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This discusssion is stupid! Just vote for the ideas you think may change ur contry, believe in the person you vote for. I've studied the elections system in USA in class and i've been in 2 americans family for 4 month. It's like people only think about themselves, their little life, their family, their social place is all for them. It's just the consequence of letting some fucking liberal guys (the religious thing is so funny, it's like they can do what they want as long as they pray! lol they should read more about the holy book) govern ur country. I'm not afraid of writing that all the republicans are rotten to the core. I'm not afraid of writting that the model ur republicans created is as bad as communism in URSS. It's speculation that can make country fall like Greece (thx goldman sax) and traders. Ur republicans are heads of compagnies and it's not possible to govern like that, u cant make properr decision like that. They only act for USA economy not for their people. You know i would have been glad if Obama was president of France. I see all the critics about him about being indecisive and that's so funny. He passed more laws than Bush and still people aint happy about it. The congres has never been with him since the beginning. And with the pressure of all these compagnies changement is a dream. The thing i know for sure is that american should get out of their shitty place and try to meet people from other social classes and i've never seen that ever on tv or in real life. Voting in USA is just about if u want things to change (democrate) or not (republicans).
Sorry if i was excessive and i ain't taking my country as an exemple but it's still way better than how USA works.
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On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:On March 02 2012 04:30 SimDawg wrote:On March 02 2012 04:24 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:21 SimDawg wrote:
[quote]
This is ridiculous. Do you realize a little over 50% of the voting population actually voted in 2008? An historic election, about 55% of people voted.
Who knows what the other 45% was doing or even if they should be voting, because I don't want uneducated people just pressing buttons. But if you don't think 45% of the population can change the direction of the country you're happily deluded and living in a conspiracy theorist's life.
I do realize that about half the eligible voters here don't vote, yes. I don't think it changes what I said. So you just wanted to rant instead of talking about trying to actually make a difference? My bad. I misunderstood. I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making.
Like I've said multiple times.... to have influence at the national level you need to do 1 of 2 things
1. Have track record either as a candidate or a staffer working at the state level for a number of years (and the county level before that in many cases) So people will fund your campaign (Obama Method, if you will) Note that this does not involve you being personally wealthy, or you being put in the pocket of some mogul/billionaire
2. Have a ton of money from personal success in the private sector (the Mitt Romney, method if you will) to fund your own campaign
If you want to argue about whether or not money should be involved in politics, i see no point, it has been and will be forever.
Now by talking about policy making you are changing the ball game from elections to actual administration and legislation. I feel like that is worthy of a separate thread. But in a line, I agree, Lobbying in its current form is disgusting and actively impedes any governmental progress.
But as far as elections go, you do not need to be independently wealthy to win elections, even at the national level. Yes, will need some semblance of personal success, just like in literally every other field, but top .1%er wealth is not needed, even at the national level.
Plenty of congressmen/women are not millionaires is the main point I'm making I suppose. And are not backed by millionaires either.
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People vote because they are acting irrationally. This is not only belied by economic analysis of elections and the power of a marginal vote, but also by the fact that people vote one way and then routinely act in was that contradict voting.
Example: Smoker votes for candidate who campaigns on banning smoking.
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On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:On March 02 2012 04:30 SimDawg wrote:On March 02 2012 04:24 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
I do realize that about half the eligible voters here don't vote, yes. I don't think it changes what I said.
So you just wanted to rant instead of talking about trying to actually make a difference? My bad. I misunderstood. I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote.
I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level.
I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad.
I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that.
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On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:On March 02 2012 04:30 SimDawg wrote:On March 02 2012 04:24 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
I do realize that about half the eligible voters here don't vote, yes. I don't think it changes what I said.
So you just wanted to rant instead of talking about trying to actually make a difference? My bad. I misunderstood. I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote.
Hehe, I tried to address his comment for subtlety, but yea you are basically right
Politics moves from bottom up, if you aren't willing to get in on the ground floor how the fuck to expect to reach the top?
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On March 02 2012 05:19 -Duderino- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:06 forgottendreams wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 -Duderino- wrote:On March 02 2012 04:48 sevencck wrote:On March 02 2012 04:45 -Duderino- wrote:On March 02 2012 04:38 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 -Duderino- wrote:
People in the U.S vote because thier individual vote doesnt matter but the American vote as a whole does. We vote because we feel we owe it to our fellow Americans who have the same believes as us.
