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The Affordable Healthcare Act in the U.S. Supreme Court -…

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This topic is not about the American Invasion of Iraq. Stop. - Page 23
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
June 28 2012 15:02 GMT
#1041
Amy Howe: From the beginning of the Chief's opinion: "We do not consider whether the Act embodies sound policies. That judgment is entrusted to the Nation's elected leaders. We ask only whether Congress has the power under the Constitution to enact the challenged provisions."


Nailed it. I don't agree with the healthcare law in the slightest, but I think the SC did the right thing here.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
June 28 2012 15:02 GMT
#1042
There are states with universal healthcare right? Doesn't Hawaii have universal healthcare? "Floods of poor people" sounds like blatant fearmongering.
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
June 28 2012 15:05 GMT
#1043
On June 28 2012 23:43 RCMDVA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 23:41 inzaneone wrote:
Obamacare makes me have to buy insurance or face a penalty.


It's not a pentalty anymore... It's a Tax.


Depends on who you're talking to.

Obama was adamant in his 2010, iirc, interview with George Stefanopolis (sp) that it was NOT a tax.

I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
June 28 2012 15:07 GMT
#1044
Roberts thought this one through. By reinforcing it is a tax he puts this thing back into the political arena. If anything this clarified the terms of the debate. The descision makes for a MUCH more interesting Nov election.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
June 28 2012 15:07 GMT
#1045
@joedaddy: Yes he was, which is funny, because the healthcare lawyer said it actually was a tax. But only if it wasn't a mandate. SC decided to agree with the HC lawyer, and declared it was a tax, and was therefore legal. Can't wait to see Romney run with that one.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
June 28 2012 15:10 GMT
#1046
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf

Roberts' opinion seems to be entirely based on legal arguments and precedents.

I like Ginsburg's opinion because in addition to that she lays out the economic case for why Obamacare is needed. Which is what really matters in terms of good and effective public policy. It's reads like an argument that a economist would make.
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
June 28 2012 15:10 GMT
#1047
On June 29 2012 00:05 Joedaddy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 23:43 RCMDVA wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:41 inzaneone wrote:
Obamacare makes me have to buy insurance or face a penalty.


It's not a pentalty anymore... It's a Tax.


Depends on who you're talking to.

Obama was adamant in his 2010, iirc, interview with George Stefanopolis (sp) that it was NOT a tax.



Yep, I know.

But as of 1 hour ago... it is now officially a Tax.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 28 2012 15:10 GMT
#1048
Anyway, here's the bright side for all of those disappointed by the result. The Court more or less announced the right rules. In fact, federal power was significantly constrained today, notwithstanding the contortions done to uphold the mandate as a tax.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
June 28 2012 15:11 GMT
#1049
On June 29 2012 00:05 Joedaddy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 23:43 RCMDVA wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:41 inzaneone wrote:
Obamacare makes me have to buy insurance or face a penalty.


It's not a pentalty anymore... It's a Tax.


Depends on who you're talking to.

Obama was adamant in his 2010, iirc, interview with George Stefanopolis (sp) that it was NOT a tax.


If the Supreme Court says it's a tax, then legally it is a tax.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
June 28 2012 15:11 GMT
#1050
On June 29 2012 00:02 DoubleReed wrote:
There are states with universal healthcare right? Doesn't Hawaii have universal healthcare? "Floods of poor people" sounds like blatant fearmongering.


I'm not familiar with Hawaii's healthcare, if it does. Assuming it does, I question what qualifications bring people under Hawaii's coverage, such as period of residency. Also, it's quite a bit more expensive to get to Hawaii than any other state. It isn't such a burden to find a liberal state near you, such as California, Wisconsin, Illinois, or New York. New Jersey's poor will, for sure, be using New York's medicaid, since Gov. Christie won't be expanding his State's medicaid coverage, as one example.
JoelB
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 15:12:29
June 28 2012 15:11 GMT
#1051
Congratulations Obama. You have brought your country a little step closer to the the civilized world again. I cannot even imagine what would happen in Germany if someone would go to court against healthcare because it is a unfair for the healthy people to pay for the unhealthy and calls that communism oO. This country and those people are still a mystery to me.
menaceko
Profile Joined May 2012
United States58 Posts
June 28 2012 15:13 GMT
#1052

I don't want to live in this country anymore.... all it has become is big government that over spends... if I wanted to live in a socialist state(or on the verge of it) I would go back in time and move to the Soviet Union.


