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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 13 2016 14:05 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 14:01 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Americans only support gun regulations that will do close to nothing to reduce the number of gun homicides and only so long as they don't interfere with their ability to own firearms. Like universal background checks. They don't support the types of gun control that would actually make a big difference like widespread gun bans and strict restrictions on carry. As an example, a ban on handguns except for law enforcement was 27 for 72 against according to Gallup. Handguns account for 80% of gun homicides.
Even the assault weapon ban has flipped to more opposed than support. And maybe it will flip back to being slightly favored after this shooting in Orlando and Clinton calling for the ban. But all rifles, not just assault rifles, account for a measly 3% of gun homicides according to FBI data. Why are you so sure banning guns is the solution? Take the guns away from ALL citizens because of one crime? Under that logic we might as well ban ALL muslims. You think a person who does something like this cannot find a solution to stricter gun regulations? Do you think the shooter would have gotten away with 50 kill in a redneck bar at Texas or a rap bar in detroit? How did strict gun laws work out in france at stoping terrorism?
One crime?
One crime?
There is, on average, a mass shooting (4+ casualties) in the United States of America every day. That was the case in 2015, and so far so good (sarcasm) in 2016.
And comparing it to Muslims attacking us is absurd. There are tens of thousands of gun deaths (homicides and suicides) in the United States every year. The vast, vast majority of them are caused by non-Muslims. Muslims are the least of our worries when it comes to the American death toll.
We should definitely note that this newest attacker was indeed an ISIS sympathizer, but we also need to educate ourselves and recognize that the gun violence conversation goes much, much deeper than just Muslim extremism. The overwhelming majority of American gun violence is due to a dangerous mixing of social inequality and prejudice. If we want to reduce gun violence in America, we need better gun education in this country, we need to be lifting people out of poverty, we need to stop inappropriately alienating and discriminating against people because of their racial or sexual identity, and we need to have reasonably tough gun control regulations.
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People referring to Paris attacks or the shooting in German and Finnish schools are misguided.
Of course, you will always have commandos of terrorists managing to get the necessary weaponry to commit their slaughters. That's what happened in both Paris attacks, or in Norway with Breivik.
The problem with the US is that you don't need to be a high profile terrorist with excellent connexions to commit a mass murder. Any lunatic can. And even though it's possible, it's very hard in Europe to get hold of an assault rifle and nearly impossible without a lot of connexions.
My second point and where the NRA is really criminally hypocrite is that their main argument is that people need to have guns so that they can defend themselves in this kind of attack. I think it's bullocks, but even if we give them the benefit of the doubt, why in that case do they push against regulation on assault rifles?
Nobody EVER will walk in the street or go to restaurant with an assault rifle just in case. Maybe with a gun, but not with an automatic weapon. So the automatic weapon will, in those shootings, always be on the side of the lunatics and the criminals.
Personally I would be terrified to live in a country where an antisocial lunatic idiot can walk in a shop and buy a war weapon. I simply wouldn't feel safe.
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But it was no assault rifle and it was only a semi automatic. Comparable to a sling shot! Didn't you pay attention to this thread?
And you really need those for hunting! At least in the US.
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On June 13 2016 19:39 mahrgell wrote:
But it was no assault rifle and it was only a semi automatic. Comparable to a sling shot! Didn't you pay attention to this thread?
And you really need those for hunting! At least in the US.
Yeah... 
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Zurich15313 Posts
On June 13 2016 19:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The problem with the US is that you don't need to be a high profile terrorist with excellent connexions to commit a mass murder. Any lunatic can. And even though it's possible, it's very hard in Europe to get hold of an assault rifle and nearly impossible without a lot of connexions.
You can legally buy the same gun used in Orlando in many European countries, including France. A gun ownership license isn't particularly hard to get. I am mentioning this over and over again because it seems a common misconception that guns like this are banned in Europe. Far from it.
The difference is that Euro countries have sensible gun control that appears to be doing a pretty good job at preventing any lunatic to legally purchase firearms, as you correctly point out.
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On June 13 2016 19:44 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 19:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The problem with the US is that you don't need to be a high profile terrorist with excellent connexions to commit a mass murder. Any lunatic can. And even though it's possible, it's very hard in Europe to get hold of an assault rifle and nearly impossible without a lot of connexions. You can legally buy the same gun used in Orlando in many European countries, including France. A gun ownership license isn't particularly hard to get. I am mentioning this over and over again because it seems a common misconception that guns like this are banned in Europe. Far from it. The difference is that Euro countries have sensible gun control that appears to be doing a pretty good job at preventing any lunatic to legally purchase firearms, as you correctly point out.
Genuinely interested but where and how do you get to purchase a semi automatic rifle legally in France? As far as I know the best you get in France unless you are in the army is a simple gun (police and some security jobs) and as a civilian, with a license, a hunting rifle.
here is an article about the weapon used. I understand it is an AR-15.