All the bashing of the American political system is so overblown. Yes it is chaotic and yes money and lobbying does influence it, BUT our political system has made us hands down the greatest country the world has ever seen and probally ever will. The American politcal system has given all Americans so much opportunity, freedom and wealth that the biggest politcal arguements of the day are based on gay rights and religon lol.
Americans have so little problems that are biggest concern when voting is "what do they think about gay marriage" lol like a totally pointless topic, or "what is your plans for fixing these other countries like afghanistan iran and iraq", its not what is your plan for preventing American starvation or any of the other basic problems that many countries still face. So yes our system is a little crazy but until some other country comes close to besting it (which I strongly believe will not be in my lifetime), I will happily cast my useless vote and be proud to be an American. I like lots of things about America, but I'd be careful about calling us the 'greatest country the world has ever seen'. I actually feel that America has only given 'so much opportunity, freedom, and wealth' to a certain few. Lots of Americans have problems that aren't little, including starvation. My significant other is a social worker. Every day she is with people who are starving, ill and cannot receive care, and any number of problems that go along with being poor. These problems exist here. And it easily proven that America is the best country I agree America is a great nation in many ways, but there are many great nations. I'd be interested in hearing your proof. You would have to give me awhile to write good report on why America is the greatest, But if you just look at some basic facts that I don't have citations for: American has to be the largest supplier of world aid, It helped win many a war for the better, It was just recently passed by china as the world largest producer but china has like 5 times as many peeps, Probaly still is the worlds largest consumer, we export are culture worldwide with our styles in music and movies and tv being copied by billions, No other country comes close to exporting freedom like the U.S we will give American lifes for chance of allowing peeps in other countries to live free, we have probaly contributed the most to science and technology, I can go on and on but the point i want to make is forieners should have a lil gratitude for america because no matter where they are from they are affected by america daily even if in an indirect way. And I cant even think of what other country would give the U.S a run for its money Britain mabye but I think we proved what country was better with the revolution, Germany? they blew ther chance wit hitler, China? they blew ther chance many a time, Japan? lol you see when you look at just the history of countires let alone there stance today noone holds the moral compass of the united states, and you can point several incidnets like slavery and vietnam but the united states has made amends and admitted its mistakes and you could even make an arguement that native americans and the vietnamese are better off today then they would have been witout the U.S. So point is get out and vote kids ^^ LOL. Not only are you demanding "foreigners" have gratitude but you believe we "export freedom"? We export any and all regimes to achieve global political goals. Furthermore at the very bottom you leave a great ending "native americans and vietnamese are better off today". Lol? We gave Native Americans liquor, diseases and holed them into tiny plots of land without even full sovereignty with values completely alien to them (AKA many natives valued social capital rather than financial capital). This is simply one of the most embarrassing posts I've ever read. I'm patriotic but for realistic reasons, not fairytale reasons. Yes we export freedom and I can spend 5 min thinking up a hundred examples if you want, Obviously we do it to benefit ourselves but it is freedom nonetheless, You can say we started a war in Iraq for oil or wateva, but the end result?? Millions of Iraqis have more freedom today than they did under saddam hussien, ask any kurd if they believe america exports freedom and you will get a resounding yes. We export regimes for our politcal goals, but our politcal goals are largely based on freedom and saftey for the world, we prevented communist and terrorism while exporting freedom. Yes its a stretch they are better off today but an argument can be made. native americans have medicine and technology that would not be close to having without the U.S. And im not an expert on the vietnam war but they very well could be better off if we had just let communism take over unhidered, maby the soviet union would still be wrecking havoc without the vietnam war. And the thing is these are like the only 2 negatives that anti americans always choose to bash while ignoring the overwhelming amount of good the United States has done for the world. Futhermore you should be ashamed for bashing your country, do you realise what it has done for you? Do you realise what your life would be like had you been born in china? Do you realise that the United States has treated you so well that you get to have a spoiled delusional opinion on why your country is so bad? And wats your deal dude? this is post was embarrasing to you? I love the U.S and im proud to stand up for it lol
I am sure there are thousands of kids in iraq, afghanistan, vietnam etc etc etc ... who have lost their parents, but are really fucking glad you brought them democracy ( in exchange for impoverishing the country, stealing oil etc ... ). I am not so sure about native americans tho because if it wasn't for you they probably wouldn't have had many of those diseases in the first place, therefore not needing your medical help, or your technology for that matters, for i am certain they were just as happy if not more without it . Also, i doubt they're very happy about the fact that you literally decimated them.
