|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
5930 Posts
On August 15 2019 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: Story is developing. Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too. EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever.
Yeah with the developing story it’s certainly different but at the same time it’s still a symptom of American society. This is still a mass shooting.
If police officers or anyone conducting law enforcement are going to expect to get shot up, I certainly understand if they adopt a shoot first, ask questions later stance.
I say understand, not support. Imagine working in a field where any arrest could end up with 6 police officers being shot (one being a graze wound around the head region), said police officers being forced to flee the site, and forced to deal with some guy whose barricaded himself.
Perhaps predator drones are actually the answer to this, clearly the police are being outmatched by dudes with a gun and no one in power wants to de-escalate firearms violence. FBI can’t stop all mass shootings (which this is) from happening, good guy FBI isn’t some omnipresent being unless the new argument is to ramp up state surveillance.
None of which actually solves American people ultimately distrusting their neighbours and their motives.
|
On August 15 2019 14:56 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing. Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too. EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever. Yeah with the developing story it’s certainly different but at the same time it’s still a symptom of American society. This is still a mass shooting. If police officers or anyone conducting law enforcement are going to expect to get shot up, I certainly understand if they adopt a shoot first, ask questions later stance. I say understand, not support. Imagine working in a field where any arrest could end up with 6 police officers being shot (one being a graze wound around the head region), said police officers being forced to flee the site, and forced to deal with some guy whose barricaded himself. Perhaps predator drones are actually the answer to this, clearly the police are being outmatched by dudes with a gun and no one in power wants to de-escalate firearms violence. FBI can’t stop all mass shootings (which this is) from happening, good guy FBI isn’t some omnipresent being unless the new argument is to ramp up state surveillance.
They could get different jobs if they are so scared?
|
5930 Posts
On August 15 2019 15:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 14:56 Womwomwom wrote:On August 15 2019 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing. Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too. EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever. Yeah with the developing story it’s certainly different but at the same time it’s still a symptom of American society. This is still a mass shooting. If police officers or anyone conducting law enforcement are going to expect to get shot up, I certainly understand if they adopt a shoot first, ask questions later stance. I say understand, not support. Imagine working in a field where any arrest could end up with 6 police officers being shot (one being a graze wound around the head region), said police officers being forced to flee the site, and forced to deal with some guy whose barricaded himself. Perhaps predator drones are actually the answer to this, clearly the police are being outmatched by dudes with a gun and no one in power wants to de-escalate firearms violence. FBI can’t stop all mass shootings (which this is) from happening, good guy FBI isn’t some omnipresent being unless the new argument is to ramp up state surveillance. They could get different jobs if they are so scared?
Which would be the logical thing to do but but average wage and benefits of a police officer are most likely better than anything they would ever hope to achieve by themselves.
A big problem with police brutality is that a lot of people understand that police officers are at risk of getting shot up so the public (well, mostly WASPs) are totally A-OK with the shoot first mentality. Police lives matter according to some people, more so than other people.
From an outsider looking in, it’s just so easy to justify violence in America because so many people can be assumed to have the capability to commit fatal attacks. Whether it’s in anger, self defence or for some ideological message, I don’t think it really matters.
|
Step 1 for dealing with an armed and violent population is to approach situations in a way where you hopefully have options beyond 'shoot first, even if he has his empty hands up in the air and clearly visible', which requires proper training.
Until they can stop executing people that are clearly no threat I have a very hard time justifying the trigger happiness of US cops.
|
US cops aren't actually very trigger happy. There are rare exceptions, but that is expected to happen (just consider how large the US is) because cops are also just people, and people can be stupid, or misjudge a situation. It's not an excuse for their actions, but it's an important relativization. All people have the potential to royally screw up, be it intentional or not.
What they don't show in the mainstream media is all the clips of cops being shot at, or knived, and sometimes even killed. I've seen the footage, it's terrifying and makes me understand why cops have to be so cautious. What they don't show is the footage of cases where it's 100% clear that the cops acted with appropriate force. What they don't show is the footage of cases where cops aren't cautious enough, trying not to harm the suspect, and then get attacked or even killed because they didn't want to shoot. I've seen cops plead with the suspect, screaming at the top of their lungs, begging for them to stay on the ground, and then they get brutally attacked.
There are two sides on this coin.
Yes, there are horrible cops. But the mainstream media is blowing this completely out of proportion.
The vast majority of American cops are good people. They just don't want to die on duty because of a stupid oversight, or misplaced empathy. There's nothing wrong with trying to survive as a cop.
