impose using its taxing power. That is all that matters. Because the mandate survives, the Court did not need to decide what other parts of the statute were constitutional, except for a provision that required states to comply with new eligibility requirements for Medicaid or risk losing their funding. On that question, the Court held that the provision is constitutional as long as states would only lose new funds if they didn't comply with the new requirements, rather than all of their funding.



Republicans, look on the bright side -- now Romney can convincingly argue that in a round about way, Obama raised taxes on the middle class.

Romney was already saying that, but he was talking out of his ass.

chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
June 28 2012 14:35 GMT
#1004
Amy Howe: In Plain English: The Affordable Care Act, including its individual mandate that virtually all Americans buy health insurance, is constitutional. There were not five votes to uphold it on the ground that Congress could use its power to regulate commerce between the states to require everyone to buy health insurance. However, five Justices agreed that the penalty that someone must pay if he refuses to buy insurance is a kind of tax that Congress can impose using its taxing power. That is all that matters. Because the mandate survives, the Court did not need to decide what other parts of the statute were constitutional, except for a provision that required states to comply with new eligibility requirements for Medicaid or risk losing their funding. On that question, the Court held that the provision is constitutional as long as states would only lose new funds if they didn't comply with the new requirements, rather than all of their funding.


YESSSSS!
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
zerglingrodeo
Profile Joined September 2010
United States910 Posts
June 28 2012 14:36 GMT
#1005
Thank you, USA.
"This is how philosophers should salute one another: 'Take your time!'' - Wittgenstein
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
June 28 2012 14:36 GMT
#1006
@defacer: It's okay, the republicans are voting to hold Eric Holder in contempt today. It's our consolation prize.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
June 28 2012 14:37 GMT
#1007
Good ole death and taxes

Benny boy was right.
Quintum_
Profile Joined May 2011
United States669 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 14:39:01
June 28 2012 14:38 GMT
#1008
I am a little surprised that Roberts upheld it with Kennedy joining the dissenting option of the conservative side. I figured if Roberts upheld it so would Kennedy.
♠ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ ♠ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ♠ (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ ♠
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
June 28 2012 14:38 GMT
#1009
Court ruling is now out in PDF form:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
June 28 2012 14:39 GMT
#1010
good job USA
:)
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
June 28 2012 14:39 GMT
#1011
On June 28 2012 23:35 inzaneone wrote:
My two cents for what is worth How could one of the justices that before she was a on the court. She worked for the govermanent arguing for Obamacare rule on this. Is this not a breech of ethics? If you think the government knows how to run or can run heath insurance. Think again as a veteran that goes through the VA for his medical. I can tell you that is the worst thing that they you could have. The only thing its good for is a annual physical and that it. If you are sick or need something good luck getting the treatment you need since it is always at least 2 weeks before you can get in to see a medical person.


What? The government doesn't run health insurance. It's still privatized. I think you're confused on what Obamacare entails.
Hertzy
Profile Joined September 2011
Finland355 Posts
June 28 2012 14:39 GMT
#1012
On June 28 2012 23:25 Thorakh wrote:
- government makes people buy a product that's useful to everyone
- slippery slope argument "next time the government will make us buy a product that's not useful to everyone!"
- this hasn't happened in other countries where health insurance is mandatory (never has such a thing been proposed even)
- therefore it's just scaremongering

Explain how we're missing the point when I responded to the exact things which were said?


I'd also point out that this ruling hasn't established a precedent for government to make people buy something that's not useful for everyone.
My dotabuff: http://dotabuff.com/players/94774350
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
June 28 2012 14:39 GMT
#1013
On June 28 2012 23:22 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 23:20 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:18 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:16 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:15 Thorakh wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:08 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:06 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:03 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 22:51 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2012 21:43 BluePanther wrote:

It just sets a bad precedent, because if they find this legal, the next time they use this method it may not be on a product as useful to everyone.

Every other advanced country in the world has universal healthcare. So how bad is the precedent really?

As has been explained ad nauseum throughout the thread, this isn't just about healthcare. In fact, this case isn't really about healthcare at all.

I'm disagreeing with his argument which IS about healthcare, and in particular the precedent that it sets. If you don't want to argue about this point, then stop talking.

No, his argument is not about healthcare. Go re-read it again: "It just sets a bad precedent, because if they find this legal, the next time they use this method it may not be on a product as useful to everyone."
We in the Netherlands have to buy health insurance. Never has something been proposed that makes us buy a product that is not useful to everyone. You're just scare mongering.

You're missing the point so badly that it is hilarious.

That is exactly the point. It's an argument about precedents. The argument wasn't based on whether it was constitutional or whether it's good public policy. The argument was that this is a slippery slope, but it's never been a slippery slope in any other country with universal coverage.


Whoa there, in my country we have to buy candy every few days for our children. That's some terrible policy there bro.