I am also certain that nuking japan twice, killing thousands of innocents civilians and turning those who were not fortunate enough to be killed on the spot into monsters, did not exactly please them.
I honestly don't know about freedom and democracy, i doubt it really makes that big of a difference when you indebt most countries who have something you want, but i'm pretty sure anyone with a brain would agree on how freaking disgusting your methods are, i mean, lying to the world and your people is one thing, sending your people to die in another country to increase the wealth of a small percentage of the population is another thing ( i mean you guys don't have a mandatory military service like south korea, people CHOOSE to be in the army ) but planning terrorist attacks on your own people to start a war, that's like really bad fucking news for your people. But maybe you're one of those who belive operation northwoods is a lie and the tonkin incident really happened.
I'm out of here.
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You vote for congressmen, and that doesn't use the electoral college (which is not run like it used to be)... your vote matters there. Honestly, if you read Tocqueville and others, you'd realize it exactly as Zalz said. It's people that don't care. Now we find ourselves in a hard position that will take time to get out of, but it's our own fault. Over the years we've let politicians cross the boundaries of their authority because it was easy, they promised things, etc. The founding and running of America was based on an active, politically literate and involved people. Now, we are lazy.
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On March 02 2012 05:40 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:On March 02 2012 04:30 SimDawg wrote:
[quote]
So you just wanted to rant instead of talking about trying to actually make a difference? My bad. I misunderstood.
I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote. I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level. I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad. I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that.
What you are doing is saying 1 vote doesnt matter at a national level
Then I say, yes I agree but YOU can matter at the national level if you work REALLY hard. Or you can matter at the county level if you work kinda hard.
Then you respond- Yes Of course I could have an impact locally but I can't nationally.
Then I respond, yes you can have an impact nationally by either working really hard in politics or working really hard in something else so you have the money to jump into national politics
Then you respond You don't want to work really hard and are mad that money is the only other way you can have influence, basically assuming people just wake up as multi millionaires.
Your argument is flawed because you are 1 assuming people are just rich cuz they are rich (which of course some are, but most worked really hard) and 2. because you refuse to accept that most national politicians started as local politicians
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On March 02 2012 05:40 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:On March 02 2012 04:30 SimDawg wrote:
[quote]
So you just wanted to rant instead of talking about trying to actually make a difference? My bad. I misunderstood.
I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote. I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level. I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad. I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that.
No, my analogy applies perfectly. If the system is bad, (see: sweatshops, money ruling politics, two party system, whatever floats your boat), and I am aware that I could make some minute change (see: not buy from sweatshop brands, vote for candidates who don't accept corporate money, vote for a party which will restrict campaign finance, etc), but choose not to because I believe the system won't change (sweatshops will still exist, politics will always be ruled by money), then I'm an asshat.
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On March 02 2012 05:39 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:On March 02 2012 04:30 SimDawg wrote:On March 02 2012 04:24 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
I do realize that about half the eligible voters here don't vote, yes. I don't think it changes what I said.
So you just wanted to rant instead of talking about trying to actually make a difference? My bad. I misunderstood. I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. Like I've said multiple times.... to have influence at the national level you need to do 1 of 2 things 1. Have track record either as a candidate or a staffer working at the state level for a number of years (and the county level before that in many cases) So people will fund your campaign (Obama Method, if you will) Note that this does not involve you being personally wealthy, or you being put in the pocket of some mogul/billionaire 2. Have a ton of money from personal success in the private sector (the Mitt Romney, method if you will) to fund your own campaign If you want to argue about whether or not money should be involved in politics, i see no point, it has been and will be forever. Now by talking about policy making you are changing the ball game from elections to actual administration and legislation. I feel like that is worthy of a separate thread. But in a line, I agree, Lobbying in its current form is disgusting and actively impedes any governmental progress. But as far as elections go, you do not need to be independently wealthy to win elections, even at the national level. Yes, will need some semblance of personal success, just like in literally every other field, but top .1%er wealth is not needed, even at the national level. Plenty of congressmen/women are not millionaires is the main point I'm making I suppose. And are not backed by millionaires either.
