|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 21 2019 18:30 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 16:10 WonnaPlay wrote:On August 20 2019 23:33 Sent. wrote:On August 20 2019 22:37 WonnaPlay wrote:
/offtopic:
Over the years, there's so many times I've seen this thread popup on top, not because there is an ongoing discussion, but mainly due to new mass shootings happening so many times.
Sorry if I offend any U.S. people here, but the main thing I derived from this thread is that, about 90+% of all mass shootings worldwide are from this one country. Regardless of the "gun"-discussion, it is simply remarkable that such a progressive country is so conservative when it comes to this.
If this was ANY other subject, there would've been laws, mitigations and hundreds of countermeasures, yet after 100+ shootings, nothing has changed.
One simple and clear example: 9/11. One incident, Thousands of mitigations.
I'm an outsider to the gun discussion and to be frank, I DO understand both sides of the discussion. However, one thing should be clear as day. The current situation is simply not working. Sometimes you have to give up a hand, to not lose your entire arm. Can you back that up with some statistics? Sure. I will have to mention (and I should have mentioned initially) is that I am comparing against the developed world, as I see the United States as a developed country. Below are some articles regarding this topic. “The US makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, but holds 31% of global mass shooters.” - https://www.vox.com/2018/8/29/17792776/us-gun-deaths-global "Confirmation That the United States Has Six Times Its Global Share of Public Mass Shooters, Courtesy of Lott and Moody’s Data" - https://econjwatch.org/File download/1105/LankfordMar2019.pdf?mimetype=pdf"Gun homicide rates are 25.2 times higher in the US than in other high-income countries" - https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.htmlTake a good look at the CNN infograph, which isn't necessarily about mass shootings, but gives you and indication in which types of countries gun murders are a problem. I for one think that the U.S. shouldn't be in the "red zone", period. edit; typo I generally agree with you, but i hate manipulative infographs like that. They clearly chose the cutoff for red at at 30+ because the US is at 36, and thus barely falls in the red zone, making it feel qualitatively different and much more similar to the deep red 200+ or 300+ countries, rather than the <30 countries. And it is not like these statistics actually need that kind of manipulation. They actually speak for themselves and show that the US has a major problem.
People don't like raw numbers listed. Presentations often are just extra work to bundle information outside of text and numbers so people actually consume and remember it.
If raw data and text was convincing for people i wouldn't have the experience of taking KPIs and making them into line graphs or pie charts. Then automating that process because management preferred looking at that over just getting the numbers.
Also to assume they clearly choose 30 because US is 36 is suggesting what? That they could have chosen 20? or 40? The arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere. If the goal was to just not highlight other high income counties they could have chosen 9 instead of 30 as the cut off and that probably would have been more dramatic as the US would have been obviously excluded vs the rest of the high income counties.
Grouping the US with Argentina, Mexico, Uraguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua etc makes sense if you look at the numbers There isn't much of a gradual rise of gun homicides there are clear steps between groups of counties where you see gaps in the per capita gun homicide rate.
|
On August 22 2019 17:20 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2019 18:30 Simberto wrote:On August 21 2019 16:10 WonnaPlay wrote:On August 20 2019 23:33 Sent. wrote:On August 20 2019 22:37 WonnaPlay wrote:
/offtopic:
Over the years, there's so many times I've seen this thread popup on top, not because there is an ongoing discussion, but mainly due to new mass shootings happening so many times.
Sorry if I offend any U.S. people here, but the main thing I derived from this thread is that, about 90+% of all mass shootings worldwide are from this one country. Regardless of the "gun"-discussion, it is simply remarkable that such a progressive country is so conservative when it comes to this.
If this was ANY other subject, there would've been laws, mitigations and hundreds of countermeasures, yet after 100+ shootings, nothing has changed.
One simple and clear example: 9/11. One incident, Thousands of mitigations.