Yes, they need to be trained better. They can always be trained better. But lets not pretend that cops are "trigger happy". In the grand scheme of things, that is just a very false representation of reality.
|
The longest running primetime television show in the US is Cops, a show that portrays literally all of the things you claim aren’t being shown. And the “mainstream media” is all over the place on showing police in varying lights, and the same can be said about local news.
|
On August 15 2019 22:10 Magic Powers wrote:
US cops aren't actually very trigger happy. There are rare exceptions, but that is expected to happen (just consider how large the US is) because cops are also just people, and people can be stupid, or misjudge a situation. It's not an excuse for their actions, but it's an important relativization. All people have the potential to royally screw up, be it intentional or not.
What they don't show in the mainstream media is all the clips of cops being shot at, or knived, and sometimes even killed. I've seen the footage, it's terrifying and makes me understand why cops have to be so cautious. What they don't show is the footage of cases where it's 100% clear that the cops acted with appropriate force. What they don't show is the footage of cases where cops aren't cautious enough, trying not to harm the suspect, and then get attacked or even killed because they didn't want to shoot. I've seen cops plead with the suspect, screaming at the top of their lungs, begging for them to stay on the ground, and then they get brutally attacked.
There are two sides on this coin.
Yes, there are horrible cops. But the mainstream media is blowing this completely out of proportion.
The vast majority of American cops are good people. They just don't want to die on duty because of a stupid oversight, or misplaced empathy. There's nothing wrong with trying to survive as a cop.
Yes, they need to be trained better. They can always be trained better. But lets not pretend that cops are "trigger happy". In the grand scheme of things, that is just a very false representation of reality. In which case US numbers per capita would be in line with anything other then 3e world 'shitholes'.
They are not, even ignore that there is no requirement for US law enforcement to report the number of people they shoot so the numbers we do have are likely lower then the truth.
|
|
|
On August 15 2019 22:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 22:10 Magic Powers wrote:
US cops aren't actually very trigger happy. There are rare exceptions, but that is expected to happen (just consider how large the US is) because cops are also just people, and people can be stupid, or misjudge a situation. It's not an excuse for their actions, but it's an important relativization. All people have the potential to royally screw up, be it intentional or not.
What they don't show in the mainstream media is all the clips of cops being shot at, or knived, and sometimes even killed. I've seen the footage, it's terrifying and makes me understand why cops have to be so cautious. What they don't show is the footage of cases where it's 100% clear that the cops acted with appropriate force. What they don't show is the footage of cases where cops aren't cautious enough, trying not to harm the suspect, and then get attacked or even killed because they didn't want to shoot. I've seen cops plead with the suspect, screaming at the top of their lungs, begging for them to stay on the ground, and then they get brutally attacked.
There are two sides on this coin.
Yes, there are horrible cops. But the mainstream media is blowing this completely out of proportion.
The vast majority of American cops are good people. They just don't want to die on duty because of a stupid oversight, or misplaced empathy. There's nothing wrong with trying to survive as a cop.
Yes, they need to be trained better. They can always be trained better. But lets not pretend that cops are "trigger happy". In the grand scheme of things, that is just a very false representation of reality. In which case US numbers per capita would be in line with anything other then 3e world 'shitholes'. They are not, even ignore that there is no requirement for US law enforcement to report the number of people they shoot so the numbers we do have are likely lower then the truth.
Show, dont tell. Do you have a source with numbers to back this?
|
On August 16 2019 01:44 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 22:29 Gorsameth wrote:On August 15 2019 22:10 Magic Powers wrote:
US cops aren't actually very trigger happy. There are rare exceptions, but that is expected to happen (just consider how large the US is) because cops are also just people, and people can be stupid, or misjudge a situation. It's not an excuse for their actions, but it's an important relativization. All people have the potential to royally screw up, be it intentional or not.
What they don't show in the mainstream media is all the clips of cops being shot at, or knived, and sometimes even killed. I've seen the footage, it's terrifying and makes me understand why cops have to be so cautious. What they don't show is the footage of cases where it's 100% clear that the cops acted with appropriate force. What they don't show is the footage of cases where cops aren't cautious enough, trying not to harm the suspect, and then get attacked or even killed because they didn't want to shoot. I've seen cops plead with the suspect, screaming at the top of their lungs, begging for them to stay on the ground, and then they get brutally attacked.
There are two sides on this coin.
Yes, there are horrible cops. But the mainstream media is blowing this completely out of proportion.
The vast majority of American cops are good people. They just don't want to die on duty because of a stupid oversight, or misplaced empathy. There's nothing wrong with trying to survive as a cop.