I'm not claiming that you must be personally wealthy to be elected, but that the wealthy will pump money into your campaign if it serves their interests ---> Religion funds candidate who reflects their views, like when the LDS church paid millions a couple of years back to help kill a same-sex marriage bill in California.
To summarize again, I feel that regardless of who I vote for, regardless of who wins, it is all the same. People who are very wealthy, and have probably had the money for generations, will continue to fund campaigns, lobbyists, and assorted organizations to serve their own interest.
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On March 02 2012 05:45 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:40 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote. I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level. I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad. I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that. No, my analogy applies perfectly. If the system is bad, (see: sweatshops, money ruling politics, two party system, whatever floats your boat), and I am aware that I could make some minute change (see: not buy from sweatshop brands, vote for candidates who don't accept corporate money, vote for a party which will restrict campaign finance, etc), but choose not to because I believe the system won't change (sweatshops will still exist, politics will always be ruled by money), then I'm an asshat.
Please be nice. The reason it doesn't apply is because my arguments are the same no matter who I vote for, no matter who wins. Democrat or Republican, in the end it will still (in my opinion) a system controlled by wealth.
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On March 02 2012 05:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:45 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:40 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:
[quote]
Civic duty?
What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference"
Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort.
I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote?
The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile.
You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero.
The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America
Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote. I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level. I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad. I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that. No, my analogy applies perfectly. If the system is bad, (see: sweatshops, money ruling politics, two party system, whatever floats your boat), and I am aware that I could make some minute change (see: not buy from sweatshop brands, vote for candidates who don't accept corporate money, vote for a party which will restrict campaign finance, etc), but choose not to because I believe the system won't change (sweatshops will still exist, politics will always be ruled by money), then I'm an asshat. Please be nice. The reason it doesn't apply is because my arguments are the same no matter who I vote for, no matter who wins. Democrat or Republican, in the end it will still (in my opinion) a system controlled by wealth.
You already admitted that you could make a difference on the local level. And the local level has power. If you want to believe that the power narrative offered by CNN and FOX is how our country is actually run then you're not living in the real world. Stop thinking about national politics. You have power. Get off your ass and vote.
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On March 02 2012 05:45 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:40 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:46 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:33 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
I don't think he started this thread with the intent of solving the growing problem of voter apathy in the US. He's asking WHY people vote, as in, people who do choose to vote, why do you choose to do so? Civic duty? What bothers me is the OP is basically saying "I'm unsatisfied with how much my vote matters!!!!" "if I'm not super rich my vote doesn't matter!!!" All I hear is "I'm too lazy to make a difference" Like, Warren Buffet's 1 vote counts as much as yours. Warren Buffet holds influence because he puts a lot of effort into it. Money is of course the easiest way to exert effort on the political system, but it is not the only way. Be a community organizer, convince 100 people to vote for the guy you believe in... boom now you have the power of 101 votes instead of one, because you put in some effort. I see voting as the final, and easiest, step in a campaign. Since I've put in so much effort over the past X months campaigning or at least being an active observer in the process, why wouldn't I vote? The OP also sounds mad that he doesn't live in a battle ground state, and because of this feels powerless when once every 4 years a presidential election occurs and his state is a NC. Instead of sitting and complaining why don't you work during those 4 years to change the landscape of your state? MAKE your state a battleground state. Start by getting your party in at the state level, try and win an open Rep. Election (you'll never beat incumbents). Politics work from the ground up. The states that were battle ground states 20 years ago may not be so today; just because the landscapes change slowly doesn't mean it is immobile. You can make a change, if you start small and work hard. That applies at every level. Do you think Obama's people thought he had a fucking chance in hell in 06? Hell no, he was a community organizer with State senate experience, and 1 term as a US senator. That is NOT a resume for a presidential candidate. And he won! He took down Hilary in the primary who had an order of magnitude more experience at the Federal Executive level, and he took down McCain in the general who has decades in the senate and is a decorated war hero. The only people who think politics in America are Immobile, are people who don't follow politics in America Furthermore, the vast majority of campaign contributions are from small donors (less than ~$200$ I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP]. I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out. And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote. I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level. I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad. I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that. What you are doing is saying 1 vote doesnt matter at a national level Then I say, yes I agree but YOU can matter at the national level if you work REALLY hard. Or you can matter at the county level if you work kinda hard. Then you respond- Yes Of course I could have an impact locally but I can't nationally. Then I respond, yes you can have an impact nationally by either working really hard in politics or working really hard in something else so you have the money to jump into national politics Then you respond You don't want to work really hard and are mad that money is the only other way you can have influence, basically assuming people just wake up as multi millionaires. Your argument is flawed because you are 1 assuming people are just rich cuz they are rich (which of course some are, but most worked really hard) and 2. because you refuse to accept that most national politicians started as local politicians
I do work hard, thank you very much  I did not say that 'i don't want to work really hard'. I said that even if I were to dedicate my life to being the best damn politician I could be, I would still not change the fact that wealth controls all in politics. Somebody brought up Marco Rubio earlier as an example of a hard working, honest politician. He's great, but the system remains unchanged.