I'm an outsider to the gun discussion and to be frank, I DO understand both sides of the discussion. However, one thing should be clear as day. The current situation is simply not working. Sometimes you have to give up a hand, to not lose your entire arm. Can you back that up with some statistics? Sure. I will have to mention (and I should have mentioned initially) is that I am comparing against the developed world, as I see the United States as a developed country. Below are some articles regarding this topic. “The US makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, but holds 31% of global mass shooters.” - https://www.vox.com/2018/8/29/17792776/us-gun-deaths-global "Confirmation That the United States Has Six Times Its Global Share of Public Mass Shooters, Courtesy of Lott and Moody’s Data" - https://econjwatch.org/File download/1105/LankfordMar2019.pdf?mimetype=pdf"Gun homicide rates are 25.2 times higher in the US than in other high-income countries" - https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.htmlTake a good look at the CNN infograph, which isn't necessarily about mass shootings, but gives you and indication in which types of countries gun murders are a problem. I for one think that the U.S. shouldn't be in the "red zone", period. edit; typo I generally agree with you, but i hate manipulative infographs like that. They clearly chose the cutoff for red at at 30+ because the US is at 36, and thus barely falls in the red zone, making it feel qualitatively different and much more similar to the deep red 200+ or 300+ countries, rather than the <30 countries. And it is not like these statistics actually need that kind of manipulation. They actually speak for themselves and show that the US has a major problem. People don't like raw numbers listed. Presentations often are just extra work to bundle information outside of text and numbers so people actually consume and remember it. If raw data and text was convincing for people i wouldn't have the experience of taking KPIs and making them into line graphs or pie charts. Then automating that process because management preferred looking at that over just getting the numbers. Also to assume they clearly choose 30 because US is 36 is suggesting what? That they could have chosen 20? or 40? The arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere. If the goal was to just not highlight other high income counties they could have chosen 9 instead of 30 as the cut off and that probably would have been more dramatic as the US would have been obviously excluded vs the rest of the high income counties. Grouping the US with Argentina, Mexico, Uraguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua etc makes sense if you look at the numbers There isn't much of a gradual rise of gun homicides there are clear steps between groups of counties where you see gaps in the per capita gun homicide rate.
If they had chosen 50 instead of 30, the US would suddenly be grey with the rest of the developed world. If they had chosen 10 instead, maybe some countries that they don't want in that group would be red. 30 is clearly the smallest red group that still has the US in it, and as such i see it as manipulative.
Yes, the raw numbers show that the US is pretty bad with gun violence. And as such, i would prefer if we didn't try to trick people who suck at statistics. A number like "US gun homicide rates are 10 times higher than in any EU country" should speak for itself. You don't need to use manipulative maps and graphs for that. And if people don't grasp how bad that is, teach better statistics at school. The ethical way of dealing with people being bad at statistics is to teach them how to be better at statistics, not to abuse that fact and serve them manipulative statistics.
I guess that is just my inner math teacher speaking.
|
According to some people in this forum, if you try to teach people to be better at statistics, they respond by adhering harder on their political stances when they intepret the statistics. Therefore people should not be better educated on interpreting the world around them but should be manipulated emotionally with groupthink instead. I am not joking btw.
|
|
|
On August 22 2019 18:25 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:20 semantics wrote:On August 21 2019 18:30 Simberto wrote:On August 21 2019 16:10 WonnaPlay wrote:On August 20 2019 23:33 Sent. wrote:On August 20 2019 22:37 WonnaPlay wrote:
/offtopic:
Over the years, there's so many times I've seen this thread popup on top, not because there is an ongoing discussion, but mainly due to new mass shootings happening so many times.
Sorry if I offend any U.S. people here, but the main thing I derived from this thread is that, about 90+% of all mass shootings worldwide are from this one country. Regardless of the "gun"-discussion, it is simply remarkable that such a progressive country is so conservative when it comes to this.
If this was ANY other subject, there would've been laws, mitigations and hundreds of countermeasures, yet after 100+ shootings, nothing has changed.
One simple and clear example: 9/11. One incident, Thousands of mitigations.
