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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
In context the Epstein death (sure, it might be suicide, but I'll believe that only after a thorough investigation) as the last in a series of dodgy events the last few years:
A government led by people considering themselves above the law, utilizing their position to enrich themselves and their family at the cost of the rest of the country, while also giving rise to the rebirth of fascism - isn't this what the 2nd ammendment was made for, to prevent tyrannical rule? Isn't preventing this exact thing from happening why the gun proponents claim to have their weapons?
If your population cannot field enough militiamen to this threat to your republic, and walk on Washington, you might want to re-evaluate your arguments for gun rights. If you've got a gun and you're not willing to march against the tyranny in your own back yard right now, then why do you even own it?
Sure, there's self-defense weapons, which can be kept at home. Sure, there's hunting and sports, which can be kept in a gun locker or at the club. But the rest? Either walk against tyranny, or admit you're nothing but a gun fetishist using the 2nd ammendment as a cover for your lust.
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Northern Ireland12048 Posts
On August 10 2019 22:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Disappointed no one that advocates the typical "good guy with a gun" argument has managed to clear this up. I have to say it seems like they are completely full of it if they can't.
Is there sufficient information to clear it up either way?
That aside this kind of rationale is fraught with other problems, I imagine the chances of some catastrophic intervention escalating would be much more likely in the case of a black person or person of Arabic extraction open carrying.
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On August 10 2019 22:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2019 22:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Disappointed no one that advocates the typical "good guy with a gun" argument has managed to clear this up. I have to say it seems like they are completely full of it if they can't. Is there sufficient information to clear it up either way?
There's sufficient information to opine on the available information (like Danglars did deeming the firefighter guy a "good guy with a gun" when all reports show him and the manager to have already admitted to committing crimes)
The victim isn't even accused of doing anything wrong, just a vague charge (likely to save face and pray he pleads to something minor due to the threat of worse) of "making a terrorist threat in the second degree" which has 0 chance of sticking because by the managers account he just saw him and though the would shoot people and caused a panic by pulling the fire alarm and screaming the equivalent of "fire!" in a crowded theater because he saw a law abiding gun owner (who was subsequently held hostage at gunpoint, then arrested and charged as a result).
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On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af.
The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results.
You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence.
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It does not strike you as troublesome that in your first paragraph one of the reasons you say guns are needed is a broken system, then your second paragraph is about trusting of the same broken system?
Also it is your point that if this person had a bat it would be the same level of danger as a large gun? You dont think that of the firefighter had a taser and this guy had a bat that their was way less chances of casualties?
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On August 11 2019 01:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af. The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results. You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence.
The problem with that argument is that guns aren't really "equalizers" as much as "enhancers." If guns were equalizers they would put everyone on the same level of lethality, but no matter who you give a gun to, murderer or defender, they all become more lethal.
If someone is weaker, but then you train him and you put a gun in his hand, he can defend himself against a stronger person with a knife. Strength is less of a factor or no factor.
But the same can also be said for someone with a knife.
A strong man with a knife can maybe kill/injure 1-5 people before he is exhausted from chasing them (if he can even catch one), struggling with them, or is assaulted by other people around.
That same man with training and a gun can kill 5 people in under 10 seconds, distance isn't a factor, neither is exhaustion. He can kill (as in el paso) 22 people and injure 24 (keep in mind there is no such thing as a minor gunshot wound, some of these people may never walk again or lose a limb) in a matter of a few minutes.
Give the el paso shooter a knife, maybe not even one person dies.
Keep in mind, in most of these cases we aren't even talking about smart and trained people... we are talking about potato head kids that have no fucking clue what they are doing, and still kill 22 people. Guns turn a walking potato head kid into a real life Mike Meyers (actually worse, because Mike Meyers had a knife and only killed like 5 teens in a long as night of halloween terror. Many hours of terror and few deaths).
So you're going to tell us again, guns are a good idea for defense?
That the side effect or risk of guns in American civilian society for defense is proportional to the benefit?
Real life continues to run this experiment for us all, and the results grossly show the damage outweighs the benefit.
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On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children.
If the guy in tactical gear had just opened fire without recording himself, or walking around, he would have killed how many people do you think before the firefighter was able to draw and fire?