I feel like you're accusing me of apathy unless I dedicate my life to becoming a politician.
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On March 02 2012 05:22 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:18 zalz wrote:
Pathetic.
This is what people literally gave their life for? People took up arms and gave their life for the right to determine their own destiny. People believed that the right for the people to rule over their own country was so important that they were willing to fight and die for it.
Que this generation.
I hate bashing on the "new" generation like some 20 year old wanna-be-grandpa, but damn it if I don't like to be a hypocrite.
This trend has been on the rise for a while now. People have begun to confuse cynicism for intelligence. The darkest, most grim opinion is considered the most accurate, the most well informed. Surely our world must be corrupted at the core. Surely the termites are eating the foundation from under us.
We want the world to be shit so we gravitate towards the most cynic view and proclaim it to be the height of intelligence.
Tell me, what do you people even do? Stop pretending like you are some crusader for democracy when you are sitting on your ass at home. Stop pretending like you are fighting "corruption" by sitting on your ass and not voting. Stop pretending like you are doing the right thing by sitting on your fat ass at home, crying about how everything is corrupt and actually making fun of people that go out and take part in the democratic process.
I must applaud this new generation for how they have turned their own laziness and idiocy into a virtue. They sit at home, decide not to vote, and then they rationlize it to themselves. Here is a wake-up call for you:
You aren't not voting because you are so smart.
You aren't not voting because you wanna stick it to the man.
You aren't not voting you believe the democractic system is a frace.
You aren't voting because you are lazy. You want to finish that game of Starcraft. You want to watch another movie. You want to watch another episode of your favorite series. Hell, you just want to look at the wall for an extra hour.
You are lazy, that is why you don't vote. The disgusting prevalence of pseudo-intellectualism is what causes this generation to justify their lazy behaviour by pretending it to be the height of political resistance. It is like the conspiracy theorist that pretends he is so smart, simply because he doesn't watch the news, instead reading some tinfoil blog once a week that tells him the Illuminati is still out there.
And it doesn't extent to just voting. You begin to convince yourself the entire system is a farce. You tell yourself how you are actually being a productive member of society by not reading any newspapers or watching any news.
The less you do, the smarter you feel.
Now some of you might feel offended. How dare he call me lazy, I am actively fighting for democracy by watching another episode of HIMYM instead of going out to vote.
The truth is, deep down you know you don't give a shit about politics. You don't give a shit about democracy. If you truly felt that the system was corrupt you would go out and do something about it. You would join some movement to bring attention to your issues, hell, you would start one yourself.
But you don't. You sit on your ass at home. You don't do shit and you call it activism. You pretend to care about democracy, but all you do is sit at home and feel smug for not voting.
Shame on all of you that would bury democracy out of laziness. Shame on the liars that cloak their laziness as activism.
George Orwell took a bullet to the throat in his fight against fascism. What did you do? Please be nice. I'm not claiming anything. I wrote a post that expressed my opinion on why I don't vote. I work, go to school, spend time with family/friends, and pay taxes. What do you do?
I point out how your reasoning is self-deceptive and false. The true motivation being a lack of interest in the political process, masked as political activism.
As such it was a perfectly valid response to your opinion.
Why you so hostile?
Plenty of people are informed consumers of political news. Just because we are also grown ups with lives and can't spend our time being the vocal minority (either radically preaching politics or radically denouncing the system) doesn't mean our entire generation is apathetic.