I'm an outsider to the gun discussion and to be frank, I DO understand both sides of the discussion. However, one thing should be clear as day. The current situation is simply not working. Sometimes you have to give up a hand, to not lose your entire arm. Can you back that up with some statistics? Sure. I will have to mention (and I should have mentioned initially) is that I am comparing against the developed world, as I see the United States as a developed country. Below are some articles regarding this topic. “The US makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, but holds 31% of global mass shooters.” - https://www.vox.com/2018/8/29/17792776/us-gun-deaths-global "Confirmation That the United States Has Six Times Its Global Share of Public Mass Shooters, Courtesy of Lott and Moody’s Data" - https://econjwatch.org/File download/1105/LankfordMar2019.pdf?mimetype=pdf"Gun homicide rates are 25.2 times higher in the US than in other high-income countries" - https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.htmlTake a good look at the CNN infograph, which isn't necessarily about mass shootings, but gives you and indication in which types of countries gun murders are a problem. I for one think that the U.S. shouldn't be in the "red zone", period. edit; typo I generally agree with you, but i hate manipulative infographs like that. They clearly chose the cutoff for red at at 30+ because the US is at 36, and thus barely falls in the red zone, making it feel qualitatively different and much more similar to the deep red 200+ or 300+ countries, rather than the <30 countries. And it is not like these statistics actually need that kind of manipulation. They actually speak for themselves and show that the US has a major problem. People don't like raw numbers listed. Presentations often are just extra work to bundle information outside of text and numbers so people actually consume and remember it. If raw data and text was convincing for people i wouldn't have the experience of taking KPIs and making them into line graphs or pie charts. Then automating that process because management preferred looking at that over just getting the numbers. Also to assume they clearly choose 30 because US is 36 is suggesting what? That they could have chosen 20? or 40? The arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere. If the goal was to just not highlight other high income counties they could have chosen 9 instead of 30 as the cut off and that probably would have been more dramatic as the US would have been obviously excluded vs the rest of the high income counties. Grouping the US with Argentina, Mexico, Uraguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua etc makes sense if you look at the numbers There isn't much of a gradual rise of gun homicides there are clear steps between groups of counties where you see gaps in the per capita gun homicide rate. If they had chosen 50 instead of 30, the US would suddenly be grey with the rest of the developed world. If they had chosen 10 instead, maybe some countries that they don't want in that group would be red. 30 is clearly the smallest red group that still has the US in it, and as such i see it as manipulative. Yes, the raw numbers show that the US is pretty bad with gun violence. And as such, i would prefer if we didn't try to trick people who suck at statistics. A number like "US gun homicide rates are 10 times higher than in any EU country" should speak for itself. You don't need to use manipulative maps and graphs for that. And if people don't grasp how bad that is, teach better statistics at school. The ethical way of dealing with people being bad at statistics is to teach them how to be better at statistics, not to abuse that fact and serve them manipulative statistics. I guess that is just my inner math teacher speaking.
Good spot, good eyes. If the real statistics are fine for the point you're making ("US gun homicide rates are 10 times higher than in any EU country"), then "manipulative infographics" to make something look extreme in a visual is just self-defeating. It's not like horrid statistics, such as recently shown, aren't already incorporated into arguments against bad policy ideas with very little impact, negligent enforcement of existing laws, and addressing the "violence" part of "gun violence."
|
On August 22 2019 18:25 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2019 17:20 semantics wrote:On August 21 2019 18:30 Simberto wrote:On August 21 2019 16:10 WonnaPlay wrote:On August 20 2019 23:33 Sent. wrote:On August 20 2019 22:37 WonnaPlay wrote:
/offtopic:
Over the years, there's so many times I've seen this thread popup on top, not because there is an ongoing discussion, but mainly due to new mass shootings happening so many times.
Sorry if I offend any U.S. people here, but the main thing I derived from this thread is that, about 90+% of all mass shootings worldwide are from this one country. Regardless of the "gun"-discussion, it is simply remarkable that such a progressive country is so conservative when it comes to this.
If this was ANY other subject, there would've been laws, mitigations and hundreds of countermeasures, yet after 100+ shootings, nothing has changed.
One simple and clear example: 9/11. One incident, Thousands of mitigations.