On June 28 2012 23:20 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:18 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:16 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:15 Thorakh wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:08 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:06 paralleluniverse wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:03 xDaunt wrote:
On June 28 2012 22:51 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
Every other advanced country in the world has universal healthcare. So how bad is the precedent really?

As has been explained ad nauseum throughout the thread, this isn't just about healthcare. In fact, this case isn't really about healthcare at all.

I'm disagreeing with his argument which IS about healthcare, and in particular the precedent that it sets. If you don't want to argue about this point, then stop talking.

No, his argument is not about healthcare. Go re-read it again: "It just sets a bad precedent, because if they find this legal, the next time they use this method it may not be on a product as useful to everyone."
We in the Netherlands have to buy health insurance. Never has something been proposed that makes us buy a product that is not useful to everyone. You're just scare mongering.

You're missing the point so badly that it is hilarious.

That is exactly the point. It's an argument about precedents. The argument wasn't based on whether it was constitutional or whether it's good public policy. The argument was that this is a slippery slope, but it's never been a slippery slope in any other country with universal coverage.

You're still missing the point, too, apparently.


Look, if people are missing the point, please explain it to them. >.> I'm pretty sure they took the quoted words exactly as it reads.

I did repeatedly. I'm tired of wasting my breath on people that aren't interested in learning anything.


Wait.....I don't understand. If the original person who started this is saying it sets a bad precedent because they could use this tax policy to force people to buy something not as useful.....and the people are saying that it's unlikely to happen...how are they missing the point?
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
June 28 2012 14:40 GMT
#1014
On June 28 2012 23:35 inzaneone wrote:
My two cents for what is worth How could one of the justices that before she was a on the court. She worked for the govermanent arguing for Obamacare rule on this. Is this not a breech of ethics? If you think the government knows how to run or can run heath insurance. Think again as a veteran that goes through the VA for his medical. I can tell you that is the worst thing that they you could have. The only thing its good for is a annual physical and that it. If you are sick or need something good luck getting the treatment you need since it is always at least 2 weeks before you can get in to see a medical person.


It's two weeks because there are other people that have to be admitted during those two weeks. They don't intentionally make you wait for two weeks for no reason at all.

Queues are obviously not ideal and can even be fatal in a number of cases, but there is literally no other way for everyone to get the medical attention they need.
inzaneone
Profile Joined December 2010
United States18 Posts
June 28 2012 14:41 GMT
#1015
Obamacare makes me have to buy insurance or face a penalty which is still extremely bad policy. if i were to buy insurance right now i would be spending money that i can't afford. don't know where the money tree is going to come from people to pay for it. they should have shoved it right back up obama's ass. since he is not my president
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 14:45:42
June 28 2012 14:42 GMT
#1016
Disappointed but not suprised.

Looks like they bought the argument that choosing to opt-out of commerce is not considered commerce.

But that basically does not matter because the government can tax you anyway.

Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 14:45:43
June 28 2012 14:42 GMT
#1017
"Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority. Congress already possesses expansive power to regulate what people do. Upholding the Affordable Care Act under the Commerce Clausewould give Congress the same license to regulate what people do notdo. The Framers knew the difference between doing something and doing nothing. They gave Congress the power to regulate commerce, not to compel it. Ignoring that distinction would undermine the principle that the Federal Government is a government of limited andenumerated powers. The individual mandate thus cannot be sustained under Congress’s power to “regulate Commerce.” Pp. 16–27."

Important paragraph from the written ruling. Fearmongerers, you can take a breath.

"(b)
Such an analysis suggests that the shared responsibilitypayment may for constitutional purposes be considered a tax. The payment is not so high that there is really no choice but to buy healthinsurance; the payment is not limited to willful violations, as penalties for unlawful acts often are; and the payment is collected solely by the IRS through the normal means of taxation. Cf. Bailey v. Drexel Furniture Co., 259 U. S. 20, 36–37. None of this is to say that payment is not intended to induce the purchase of health insurance. But the mandate need not be read to declare that failing to do so is unlawful. Neither the Affordable Care Act nor any other law attaches negative legal consequences to not buying health insurance, beyond requiring a payment to the IRS. And Congress’s choice of language—stating that individuals “shall” obtain insurance or pay a “penalty”—does not require reading §5000A as punishing unlawful conduct. It may also be read as imposing a tax on those who go without insurance. See New York v. United States, 505 U. S. 144, 169–174. Pp. 35–40."


Another important one explaining how it can be viewed as a tax.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
June 28 2012 14:43 GMT
#1018
On June 28 2012 23:41 inzaneone wrote:
Obamacare makes me have to buy insurance or face a penalty.


It's not a pentalty anymore... It's a Tax.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
June 28 2012 14:44 GMT
#1019
Hooray for the U.S.A.

Finally some progress.
rredtooth
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
5464 Posts
June 28 2012 14:44 GMT
#1020
fuck yeah
[formerly sponsored by the artist formerly known as Gene]
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