I am offended that you would post such a 1 sided rant with no basis in reality. I am democratically active AND like HIMYM, insane, I know >_>
Take off your bias and realize not much has changed since you were a 20 something. Because at the moment you just sound like an angry old man
The entire post was aimed at people that don't vote.
How could you take offense if you are actually democratically active...
I am 20ish, I also like HIMYM. Those however, were not the essentials of the post.
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On March 02 2012 05:50 viticuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:45 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:40 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:36 viticuss wrote:On March 02 2012 05:28 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:20 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:00 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:54 stokes17 wrote:On March 02 2012 04:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not mad because I don't think my vote makes a difference. In my OP, I state that is how I used to feel but now [rest of my OP].
I also have posted twice about things I can do to 'make a difference'. I explain my thoughts on how voting, protesting, or working in politics. If you see something I'm missing, please point it out.
And I probably should just leave this out, but seriously dude, if I work hard I'll turn Utah into a Democrat state? It would literally take the second coming of Christ for Utah to not vote Republican. I didn't see the 2 posts you are talking about. So you admit you can put effort into accomplishing your political goals beyond voting? Then what is your issue. Voting takes no effort, why should it have an impact disproportional to how hard it is to do? If you want to make an impact in politics get off your butt and do it, if you don't; IMO at the very least become informed and cast a ballot on election day. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, then I don't really see the use in voting; it won't hurt or anything, but its kinda a waste of time. EDIT: about turning Utah blue. Don't be naive, of course you can't MAKE IT DEMOCRAT. But you can get a democrat elected as a state rep. And then the state senate. And if he performs really well there, why not get him elected as a Federal rep. 6 years and 3 elections won later, why can't he take on an open senate election? Like it happens dude. Look at Maine. State is extremely Blue with a republican Senate. Here is a summary. I am brainstorming what average joe schmoe (me) can do to 'make a difference'. Suggestions welcome. -Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect. -Protest: What did the recent 99% protests do? Got a lot of college kids arrested and feeling good about themselves. What did my protests back in 2005 about the war in Iraq do? Not much. The only successful, large-scale example I can think of is the African-American civil rights movement, and that took tens of millions of people and 300 years. -Work in politics: I quit my career and work for a campaign/party/run for office myself. I have no money, I have no political connections. I can dedicate my life to it and work day and night, and probably make some impact, but the general system in place will be unchanged. Um, I have worked on various campaigns at the state and county level while going to university full time and working a job in the summer. I think I've helped a few people who I believe in get elected. I feel the effort I put in (like 10-15 hours a week in summer and half that during the school year... although I haven't done any work during school since freshman year) is equal to the influence I get out. There is certainly grey area between, apathetic uninformed observer and career politician.... Like yea dood if you want to be a power player in National Politics you will need to make it a career and put in probably a decade at the state level. Unless you want to rise to national prominence in another field and "make the jump." This is basically true for any field. You don't wake up with a PhD, or with a hedge fund to manage. Further just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you will get published in nationally recognized journals. You put in a ton of effort. Nothing that is powerful is easy. If you want national political Influence you need to work hard for it, either through making a ton of money in the private sector, or by getting your ass on the ground and working HARD. If you want state level influence, you need to be a successful individual who can host a fund raiser for $150-250 a head and draw ~100 people, or someone who's held a county level position for a few terms/worked on a county level campaign. You need either a track record at the level directly below where you want to run, or you need money, or you need a ton of effort (Obama style... well really Howard Dean style, but he's crazy so...) If you have no money and have no desire to put effort into it. Then you can be an informed observer. Spend an hour a day during the week (not at once, ya know 20 here, 15 here) catching up on the political news for the day. Then on the weekend familiarize yourself with concepts and issues you read about but didn't fully understand. Use multiple sources that have opposing biases. Now you can go to town hall meetings (county/state level) and ask informed questions and get people to clap for you if you really pinch a guy. At the very least you will understand the political process better. I agree I could get involved with local politics and have a noticeable impact, but my OP is talking about national elections, and the fact that money is king regarding US policy-making. What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. That's exactly analgous to saying, "well, I don't like sweatshops. And Nike uses sweatshops. But I'm just one person! Better keep buying Nikes." No. If you were actually against sweatshops