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Zurich15313 Posts
Well, I have been in France shooting AR-15s. My French is pretty much useless so I won't be able to pull out the right text of law, but it's certainly entirely possible in Germany, and France's gun laws are considered a bit laxer than Germany's.
What you would have to do? Get a gun ownership license. Easiest way would be to join a competition shooting club. After that, go to a gun store with your license and buy an AR-15.
Situation in Germany:
On October 09 2015 15:32 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 00:02 Kaethis wrote:
Isn't German legislation for actually getting a gun incredibly sctrict though? I remember that you can't even own one of these airsoft guns without a license and getting a license requires both you being over a certain age and having gone through an extensive psych evaluation. Depends on what incredibly strict means. In comparison to the US - sure. But that has more to do with German love for order and rules than guns specifically. Access to a driver license is also incredible strict in Germany. In fact, it's arguably easier (certainly less expensive!) to get a gun ownership license than it is to get a driver's license in Germany. Requirements are, in short: Necessity, acceptable reasons are: Hunting, sports, collecting Age: 25yo or 18yo with evaluation passed Proficiency: Passed exam, proof of regular exercise In the most common case of recreational target shooting that would mean you have to practice regularly at the range (rule of thumb is about 15 practice sessions), and pass the proficiency exam to get your license. What most people (in Germany) don't realize is that at that point you are free to get your AR-15, which many over here falsely believe to be illegal. I have written about this before: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/241586-germany-vi-gun-ownership
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24946679
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On June 13 2016 20:41 zatic wrote:Well, I have been in France shooting AR-15s. My French is pretty much useless so I won't be able to pull out the right text of law, but it's certainly entirely possible in Germany, and France's gun laws are considered a bit laxer than Germany's. What you would have to do? Get a gun ownership license. Easiest way would be to join a competition shooting club. After that, go to a gun store with your license and buy an AR-15. Situation in Germany: Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 15:32 zatic wrote:On October 09 2015 00:02 Kaethis wrote:
Isn't German legislation for actually getting a gun incredibly sctrict though? I remember that you can't even own one of these airsoft guns without a license and getting a license requires both you being over a certain age and having gone through an extensive psych evaluation. Depends on what incredibly strict means. In comparison to the US - sure. But that has more to do with German love for order and rules than guns specifically. Access to a driver license is also incredible strict in Germany. In fact, it's arguably easier (certainly less expensive!) to get a gun ownership license than it is to get a driver's license in Germany. Requirements are, in short: Necessity, acceptable reasons are: Hunting, sports, collecting Age: 25yo or 18yo with evaluation passed Proficiency: Passed exam, proof of regular exercise In the most common case of recreational target shooting that would mean you have to practice regularly at the range (rule of thumb is about 15 practice sessions), and pass the proficiency exam to get your license. What most people (in Germany) don't realize is that at that point you are free to get your AR-15, which many over here falsely believe to be illegal. I have written about this before: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/241586-germany-vi-gun-ownership http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24946679
I checked and it looks like you are right : you can possess an AR-15 in France. My bad.
That being said the legislation is incredibly strict.
As a lunatic kid or a potential terrorist, your chances to get one are exactly 0. Also from the moment you get one, you are basically controlled all the time by the administration (you have to justify its use by saying when and where you use it, you must prove you have a safe, you can only have a certain amount of ammo, etc...) Not great for a terrorist.
But yeah, I learnt something today. 
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Just saying, while reading this topic I finally understood what Derrida meant when he said that deconstruction was "what is happening [...] especially in the US".
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On June 13 2016 21:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 20:41 zatic wrote:Well, I have been in France shooting AR-15s. My French is pretty much useless so I won't be able to pull out the right text of law, but it's certainly entirely possible in Germany, and France's gun laws are considered a bit laxer than Germany's. What you would have to do? Get a gun ownership license. Easiest way would be to join a competition shooting club. After that, go to a gun store with your license and buy an AR-15. Situation in Germany: On October 09 2015 15:32 zatic wrote:On October 09 2015 00:02 Kaethis wrote:
Isn't German legislation for actually getting a gun incredibly sctrict though? I remember that you can't even own one of these airsoft guns without a license and getting a license requires both you being over a certain age and having gone through an extensive psych evaluation. Depends on what incredibly strict means. In comparison to the US - sure. But that has more to do with German love for order and rules than guns specifically. Access to a driver license is also incredible strict in Germany. In fact, it's arguably easier (certainly less expensive!) to get a gun ownership license than it is to get a driver's license in Germany. Requirements are, in short: Necessity, acceptable reasons are: Hunting, sports, collecting Age: 25yo or 18yo with evaluation passed Proficiency: Passed exam, proof of regular exercise In the most common case of recreational target shooting that would mean you have to practice regularly at the range (rule of thumb is about 15 practice sessions), and pass the proficiency exam to get your license. What most people (in Germany) don't realize is that at that point you are free to get your AR-15, which many over here falsely believe to be illegal. I have written about this before: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/241586-germany-vi-gun-ownership http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24946679 I checked and it looks like you are right : you can possess an AR-15 in France. My bad. That being said the legislation is incredibly strict. As a lunatic kid or a potential terrorist, your chances to get one are exactly 0. Also from the moment you get one, you are basically controlled all the time by the administration (you have to justify its use by saying when and where you use it, you must prove you have a safe, you can only have a certain amount of ammo, etc...) Not great for a terrorist. But yeah, I learnt something today.