The response time in dayton was 32 seconds, and 9 dead.
https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-shooting-dayton-ohio/
Even if his response was only 15 seconds (basically perfect shots and reactions) how many do you think would be dead by then?
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On August 11 2019 02:16 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. If the guy in tactical gear had just opened fire without recording himself, or walking around, he would have killed how many people do you think before the firefighter was able to draw and fire? The response time in dayton was 32 seconds, and 9 dead. https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-shooting-dayton-ohio/Even if his response was only 15 seconds (basically perfect shots and reactions) how many do you think would be dead by then?
Also this is some grade A American exceptionalism. Only in America would restricting firearms means that all criminals would still be able to get them but not "the good guys". Weird how the rest of the world doesn't have this problem. Even weirder that Australia a few years ago went through this exact thing, and they managed to disarm "the bad guys" pretty well.
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On August 11 2019 01:32 JimmiC wrote:
It does not strike you as troublesome that in your first paragraph one of the reasons you say guns are needed is a broken system, then your second paragraph is about trusting of the same broken system?
Also it is your point that if this person had a bat it would be the same level of danger as a large gun? You dont think that of the firefighter had a taser and this guy had a bat that their was way less chances of casualties?
I never said it was due to a broken system, so you'll have to explain and justify whatever you're using to get there.
In order: No, that is not my point, and yes, your hypothetical is true. In fact, if the entire country only were armed with their own fists, I'm sure there would be substantially less casualties.
On August 11 2019 02:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2019 01:03 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af. The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results. You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence. The problem with that argument is that guns aren't really "equalizers" as much as "enhancers." If guns were equalizers they would put everyone on the same level of lethality, but no matter who you give a gun to, murderer or defender, they all become more lethal. If someone is weaker, but then you train him and you put a gun in his hand, he can defend himself against a stronger person with a knife. Strength is less of a factor or no factor. But the same can also be said for someone with a knife. A strong man with a knife can maybe kill/injure 1-5 people before he is exhausted from chasing them (if he can even catch one), struggling with them, or is assaulted by other people around. That same man with training and a gun can kill 5 people in under 10 seconds, distance isn't a factor, neither is exhaustion. He can kill (as in el paso) 22 people and injure 24 (keep in mind there is no such thing as a minor gunshot wound, some of these people may never walk again or lose a limb) in a matter of a few minutes. Give the el paso shooter a knife, maybe not even one person dies. Keep in mind, in most of these cases we aren't even talking about smart and trained people... we are talking about potato head kids that have no fucking clue what they are doing, and still kill 22 people. Guns turn a walking potato head kid into a real life Mike Meyers (actually worse, because Mike Meyers had a knife and only killed like 5 teens in a long as night of halloween terror. Many hours of terror and few deaths). So you're going to tell us again, guns are a good idea for defense? That the side effect or risk of guns in American civilian society for defense is proportional to the benefit? Real life continues to run this experiment for us all, and the results grossly show the damage outweighs the benefit.
I don't really think there's any semantic use in not calling them equalizers just because the result is not perfect equality.
I don't see the use in indulging your comparisons to knives, since my only point would be one you already admitted: a trained but weaker man is better able to defend himself using a gun against a stronger person with a knife. That's a very good right to protect for the weak to defend themselves against the strong.
If you want me to tell you that again, I will. I certainly wouldn't be on the internet arguing for these positions if I didn't judge that the benefits outweighed the risks, both now and into future centuries. I do understand that you think the risks outweigh the benefits.
On August 11 2019 02:16 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. If the guy in tactical gear had just opened fire without recording himself, or walking around, he would have killed how many people do you think before the firefighter was able to draw and fire? The response time in dayton was 32 seconds, and 9 dead. https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-shooting-dayton-ohio/Even if his response was only 15 seconds (basically perfect shots and reactions) how many do you think would be dead by then?
I have nothing to go on for his accuracy, reload speed, or occupancy. We already know from the Orlando nightclub shooting that mass shootings can be very deadly, and from Virginia Tech, and the majority of events, that the same lethal results often come from pistols. So I can't guess your purpose in asking for my estimation of casualties, unless you want me to appear callous to death in discussing it at length, or you are under the impression that my argument relies on a number of deaths that's unacceptable from a single shooter with a semi-automatic rifle.