Wish there were real Justices in the Supreme Court not old people who dress as one... it's a joke, a mockery of our constitution what they did today.

God help us all.
BW: Nal_rA, JangBi, Grape, Stork, Brave, Bisu, mini, Horang2, BeSt, Movie, Jaehoon, Pusan, Kal, Shuttle, Reach, Anytime SC2: PartinG, Squirtle. HerO, NonY, MaNa, MC, HuK, SaSe, WhiteRa, Genius, Inori, Oz, ToD, JYP, KilleR(SangHo), VINES, TAiLS, NaNiwa
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 15:14:37
June 28 2012 15:14 GMT
#1053
On June 29 2012 00:10 xDaunt wrote:
Anyway, here's the bright side for all of those disappointed by the result. The Court more or less announced the right rules. In fact, federal power was significantly constrained today, notwithstanding the contortions done to uphold the mandate as a tax.

Contorted?

The text of a statute can sometimes have more than one possible meaning. To take a familiar example, a law that reads “no vehicles in the park” might, or might not, ban bicycles in the park. And it is well established that if a statute has two possible meanings, one of which violates the Constitution, courts should adopt the meaning thatdoes not do so. Justice Story said that 180 years ago: “No court ought, unless the terms of an act rendered it unavoidable, to give a construction to it which should involve a violation, however unintentional, of the constitution.” Parsons v. Bedford, 3 Pet. 433, 448–449 (1830). Justice Holmes made the same point a century later: “[T]he rule issettled that as between two possible interpretations of a statute, by one of which it would be unconstitutional and by the other valid, our plain duty is to adopt that whichwill save the Act.” Blodgett v. Holden, 275 U. S. 142, 148 (1927) (concurring opinion).


Pg 37: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf

The bright side is that a good economic and healthcare policy was upheld.
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
June 28 2012 15:14 GMT
#1054
On June 28 2012 23:57 Kaitlin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 23:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:50 Kaitlin wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:47 Kaitlin wrote:
Don't underestimate the importance of the Medicaid part being struck down. States can "opt out" of the expanded Medicaid portion, and many States will. This will leave the "poor" in those States without coverage in those states. This will create a flood of poor into the more liberal states and will blow up their budgets.


How will it create a flood of poor people? They aren't going to just magically lift up and move to a better location. If they were capable of doing that they already would have.


If they have Health Care in one state, but not another, what do you think will happen ?


You are completely failing to understand how reality works. First off, it is incredibly difficult to move. You need money, time, and resources to uplift yourself (and very likely some family/dependents) from where you live and find another place to go. Second, you need to be able to actually find a place to live and work. Third, this means leaving your family, friends, community, and culture behind. Healthcare will definitely not prompt the masses to suddenly leave these states.


I'm sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. The people on their way to liberal states won't be leaving any jobs behind, nor will they be seeking jobs in their new states. Only welfare and health care. It won't be any harder to relocate from state to state than it is to move from Mexico to the U.S., will it ?

People moving to the US from Mexico are doing it for the jobs. In fact immigrants aren't eligible for welfare until they have lived here for 5 years.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/286981/gop-candidates-betray-spirit-reagan-immigration-daniel-griswold
menaceko
Profile Joined May 2012
United States58 Posts
June 28 2012 15:14 GMT
#1055
On June 29 2012 00:11 JoelB wrote:
Congratulations Obama. You have brought your country a little step closer to the the civilized world again. I cannot even imagine what would happen in Germany if someone would go to court against healthcare because it is a unfair for the healthy people to pay for the unhealthy and calls that communism oO. This country and those people are still a mystery to me.