I'm an outsider to the gun discussion and to be frank, I DO understand both sides of the discussion. However, one thing should be clear as day. The current situation is simply not working. Sometimes you have to give up a hand, to not lose your entire arm. Can you back that up with some statistics? Sure. I will have to mention (and I should have mentioned initially) is that I am comparing against the developed world, as I see the United States as a developed country. Below are some articles regarding this topic. “The US makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, but holds 31% of global mass shooters.” - https://www.vox.com/2018/8/29/17792776/us-gun-deaths-global "Confirmation That the United States Has Six Times Its Global Share of Public Mass Shooters, Courtesy of Lott and Moody’s Data" - https://econjwatch.org/File download/1105/LankfordMar2019.pdf?mimetype=pdf"Gun homicide rates are 25.2 times higher in the US than in other high-income countries" - https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.htmlTake a good look at the CNN infograph, which isn't necessarily about mass shootings, but gives you and indication in which types of countries gun murders are a problem. I for one think that the U.S. shouldn't be in the "red zone", period. edit; typo I generally agree with you, but i hate manipulative infographs like that. They clearly chose the cutoff for red at at 30+ because the US is at 36, and thus barely falls in the red zone, making it feel qualitatively different and much more similar to the deep red 200+ or 300+ countries, rather than the <30 countries. And it is not like these statistics actually need that kind of manipulation. They actually speak for themselves and show that the US has a major problem. People don't like raw numbers listed. Presentations often are just extra work to bundle information outside of text and numbers so people actually consume and remember it. If raw data and text was convincing for people i wouldn't have the experience of taking KPIs and making them into line graphs or pie charts. Then automating that process because management preferred looking at that over just getting the numbers. Also to assume they clearly choose 30 because US is 36 is suggesting what? That they could have chosen 20? or 40? The arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere. If the goal was to just not highlight other high income counties they could have chosen 9 instead of 30 as the cut off and that probably would have been more dramatic as the US would have been obviously excluded vs the rest of the high income counties. Grouping the US with Argentina, Mexico, Uraguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua etc makes sense if you look at the numbers There isn't much of a gradual rise of gun homicides there are clear steps between groups of counties where you see gaps in the per capita gun homicide rate. If they had chosen 50 instead of 30, the US would suddenly be grey with the rest of the developed world. If they had chosen 10 instead, maybe some countries that they don't want in that group would be red. 30 is clearly the smallest red group that still has the US in it, and as such i see it as manipulative.Yes, the raw numbers show that the US is pretty bad with gun violence. And as such, i would prefer if we didn't try to trick people who suck at statistics. A number like "US gun homicide rates are 10 times higher than in any EU country" should speak for itself. You don't need to use manipulative maps and graphs for that. And if people don't grasp how bad that is, teach better statistics at school. The ethical way of dealing with people being bad at statistics is to teach them how to be better at statistics, not to abuse that fact and serve them manipulative statistics. I guess that is just my inner math teacher speaking.
These are the counties that fall between 10-29.9
Mauritius, Mozambique, Rwanda, Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Sao Tome and Principe, Egypt, Niger, Antigua And Barbuda, Cayman Islands, Chile, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iran (Islamic Republic Of), Georgia, Turkey, Belarus, Republic of Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Montenegro, Liechtenstein, New Caledonia, Guam, Palau, Cook Islands, Samoa
So which counties is it that they didn't want in grouped with the US, Mexico, Uruguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua etc. but also grouped in "with the rest of the developed world"
|
|
|
Looks like another mass/serial shooting in Texas. 5 dead 20+ injured. Suspect was a white guy in his 30's. Additional details are still coming to light.
Police in Texas said five people were dead and 21 injured in a shooting on Saturday afternoon near Midland and Odessa. The gunman was killed by law enforcement after being chased to a parking lot at an entertainment complex.
It was the second mass shooting in Texas this month. On 3 August a gunman killed 22 people and injured 24 at a Walmart in El Paso.