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On August 11 2019 02:57 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2019 01:32 JimmiC wrote:
It does not strike you as troublesome that in your first paragraph one of the reasons you say guns are needed is a broken system, then your second paragraph is about trusting of the same broken system?
Also it is your point that if this person had a bat it would be the same level of danger as a large gun? You dont think that of the firefighter had a taser and this guy had a bat that their was way less chances of casualties? I never said it was due to a broken system, so you'll have to explain and justify whatever you're using to get there. In order: No, that is not my point, and yes, your hypothetical is true. In fact, if the entire country only were armed with their own fists, I'm sure there would be substantially less casualties. Show nested quote +On August 11 2019 02:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On August 11 2019 01:03 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af. The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results. You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence. The problem with that argument is that guns aren't really "equalizers" as much as "enhancers." If guns were equalizers they would put everyone on the same level of lethality, but no matter who you give a gun to, murderer or defender, they all become more lethal. If someone is weaker, but then you train him and you put a gun in his hand, he can defend himself against a stronger person with a knife. Strength is less of a factor or no factor. But the same can also be said for someone with a knife. A strong man with a knife can maybe kill/injure 1-5 people before he is exhausted from chasing them (if he can even catch one), struggling with them, or is assaulted by other people around. That same man with training and a gun can kill 5 people in under 10 seconds, distance isn't a factor, neither is exhaustion. He can kill (as in el paso) 22 people and injure 24 (keep in mind there is no such thing as a minor gunshot wound, some of these people may never walk again or lose a limb) in a matter of a few minutes. Give the el paso shooter a knife, maybe not even one person dies. Keep in mind, in most of these cases we aren't even talking about smart and trained people... we are talking about potato head kids that have no fucking clue what they are doing, and still kill 22 people. Guns turn a walking potato head kid into a real life Mike Meyers (actually worse, because Mike Meyers had a knife and only killed like 5 teens in a long as night of halloween terror. Many hours of terror and few deaths). So you're going to tell us again, guns are a good idea for defense? That the side effect or risk of guns in American civilian society for defense is proportional to the benefit? Real life continues to run this experiment for us all, and the results grossly show the damage outweighs the benefit. I don't really think there's any semantic use in not calling them equalizers just because the result is not perfect equality. I don't see the use in indulging your comparisons to knives, since my only point would be one you already admitted: a trained but weaker man is better able to defend himself using a gun against a stronger person with a knife. That's a very good right to protect for the weak to defend themselves against the strong. If you want me to tell you that again, I will. I certainly wouldn't be on the internet arguing for these positions if I didn't judge that the benefits outweighed the risks, both now and into future centuries. I do understand that you think the risks outweigh the benefits. Show nested quote +On August 11 2019 02:16 ShambhalaWar wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. If the guy in tactical gear had just opened fire without recording himself, or walking around, he would have killed how many people do you think before the firefighter was able to draw and fire? The response time in dayton was 32 seconds, and 9 dead. https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-shooting-dayton-ohio/Even if his response was only 15 seconds (basically perfect shots and reactions) how many do you think would be dead by then? I have nothing to go on for his accuracy, reload speed, or occupancy. We already know from the Orlando nightclub shooting that mass shootings can be very deadly, and from Virginia Tech, and the majority of events, that the same lethal results often come from pistols. So I can't guess your purpose in asking for my estimation of casualties, unless you want me to appear callous to death in discussing it at length, or you are under the impression that my argument relies on a number of deaths that's unacceptable from a single shooter with a semi-automatic rifle.
Ahh so you think the system is working, the government is good and that you should just deal with all the downsides of guns in case that changes and you need them? The risk reward calculations make no sense to me, but I value human life much more than remote possibilities.
Glad you at least agree that a USA with out guns everywhere would be a lot safer. It is too bad you are against moving in that direction.
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On August 11 2019 04:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2019 02:57 Danglars wrote:On August 11 2019 01:32 JimmiC wrote:
It does not strike you as troublesome that in your first paragraph one of the reasons you say guns are needed is a broken system, then your second paragraph is about trusting of the same broken system?