'because it is a unfair for the healthy people to pay for the unhealthy and calls that communism'

How is it not...? You foreigners are a mystery to me, you like paying for other peoples expenses? The people that sit at home and do fuck all and expect to get money? Stop talking moron.
BW: Nal_rA, JangBi, Grape, Stork, Brave, Bisu, mini, Horang2, BeSt, Movie, Jaehoon, Pusan, Kal, Shuttle, Reach, Anytime SC2: PartinG, Squirtle. HerO, NonY, MaNa, MC, HuK, SaSe, WhiteRa, Genius, Inori, Oz, ToD, JYP, KilleR(SangHo), VINES, TAiLS, NaNiwa
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
June 28 2012 15:17 GMT
#1056
On June 29 2012 00:14 Signet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2012 23:57 Kaitlin wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:50 Kaitlin wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On June 28 2012 23:47 Kaitlin wrote:
Don't underestimate the importance of the Medicaid part being struck down. States can "opt out" of the expanded Medicaid portion, and many States will. This will leave the "poor" in those States without coverage in those states. This will create a flood of poor into the more liberal states and will blow up their budgets.


How will it create a flood of poor people? They aren't going to just magically lift up and move to a better location. If they were capable of doing that they already would have.


If they have Health Care in one state, but not another, what do you think will happen ?


You are completely failing to understand how reality works. First off, it is incredibly difficult to move. You need money, time, and resources to uplift yourself (and very likely some family/dependents) from where you live and find another place to go. Second, you need to be able to actually find a place to live and work. Third, this means leaving your family, friends, community, and culture behind. Healthcare will definitely not prompt the masses to suddenly leave these states.


I'm sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. The people on their way to liberal states won't be leaving any jobs behind, nor will they be seeking jobs in their new states. Only welfare and health care. It won't be any harder to relocate from state to state than it is to move from Mexico to the U.S., will it ?

People moving to the US from Mexico are doing it for the jobs. In fact immigrants aren't eligible for welfare until they have lived here for 5 years.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/286981/gop-candidates-betray-spirit-reagan-immigration-daniel-griswold


Before or after the "Medicaid Expansion" of this Act ?
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 15:22:19
June 28 2012 15:18 GMT
#1057
On June 29 2012 00:13 menaceko wrote:

I don't want to live in this country anymore.... all it has become is big government that over spends... if I wanted to live in a socialist state(or on the verge of it) I would go back in time and move to the Soviet Union.


Wish there were real Justices in the Supreme Court not old people who dress as one... it's a joke, a mockery of our constitution what they did today.

God help us all.

Overspending is an invalid argument.

Obamacare reduces the deficit.

[image loading]
Source: CBO
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
June 28 2012 15:19 GMT
#1058
Oh man this is so interesting.

So can anyone say who are the normal 'liberal' and the normal 'conservative' judges are and which way they voted?
JoelB
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 15:23:21
June 28 2012 15:20 GMT
#1059
On June 29 2012 00:14 menaceko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2012 00:11 JoelB wrote:
Congratulations Obama. You have brought your country a little step closer to the the civilized world again. I cannot even imagine what would happen in Germany if someone would go to court against healthcare because it is a unfair for the healthy people to pay for the unhealthy and calls that communism oO. This country and those people are still a mystery to me.



'because it is a unfair for the healthy people to pay for the unhealthy and calls that communism'

How is it not...? You foreigners are a mystery to me, you like paying for other peoples expenses? The people that sit at home and do fuck all and expect to get money? Stop talking moron.


Hahahaha the Redneck strikes again. You have to learn the differences. If someone sufferes from cancer suddenly and cannot pay the bills by himself because he works and but doesnt earn enough money to do so? Even if he doesn't have a job, maybe because of bad luck? Yes, iam totally willing. There is a difference between mindless cede of lazy people and the rules of a social economy. You call this communism, we call it christian altruism and we are proud of it. Its a big part of the structure of our culture and economy and as far as per capita values are concerned it owns yours. Thx bye bye.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18843 Posts
June 28 2012 15:21 GMT
#1060
Well, I woke up to quite a pleasant surprise, and I'm not talking the result. Reading through the decision, I'm delighted with what both Ginsburg and Roberts have to say. I am suddenly very reassured by what Scotus has put out.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
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