Yes, they need to be trained better. They can always be trained better. But lets not pretend that cops are "trigger happy". In the grand scheme of things, that is just a very false representation of reality. In which case US numbers per capita would be in line with anything other then 3e world 'shitholes'. They are not, even ignore that there is no requirement for US law enforcement to report the number of people they shoot so the numbers we do have are likely lower then the truth. Show, dont tell. Do you have a source with numbers to back this?
Google, don't ask to be spoonfed. Magic Powers made an extraordinary initial claim and the burden of proof was on him, not on Gorsameth who said that water is wet.
But here you go:
US police kill roughly 1000 people a year
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police-shootings-2018/
English + Welsh police kill up to 5 people a year
https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/statistics/deaths_during_following_police_contact_201718.pdf
US population is around 6 times higher than England's, rather than the 200 times needed to make Magic Powers' point valid
German police kill roughly 10 people a year
https://www.dw.com/en/police-shootings-german-cops-shot-dead-14-people-in-2017/a-44451501
US population is around 4 times higher than Germany's, rather than 100 times.
Of course in the only developed country with a gun problem there's going to be more fatal police interventions.
|
|
|
On August 16 2019 04:57 JimmiC wrote:
This is not meant to be insulting but I'm not really sure how to ask it.
Do American's really not know how bad they are in regards to gun accidents, police shootings, shootings, Murders with guns, gun suicides and so on?
Perhaps this is where the disconnect is, they just do not know that they are in the 100's of times worse.
I don't think that's the main issue or priority, sadly. At the risk of creating strawmen, I think it comes down to two main arguments on the pro-gun side:
1. It's in the Constitution, so full-stop it's an inherent right and freedom to keep things exactly the way they are. (This, of course, ignores the fact that we've amended the Constitution many times, and that laws written over 200 years ago should probably be updated so that the language is modernized.)
2. The gun violence we see in the United States is a sad reality but a necessary evil; i.e., even though some of us die, more of us are generally safer by being able to have guns. (This ignores the fact that we could still modify rules and regulations to maximize the number of people who are safe and minimize the number of people who are hurt.)
For some reason, pro-gun activism tends to mean "literally doing nothing about guns and keeping the exact status quo when it comes to guns", as any sort of modification will be seen as a compromise that could slippery slope to Obama coming back and taking away everyone's guns.
|
All these shootings nonstop are just crazy and sad...the world is on fire it seems, or maybe just the USA =O
|
|
|
On August 15 2019 23:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 15:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 14:56 Womwomwom wrote:On August 15 2019 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing. Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too. EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever. Yeah with the developing story it’s certainly different but at the same time it’s still a symptom of American society. This is still a mass shooting. If police officers or anyone conducting law enforcement are going to expect to get shot up, I certainly understand if they adopt a shoot first, ask questions later stance. I say understand, not support. Imagine working in a field where any arrest could end up with 6 police officers being shot (one being a graze wound around the head region), said police officers being forced to flee the site, and forced to deal with some guy whose barricaded himself. Perhaps predator drones are actually the answer to this, clearly the police are being outmatched by dudes with a gun and no one in power wants to de-escalate firearms violence. FBI can’t stop all mass shootings (which this is) from happening, good guy FBI isn’t some omnipresent being unless the new argument is to ramp up state surveillance. They could get different jobs if they are so scared? This is the equivalent of telling poor people to get jobs or if the criminals just stopped committing crimes we would't have these problems. LOL. Come on now at least keep some consistency with your rhetoric.
No, it's not. Saying cops don't have to be cops is not at all like telling a poor person to get a job or criminals to stop committing crimes.
|
|
|
On August 16 2019 06:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 23:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 15 2019 15:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 14:56 Womwomwom wrote:On August 15 2019 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing. Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too. EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever. Yeah with the developing story it’s certainly different but at the same time it’s still a symptom of American society. This is still a mass shooting. If police officers or anyone conducting law enforcement are going to expect to get shot up, I certainly understand if they adopt a shoot first, ask questions later stance. I say understand, not support. Imagine working in a field where any arrest could end up with 6 police officers being shot (one being a graze wound around the head region), said police officers being forced to flee the site, and forced to deal with some guy whose barricaded himself. Perhaps predator drones are actually the answer to this, clearly the police are being outmatched by dudes with a gun and no one in power wants to de-escalate firearms violence. FBI can’t stop all mass shootings (which this is) from happening, good guy FBI isn’t some omnipresent being unless the new argument is to ramp up state surveillance. They could get different jobs if they are so scared? This is the equivalent of telling poor people to get jobs or if the criminals just stopped committing crimes we would't have these problems. LOL. Come on now at least keep some consistency with your rhetoric. No, it's not. Saying cops don't have to be cops is not at all like telling a poor person to get a job or criminals to stop committing crimes. It is like not being in white club but being white club adjacent? Many people are cops because with their education, skills it is the best" job from a money and benefits package they can get. Others of course because they want to "serve and protect" and some because they just love power and guns. My point was your oversimplified solution is no better than peoples oversimplified solutions for others.