Also it is your point that if this person had a bat it would be the same level of danger as a large gun? You dont think that of the firefighter had a taser and this guy had a bat that their was way less chances of casualties? I never said it was due to a broken system, so you'll have to explain and justify whatever you're using to get there. In order: No, that is not my point, and yes, your hypothetical is true. In fact, if the entire country only were armed with their own fists, I'm sure there would be substantially less casualties. On August 11 2019 02:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On August 11 2019 01:03 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af. The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results. You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence. The problem with that argument is that guns aren't really "equalizers" as much as "enhancers." If guns were equalizers they would put everyone on the same level of lethality, but no matter who you give a gun to, murderer or defender, they all become more lethal. If someone is weaker, but then you train him and you put a gun in his hand, he can defend himself against a stronger person with a knife. Strength is less of a factor or no factor. But the same can also be said for someone with a knife. A strong man with a knife can maybe kill/injure 1-5 people before he is exhausted from chasing them (if he can even catch one), struggling with them, or is assaulted by other people around. That same man with training and a gun can kill 5 people in under 10 seconds, distance isn't a factor, neither is exhaustion. He can kill (as in el paso) 22 people and injure 24 (keep in mind there is no such thing as a minor gunshot wound, some of these people may never walk again or lose a limb) in a matter of a few minutes. Give the el paso shooter a knife, maybe not even one person dies. Keep in mind, in most of these cases we aren't even talking about smart and trained people... we are talking about potato head kids that have no fucking clue what they are doing, and still kill 22 people. Guns turn a walking potato head kid into a real life Mike Meyers (actually worse, because Mike Meyers had a knife and only killed like 5 teens in a long as night of halloween terror. Many hours of terror and few deaths). So you're going to tell us again, guns are a good idea for defense? That the side effect or risk of guns in American civilian society for defense is proportional to the benefit? Real life continues to run this experiment for us all, and the results grossly show the damage outweighs the benefit. I don't really think there's any semantic use in not calling them equalizers just because the result is not perfect equality. I don't see the use in indulging your comparisons to knives, since my only point would be one you already admitted: a trained but weaker man is better able to defend himself using a gun against a stronger person with a knife. That's a very good right to protect for the weak to defend themselves against the strong. If you want me to tell you that again, I will. I certainly wouldn't be on the internet arguing for these positions if I didn't judge that the benefits outweighed the risks, both now and into future centuries. I do understand that you think the risks outweigh the benefits. On August 11 2019 02:16 ShambhalaWar wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. If the guy in tactical gear had just opened fire without recording himself, or walking around, he would have killed how many people do you think before the firefighter was able to draw and fire? The response time in dayton was 32 seconds, and 9 dead. https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-shooting-dayton-ohio/Even if his response was only 15 seconds (basically perfect shots and reactions) how many do you think would be dead by then? I have nothing to go on for his accuracy, reload speed, or occupancy. We already know from the Orlando nightclub shooting that mass shootings can be very deadly, and from Virginia Tech, and the majority of events, that the same lethal results often come from pistols. So I can't guess your purpose in asking for my estimation of casualties, unless you want me to appear callous to death in discussing it at length, or you are under the impression that my argument relies on a number of deaths that's unacceptable from a single shooter with a semi-automatic rifle. Ahh so you think the system is working, the government is good and that you should just deal with all the downsides of guns in case that changes and you need them? The risk reward calculations make no sense to me, but I value human life much more than remote possibilities. Glad you at least agree that a USA with out guns everywhere would be a lot safer. It is too bad you are against moving in that direction.
This is the classic herp derp comment. Poster does not characterize the topic as due to a "broken system," therefore assume "the system is working, the government is good and that you should just deal with all the downsides of guns in case that changes and you need them." Put a little more effort into your posts, troll, if you want to be taken seriously around here, and not just populate the ranks of clueless gun control activists. We have enough hucksters already, and this comes after your idiodic evil, just like your gamer tag post a couple days ago, like discussing gun rights is all a sort of joke.
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On August 11 2019 05:49 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2019 04:02 JimmiC wrote:On August 11 2019 02:57 Danglars wrote:On August 11 2019 01:32 JimmiC wrote:
It does not strike you as troublesome that in your first paragraph one of the reasons you say guns are needed is a broken system, then your second paragraph is about trusting of the same broken system?