and not just trying to rationalize your apathy, you'd spend the extra 10$ at a locally owned shoe store. You seem to be implying that you're at a point of reservation, you COULD make a difference, but not enough to make you feel better about yourself, or immediately cause change. And because you couldn't see the effects right in front of you today, then fuck it. People need to grow up and realize we are very very small. We won't really change much of anything in our lives. But we do have minute power. Learn to be responsible for your power in this world, no matter how little it is. vote. I'm not being ignorant, I'm pointing out that my OP is talking solely about national elections. I fully agree that my individual impact is very apparent at a local level. I don't think your analogy applies to what I'm saying. If I thought one political party was evil/sweatshop, the other good/local store, then yes, supporting the evil party = bad. I think US policy-making in general, regardless of party, is governed by money, and my vote will not influence that. No, my analogy applies perfectly. If the system is bad, (see: sweatshops, money ruling politics, two party system, whatever floats your boat), and I am aware that I could make some minute change (see: not buy from sweatshop brands, vote for candidates who don't accept corporate money, vote for a party which will restrict campaign finance, etc), but choose not to because I believe the system won't change (sweatshops will still exist, politics will always be ruled by money), then I'm an asshat. Please be nice. The reason it doesn't apply is because my arguments are the same no matter who I vote for, no matter who wins. Democrat or Republican, in the end it will still (in my opinion) a system controlled by wealth. You already admitted that you could make a difference on the local level. And the local level has power. If you want to believe that the power narrative offered by CNN and FOX is how our country is actually run then you're not living in the real world. Stop thinking about national politics. You have power. Get off your ass and vote.
Yes, I admitted it in my OP. No news there
The local level has power to maintain roads and come up with zoning laws. It doesn't stop Congressmen from passing bills that give them pay raises.
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On March 02 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Only considering national elections. President, senator, etc.
I live in the USA, and I have never voted, though I've been of age for the last three presidential elections. At first it was because I lived in a state which has always been completely lopsided for one party. I felt like my vote didn't matter, which I realize is a point that many will argue. But, fu, the fact is that my state would elect republicans for national offices no matter what, period.
In the past few years, however, my reasons have changed a bit. Now I realize that I just have no faith in the electoral system. As much as I hate sounding like a long-boarding, clove-smoking,, hipster douche, I feel like the fact of the matter is that the wealthy elite of the country really do control everything. Business moguls and celebrities become senators, governors, and president. Our laws, regulations, and taxes are thought up and created by people who are wealthy and powerful. They've proven time and time again that they're willing to use their position to advance their own ends.
And of course, lobbyists. Whatever company, group, or individual has the most money can trade that cash in for political influence. Oil companies wine, dine, and bribe for the rights to drill in previously protected environmental areas. Religions collect hundreds of billions annually, tax-free mind you, and then turn around and pump that money right back into congress to support bills that they find morally correct.
I know that this is nothing new. Classes have existed since the beginning of civilization. What's infuriating is that Democracy is touted as a government of the people, where decisions and policies are made based on the will of the general public.
It's not. That's why I don't vote.
Is this a blog?
Thank you for this post, it gives me an excuse to go on my political rant without picking on a particular party. The Electoral College is honestly one of the worst ideas ever invented. Even if they broke it down into counties, I live in a county that traditionally always votes the opposite way I do, so my vote still wouldn't matter. Businesses and lobbying have way too much influence on our government. The two party system is an absolute joke and prevents candidates from running on the issues and allows them to get ridiculous backing from corporations and organizations. What we need is to have a technocracy, where the experts in given fields are the ones controlling the funding to those fields. SOPA and similarly dumb legislations are due to having people in office that do not understand how the Internet and the modern world really works.
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On March 02 2012 05:53 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 05:22 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On March 02 2012 05:18 zalz wrote:
Pathetic.
This is what people literally gave their life for? People took up arms and gave their life for the right to determine their own destiny. People believed that the right for the people to rule over their own country was so important that they were willing to fight and die for it.
Que this generation.
I hate bashing on the "new" generation like some 20 year old wanna-be-grandpa, but damn it if I don't like to be a hypocrite.
This trend has been on the rise for a while now. People have begun to confuse cynicism for intelligence. The darkest, most grim opinion is considered the most accurate, the most well informed. Surely our world must be corrupted at the core. Surely the termites are eating the foundation from under us.