No idea what you're trying to ask regarding white club or white club adjacency?
Are you trying to argue cops are overpaid for their skillset and every other opportunity for someone qualified to be a cop is so underpaid as to render it not a viable choice?
Fearful cowards not being cops or protected by laws that defer to their cowardliness is a great idea compared to telling a poor person to get a job.
|
|
|
On August 16 2019 06:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 06:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 16 2019 06:22 JimmiC wrote:On August 16 2019 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 23:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 15 2019 15:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 14:56 Womwomwom wrote:On August 15 2019 12:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 15 2019 12:19 Danglars wrote:On August 15 2019 11:02 Womwomwom wrote:
Good on the FBI but the FBI can’t be everywhere.
Right now, there’s a situation in Philly where someone has been gunning down police officers. So far, about 6 have been shot and it’s still an active shooter situation.
Seems like there’s a mass shooting every single week, regardless of how well armed the targets are. You’d think those police officers would have ended this dude’s life in mere minutes but apparently the police can’t do anything to stop 6 of them from getting shot. Only solution is more armour, better training, more firepower. I don't really know if you want to classify police serving a narcotics warrant with mass shootings, unless you have some political hay to make. Kamala Harris is going with that angle. To give you an idea of the difference in community response with this incident compared to previous mass shootings: https://twitter.com/mollyfprince/status/1161809310873268225Story is developing. Do you have any idea the markup Philly police puts on the drugs they sell? I'd be pissed too. EDIT: I agree though that this is different in that his targets are specific and represent quite real threats as opposed to the right-wing white nationalists terrorists and "incels" or whatever. Yeah with the developing story it’s certainly different but at the same time it’s still a symptom of American society. This is still a mass shooting. If police officers or anyone conducting law enforcement are going to expect to get shot up, I certainly understand if they adopt a shoot first, ask questions later stance. I say understand, not support. Imagine working in a field where any arrest could end up with 6 police officers being shot (one being a graze wound around the head region), said police officers being forced to flee the site, and forced to deal with some guy whose barricaded himself. Perhaps predator drones are actually the answer to this, clearly the police are being outmatched by dudes with a gun and no one in power wants to de-escalate firearms violence. FBI can’t stop all mass shootings (which this is) from happening, good guy FBI isn’t some omnipresent being unless the new argument is to ramp up state surveillance. They could get different jobs if they are so scared? This is the equivalent of telling poor people to get jobs or if the criminals just stopped committing crimes we would't have these problems. LOL. Come on now at least keep some consistency with your rhetoric. No, it's not. Saying cops don't have to be cops is not at all like telling a poor person to get a job or criminals to stop committing crimes. It is like not being in white club but being white club adjacent? Many people are cops because with their education, skills it is the best" job from a money and benefits package they can get. Others of course because they want to "serve and protect" and some because they just love power and guns. My point was your oversimplified solution is no better than peoples oversimplified solutions for others. No idea what you're trying to ask regarding white club or white club adjacency? Are you trying to argue cops are overpaid for their skillset and every other opportunity for someone qualified to be a cop is so underpaid as to render it not a viable choice? Fearful cowards not being cops or protected by laws that defer to their cowardliness is a great idea compared to telling a poor person to get a job. I was joking about a past confusing point of yours, no big deal. Your second point is complicated, in the US they are vastly underpaid considering the danger they are in and the power they wield. But I'm pointing out that many of the people who take that job do so because there are not a lot of other options for them at that pay and benefit package.
Whiteclub and whiteclub adjacency isn't that complicated (particularly since Kwark was nice enough to give a thorough explanation)?
So you think being a cop is the best job they could get, but it's also still underpaid? So for those with the skillsets of cops the best they can hope for is an underpaid job that makes them fear for their life in such a panic they kill innocent people and cover for their buddies when they do?
If your argument is that cops are basically state sanctioned gangs I wouldn't disagree with you though.
Your hatred for cops, American and world wide is well known. But it is still amazing how big your blind spot is in regards to what a difficult job it is and how much more difficult it is made by the accessibility of guns to everyone.
I feel like some of you can't distinguish critique from hate? I'd agree with Kwarks sentiment there though tbh.
I never said it isn't a difficult job, just that if they can't do it without their paranoia getting innocent people killed they should find different work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