Also it is your point that if this person had a bat it would be the same level of danger as a large gun? You dont think that of the firefighter had a taser and this guy had a bat that their was way less chances of casualties? I never said it was due to a broken system, so you'll have to explain and justify whatever you're using to get there. In order: No, that is not my point, and yes, your hypothetical is true. In fact, if the entire country only were armed with their own fists, I'm sure there would be substantially less casualties. On August 11 2019 02:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On August 11 2019 01:03 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af. The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results. You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence. The problem with that argument is that guns aren't really "equalizers" as much as "enhancers." If guns were equalizers they would put everyone on the same level of lethality, but no matter who you give a gun to, murderer or defender, they all become more lethal. If someone is weaker, but then you train him and you put a gun in his hand, he can defend himself against a stronger person with a knife. Strength is less of a factor or no factor. But the same can also be said for someone with a knife. A strong man with a knife can maybe kill/injure 1-5 people before he is exhausted from chasing them (if he can even catch one), struggling with them, or is assaulted by other people around. That same man with training and a gun can kill 5 people in under 10 seconds, distance isn't a factor, neither is exhaustion. He can kill (as in el paso) 22 people and injure 24 (keep in mind there is no such thing as a minor gunshot wound, some of these people may never walk again or lose a limb) in a matter of a few minutes. Give the el paso shooter a knife, maybe not even one person dies. Keep in mind, in most of these cases we aren't even talking about smart and trained people... we are talking about potato head kids that have no fucking clue what they are doing, and still kill 22 people. Guns turn a walking potato head kid into a real life Mike Meyers (actually worse, because Mike Meyers had a knife and only killed like 5 teens in a long as night of halloween terror. Many hours of terror and few deaths). So you're going to tell us again, guns are a good idea for defense? That the side effect or risk of guns in American civilian society for defense is proportional to the benefit? Real life continues to run this experiment for us all, and the results grossly show the damage outweighs the benefit. I don't really think there's any semantic use in not calling them equalizers just because the result is not perfect equality. I don't see the use in indulging your comparisons to knives, since my only point would be one you already admitted: a trained but weaker man is better able to defend himself using a gun against a stronger person with a knife. That's a very good right to protect for the weak to defend themselves against the strong. If you want me to tell you that again, I will. I certainly wouldn't be on the internet arguing for these positions if I didn't judge that the benefits outweighed the risks, both now and into future centuries. I do understand that you think the risks outweigh the benefits. On August 11 2019 02:16 ShambhalaWar wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. If the guy in tactical gear had just opened fire without recording himself, or walking around, he would have killed how many people do you think before the firefighter was able to draw and fire? The response time in dayton was 32 seconds, and 9 dead. https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-shooting-dayton-ohio/Even if his response was only 15 seconds (basically perfect shots and reactions) how many do you think would be dead by then? I have nothing to go on for his accuracy, reload speed, or occupancy. We already know from the Orlando nightclub shooting that mass shootings can be very deadly, and from Virginia Tech, and the majority of events, that the same lethal results often come from pistols. So I can't guess your purpose in asking for my estimation of casualties, unless you want me to appear callous to death in discussing it at length, or you are under the impression that my argument relies on a number of deaths that's unacceptable from a single shooter with a semi-automatic rifle. Ahh so you think the system is working, the government is good and that you should just deal with all the downsides of guns in case that changes and you need them? The risk reward calculations make no sense to me, but I value human life much more than remote possibilities. Glad you at least agree that a USA with out guns everywhere would be a lot safer. It is too bad you are against moving in that direction. This is the classic herp derp comment. Poster does not characterize the topic as due to a "broken system," therefore assume "the system is working, the government is good and that you should just deal with all the downsides of guns in case that changes and you need them." Put a little more effort into your posts, troll, if you want to be taken seriously around here, and not just populate the ranks of clueless gun control activists. We have enough hucksters already.
The irony is so thick in your post I don't even know how to respond.
This is how our convo went. You made a comment about how shocked you were that gun control people were not happy about the article you posted. Because of the law and the good guy factor.
I pointed out you were not actually surprised because there was no gun control law that was related to that story. You were faux offended that I would suggest you were not being genuine but have failed to explain why a gun control person would be happy about that.
Then multiple people pointed out to you that it is not clear who the "good guy" even was. And that the only reason that situation was a situation was because of the guns.
You then point out that guns are some great equalizer (that ups the risk from beating to death mind you) and that you need guns in case of a gov out of control. But that you are confident that same government will successfully sort out who was actually the "good guy".