We want the world to be shit so we gravitate towards the most cynic view and proclaim it to be the height of intelligence.
Tell me, what do you people even do? Stop pretending like you are some crusader for democracy when you are sitting on your ass at home. Stop pretending like you are fighting "corruption" by sitting on your ass and not voting. Stop pretending like you are doing the right thing by sitting on your fat ass at home, crying about how everything is corrupt and actually making fun of people that go out and take part in the democratic process.
I must applaud this new generation for how they have turned their own laziness and idiocy into a virtue. They sit at home, decide not to vote, and then they rationlize it to themselves. Here is a wake-up call for you:
You aren't not voting because you are so smart.
You aren't not voting because you wanna stick it to the man.
You aren't not voting you believe the democractic system is a frace.
You aren't voting because you are lazy. You want to finish that game of Starcraft. You want to watch another movie. You want to watch another episode of your favorite series. Hell, you just want to look at the wall for an extra hour.
You are lazy, that is why you don't vote. The disgusting prevalence of pseudo-intellectualism is what causes this generation to justify their lazy behaviour by pretending it to be the height of political resistance. It is like the conspiracy theorist that pretends he is so smart, simply because he doesn't watch the news, instead reading some tinfoil blog once a week that tells him the Illuminati is still out there.
And it doesn't extent to just voting. You begin to convince yourself the entire system is a farce. You tell yourself how you are actually being a productive member of society by not reading any newspapers or watching any news.
The less you do, the smarter you feel.
Now some of you might feel offended. How dare he call me lazy, I am actively fighting for democracy by watching another episode of HIMYM instead of going out to vote.
The truth is, deep down you know you don't give a shit about politics. You don't give a shit about democracy. If you truly felt that the system was corrupt you would go out and do something about it. You would join some movement to bring attention to your issues, hell, you would start one yourself.
But you don't. You sit on your ass at home. You don't do shit and you call it activism. You pretend to care about democracy, but all you do is sit at home and feel smug for not voting.
Shame on all of you that would bury democracy out of laziness. Shame on the liars that cloak their laziness as activism.
George Orwell took a bullet to the throat in his fight against fascism. What did you do? Please be nice. I'm not claiming anything. I wrote a post that expressed my opinion on why I don't vote. I work, go to school, spend time with family/friends, and pay taxes. What do you do? I point out how your reasoning is self-deceptive and false. The true motivation being a lack of interest in the political process, masked as political activism. As such it was a perfectly valid response to your opinion. Show nested quote +Why you so hostile?
Plenty of people are informed consumers of political news. Just because we are also grown ups with lives and can't spend our time being the vocal minority (either radically preaching politics or radically denouncing the system) doesn't mean our entire generation is apathetic.
I am offended that you would post such a 1 sided rant with no basis in reality. I am democratically active AND like HIMYM, insane, I know >_>
Take off your bias and realize not much has changed since you were a 20 something. Because at the moment you just sound like an angry old man The entire post was aimed at people that don't vote. How could you take offense if you are actually democratically active... I am 20ish, I also like HIMYM. Those however, were not the essentials of the post.
Well first off, the second part wasn't me
Very perceptive of you to determine my 'true motivation' is a lack of interest in the political process. You must know a lot about me.
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The more authority government has, the more it promotes collusion and corruption. That is the irony of the occupy movement.
However, you can still have a large effect on things. Imagine if a huge chunk of people that had never voted started voting for a 3rd party candidate. It's just that the two parties and the media downplay and mock that stuff.
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On March 02 2012 03:16 KwarK wrote:
Statistically no one vote ever makes a difference, no major election is decided by a single vote. The argument "but if everyone thought like that then..." is meaningless because there is no connection between your choice to vote and anyone else's, if you go into the ballot room and spoil your ballot then nobody else will do anything different because of it. There is absolutely no value to voting beyond any personal gratification you get out of it.
Exactly my rationale.
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I feel like the fact of the matter is that the wealthy elite of the country really do control everything.
well if you don't vote, then you give them all the more power.
Remove the electoral college and make every vote count!
actually, by removing the electoral college, you would make the votes of many of the smaller states completely negligable. four or five states would have all the power and the other states would be completely out of luck. the electoral college actually gives the people more power.
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