A Midland police spokesman said the shooting began after a traffic stop. In a brief televised press conference, the officer said there remained “a very fluid, confusing situation” and did not divulge details of the suspect or those killed and wounded.
www.theguardian.com
|
Trump is properly gonna blame it on Grand Theft Auto
|
|
|
United States42640 Posts
On September 18 2019 07:06 JimmiC wrote:Here is a story about a robbery gone wrong where 3 teens end up dead. Some people might think this a bonus for guns, but without them some people probably lose some stuff and no one dies. As it is right now the "bad guys" die. But life is far more complicated than that and now these kids have no chance to turn into anything. Even if the story ends up that these 3 boys were robbers and there is nothing questionable, I don't think they deserve to be shot and killed. I would rather be robbed then kill someone. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/three-masked-teens-gunned-down-during-failed-home-burglary-near-atlanta/ar-AAHr7dD?li=AAggNb9
It’s a tough one because they brought a gun with them on the burglary. Deadly force was proportionate force. Unless it turns out to be like the one where the guy held the first intruder at gunpoint, then executed them, hid the body, and lured in their friend to execute them too I think I’m fine with self defence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_David_Smith_killings
|
Canada11349 Posts
Yeah, it's not so obvious to me that without return fire, we would have no-one dead and people losing stuff. Not only did they bring a gun to a burglary, but the burglars had already opened fire, which is already crossing a lot of lines from threat of force to use of force- even if it turns out that the burglars didn't shoot at the residents (as is being currently reported). In either case, any reasonable person would conclude they are a hairbreadth away from getting gunned down by the burglars.
|
i feel like it's their culture that leads 3 boys (or any of most people) to go out and commit acts of crime
poor people get by and live very happily without stealing, raping, and shooting each other
you can be poor and not have a shitty fucking culture of crime and violence
there are exceptions but the US isn't a place where people are shitting in the bushes and dying of malaria a dime a dozen or whatever
don't give me shit about poverty when you got mobile phones, video games, take a shower every day in hot running water
shitty crime- and violence- oriented cultures cause stuff like this to happen in the first place
anyway we should be looking at individual motivations more i feel
what's driving these people to commit crimes and causing people to get shot up
'poverty' isn't an answer
|
United States24676 Posts
Setting the exact sequence of events aside, if someone is armed with a gun and enters your property in a threatening manner, knowing you are there, I have trouble rationalizing telling someone that they don't have the right to defend themselves with equivalent force. The choices aren't simply kill the intruder or let the intruder rob you... you don't know what that person is going to do, and people who intrude on your home knowing you are there are much less predictable than people who were obviously trying to steal from an empty house and ran into you by accident.
This doesn't resolve issues about unstable people easily obtaining guns.
|
|
|
yeah, when u have a magic weapon that 1-shots anyone and all u have to do is point and click a button...
|
Multiple people already stole the words out of my mouth. Defense within the home from armed burglars isn’t close to an edge case for me. Hopefully more teens will have fresh example not to forcibly break and enter in that area, knowing they may be taking their lives into their hands in doing so. The real tragedy would have been dead or wounded law abiding citizens in that house, and a gang of teens emboldened to get another high from stealing somebody else’s stuff in masks with a gun.
|
the tragedy is that people think it or find it necessary to burgle in the first place
|
I think the point is less whether the person at the house was justified to shoot them, and more that it is still a tragedy that three teens were shot. And maybe that wouldn't have happened if people didn't have guns.
|
United States42640 Posts
On September 18 2019 12:42 Danglars wrote:
Multiple people already stole the words out of my mouth. Defense within the home from armed burglars isn’t close to an edge case for me. Hopefully more teens will have fresh example not to forcibly break and enter in that area, knowing they may be taking their lives into their hands in doing so. The real tragedy would have been dead or wounded law abiding citizens in that house, and a gang of teens emboldened to get another high from stealing somebody else’s stuff in masks with a gun.
Three dead children probably counts as the real tragedy, even if they were dumb children doing something selfish and irresponsible. Their lives had value and now that value is gone. At the very least they represented a huge investment by society, far in excess of what they hoped to steal, that will never generate a return.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