People don't take me serious because of my long back and forth's with GH. People don't take you serious because your logic does not flow and you constantly fake concern and make disingenuous posts. You have 0 credibility. The big difference between us is I at least have the self awareness to know why some don't appreciate me, you seem unaware of how transparent you are.
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On August 11 2019 01:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2019 20:01 Excludos wrote:On August 10 2019 03:48 Danglars wrote:On August 10 2019 03:28 Fleetfeet wrote:On August 10 2019 01:54 Danglars wrote:On August 09 2019 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Directly related to mass shootings: The worry that someone decked out like Rambo in public is going to commit one... Former firefighter stops man armed with 100 rounds of ammunition at south Springfield Walmart
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. The Springfield Police Department says it responded to a call of an active shooter at the Walmart Neighborhood Market at Republic Rd., near Golden Ave., Thursday evening.
The Springfield Police Department arrived on scene within three minutes of the call. Police stated that a young white male, appearing to be in his twenties, pulled up to the Walmart, where he donned body armor and military fatigues. Police say the man had tactical weapons.
Police then say the man walked into the Walmart: Neighborhood Market where he grabbed a cart and began pushing it around the store. Police say the man was recording himself walking through the store via a cell phone.
The store manager at the Neighborhood Market pulled a fire alarm, urging people to escape the store.
Police say the man then made his way out an emergency exit where a former firefighter held the man at gunpoint. At that moment Springfield Police arrived on scene and detained the man.
The Springfield Police Department could not confirm the nature of statements said by the man to those inside of the Walmart, but they do confirm that the man had loaded weapons, and over one hundred rounds of ammunition.
Police also observed many shoppers hiding outside the Walmart and at nearby businesses.
Lieutenant Mike Lucas said it was clear the man's intent was to cause chaos, saying in part, "His intent was not to cause peace or comfort...He's lucky he's alive still, to be honest."
Police identified the man's vehicle and are investigating the possibility of more firearms inside the vehicle. https://www.ky3.com/content/news/Heavy-police-presence-at-Walmart-Neighborhood-Market-in-south-Springfield-528602951.html?fbclid=IwAR2jOSR7h85Vt4wl6eihhrVlh1IbkaPuWhTOdG-U4A-f2r3NOwsrYR_yN5o This guy wasn't actually shooting anyone, but he certainly "fit the profile" of a potential mass shooter: young, white man carrying a gun and ammunition. I wonder how outraged the pro-gun community would become if everyone started calling the police on people who were open carrying and subjectively looking like a perceived threat. Probably about as outraged as the black community, when they're driving or walking or grilling or breathing "suspiciously". Fits the profile of a good guy with a gun, too. There will still be millions of guns in the country if they’re banned, but then you’d have someone intent on criminal mayhem carrying, and the firefighter disarmed. I applaud the good guy with a gun. I hope America continues to protect his right to purchase and bear his firearm in public for his whole life, and that he passes that noble tradition down to children. And I hope the system changes to where the good guy with a handgun doesn't have his walmart trip interrupted by a kid with a rifle. You can glorify the noble tradition all you want - that glory still plays in to why people engage this show of power. Make the 'noble' thing noble. Let it earn its title back. This story is stark evidence that carrying a firearm is NOT noble in America at the moment. Firefighter does insane judo chop to disarm bad guy with a gun? You can imagine a better world all you want, but all I see changed is a disarmed firefighter watching helplessly and you having the exact same take with a bigger body count. Wouldn't the whole situation have been made drastically better if simply neither had guns? That is, after all, the end result we're working towards here. We're not just disarming "good guy with the gun" but also the "bad guy with a gun". Also, how the 2A community isn't outraged by this "legitimate gun owner" being held at gunpoint by a firefighter for the crime of simply carrying one is beyond me. The whole situation is dumb af. The situation converts to knives and hammers, as already seen in other countries. Guns and training in their use are an excellent self defensive tool and an excellent equalizer in terms of smaller frame and strength people. Moving on from their basic use, they're useful in long-term protections against a capricious or lawless government, or agents of that government. I gather you don't think these arguments have merit, but maybe you can allow that we're working at different end results. You can read my previous posts for what I presumed about the arresting charge, and comment on whether or not you think the young man in body armor filming himself was otherwise acting innocently or was brandishing the weapon or speaking in a threatening manner to other shoppers. He has been charged with a crime in an open carry state, and it is up to the police/DA's office to demonstrate that he is guilty of that crime with witness testimony and other evidence.
Do you still think the gun owner that didn't draw and point his weapon at a human (unlike the fire fighter who by all reports was clearly breaking the law though you deemed him a good guy) was breaking the law?
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A potential mass shooting was successfully thwarted:
FBI: Man Arrested for Threatening Massacre Had 10,000 Rounds of Ammo
Feds raided the Ohio home of Justin Olsen immediately after Dayton and El Paso mass shootings.
Days after mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton rocked the nation, FBI agents raided the home of an Ohio man who allegedly threatened to commit his own massacre. Inside, they found more than a dozen rifles and 10,000 rounds of ammunition, the FBI said.
Justin Olsen, 18, was arrested Monday for allegedly threatening to assault a federal law enforcement officer. He’s accused of making the threats on a meme website where he also allegedly discussed shooting Planned Parenthood locations, citing multiple mass murders involving far-right extremists.
Olsen allegedly made the threats on iFunny, a meme-sharing site where he used the name “ArmyOfChrist” and a picture of a medieval crusader as his avatar. (The crusades are a popular theme in some far-right Christian circles.) His account had more than 5,000 followers as of Tuesday morning before it was suspended.
Olsen’s arrest comes as federal agencies are facing increased pressure to take action against domestic terror following a series of mass shootings, several of which were connected to ominous posts online.
An FBI office in Anchorage, Alaska flagged the posts, and the bureau continued to monitor them as they grew more specific, FBI spokesperson Vicki Anderson said.
A search of Olsen’s house last Wednesday, where he reportedly lived with his father, turned up a trove of weapons, including 300 rounds of ammunition on a staircase, another 10,000 rounds in a bedroom, 15 rifles including AR-15 style rifles, and 10 semi-automatic pistols, and a machete in Olsen’s car. A search warrant reveals authorities searched Olsen’s property for “hate related literature.”
Olsen allegedly told investigators his posts were “only a joke” and that the reference to shooting agents was “a hyperbolic conclusion based on the results of the Waco siege.”
His lawyer did not immediately return a request for comment.
In chats, Olsen allegedly cited the bloody 1993 confrontation between federal agents and a religious sect in Waco, Texas. The shoot-out resulted from a standoff between Branch Davidians and federal law enforcement, who accused the group of child sex abuse and hoarding illegal weapons. A pair of shooting battles and a 51-day standoff killed 76 Branch Davidians and four federal agents.
In screenshots included in court papers, Olsen allegedly cited Waco as justification to “shoot every federal agent on sight.”
Extremists, including Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, have cited Waco as justification for their own violent acts. Olsen allegedly referenced McVeigh as committing “a viable method of political change” when he killed 168 people in a federal building with a truck bomb in 1995. Olsen also allegedly called on followers to “stock up” on illegal firearms.
Anderson said the agency has been receiving more tips about suspicious online activity. https://www.thedailybeast.com/fbi-justin-olsen-arrested-for-threatening-massacre-had-10000-rounds-of-ammo?ref=scroll&fbclid=IwAR2Jrb4k0FwShTj23QP268sgOR9H7wM7VTPWU26dTFX7PuToOd8gzQu2JZs
It's very frustrating that the only proactive measure we can take to stop these things requires us to hope that would-be mass shooters post enough stupid, violent, and threatening things online to warrant them being preemptively stopped. The American public has been calling for gun control and other reforms that would make situations like these far less likely, yet the Republican Party and the NRA continue to care more about money than human lives.
You could nearly set a clock to these daily mass shootings, and we know what the recipe is: Guns don't mass murder people... insane, conservative, white, male, American ammosexuals with guns mass murder people. Bonus: This domestic terrorist is yet another proud Christian extremist who had his crosshairs set on multiple Planned Parenthood clinics.
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5905 Posts
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower.
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On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower.
Predator drones. We should give the police predator drones that way they can just bomb the mass shooters and write the rest off as collateral damage.
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On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower.
I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle.
To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings:
Story is developing.
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On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing.
Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too.
EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever.
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United States35728 Posts
On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing.
acab
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WCS