Exactly 0? Let's not be so categorical, you technically COULD anyway. I agree that strict is good, though.
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On June 13 2016 22:53 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 21:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 13 2016 20:41 zatic wrote:Well, I have been in France shooting AR-15s. My French is pretty much useless so I won't be able to pull out the right text of law, but it's certainly entirely possible in Germany, and France's gun laws are considered a bit laxer than Germany's. What you would have to do? Get a gun ownership license. Easiest way would be to join a competition shooting club. After that, go to a gun store with your license and buy an AR-15. Situation in Germany: On October 09 2015 15:32 zatic wrote:On October 09 2015 00:02 Kaethis wrote:
Isn't German legislation for actually getting a gun incredibly sctrict though? I remember that you can't even own one of these airsoft guns without a license and getting a license requires both you being over a certain age and having gone through an extensive psych evaluation. Depends on what incredibly strict means. In comparison to the US - sure. But that has more to do with German love for order and rules than guns specifically. Access to a driver license is also incredible strict in Germany. In fact, it's arguably easier (certainly less expensive!) to get a gun ownership license than it is to get a driver's license in Germany. Requirements are, in short: Necessity, acceptable reasons are: Hunting, sports, collecting Age: 25yo or 18yo with evaluation passed Proficiency: Passed exam, proof of regular exercise In the most common case of recreational target shooting that would mean you have to practice regularly at the range (rule of thumb is about 15 practice sessions), and pass the proficiency exam to get your license. What most people (in Germany) don't realize is that at that point you are free to get your AR-15, which many over here falsely believe to be illegal. I have written about this before: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/241586-germany-vi-gun-ownership http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24946679 I checked and it looks like you are right : you can possess an AR-15 in France. My bad. That being said the legislation is incredibly strict. As a lunatic kid or a potential terrorist, your chances to get one are exactly 0. Also from the moment you get one, you are basically controlled all the time by the administration (you have to justify its use by saying when and where you use it, you must prove you have a safe, you can only have a certain amount of ammo, etc...) Not great for a terrorist. But yeah, I learnt something today. Exactly 0? Let's not be so categorical, you technically COULD anyway. I agree that strict is good, though.
Well nothing is 0. But from what I understand, you have to get all your documents, and go regularly to a club for 6 months, who then check if they think you are responsible enough to have a weapon, and then report regularly to the authorities to prove you are still exercising your sport etc etc...
I don't think your average Virginia Tech idiot or some crazy fundamentalist would successfully pass all those steps.
I don't really understand why the French law allows this exception at all, but it's very well regulated. I think clubs should keep the weapons and rent them to people for the time of the shooting. But then again, I don't find firearm entertaining, cool or attractive whatsoever, and I guess I would have an other opinion on the matter if I did.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 13 2016 19:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
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The problem with the US is that you don't need to be a high profile terrorist with excellent connexions to commit a mass murder. Any lunatic can. And even though it's possible, it's very hard in Europe to get hold of an assault rifle and nearly impossible without a lot of connexions.
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Ehm, just to show you how easy is to get a gun in Czech Republic yet we don't kill each other every day.
In Czech Republic you have to be 21+(for the purpose of AR-15 gun), without any law problems and be reliable(blah blah blah, don't know proper English terms, let's say running around naked and drunk doesn't help). You learn 500 questions(driving license test has 800+ questions), show safe manipulation with a pistol, a shotgun and a rifle(usually only the pistol because time), hit a target on 10 meters with a pistol, 4 out of 5 hits required(though usually the practice shots(3) are counted into it as well, so technically 4 out of 8, but that depends on the place, time...) and the same amount from a rifle on 25m range(you can lean(?) your gun so it's actually easier than with the pistol) and then you have to hit the target with a shotgun(ehm...). In some cases only pistol shooting is required as there is too many adepts and not enough time 
So, now you have a license saying you can own a gun which is easier to obtain than a driving license(and cheaper to get).
Prepare for that nice huge WTF moment. Now you can buy ANY weapon that is not fully automated(semi ar-15 is ok) and get it with CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT. Not kidding(the only carry license in here). So if you have a proper coat you can walk around with fully loaded ar-15 under it. (there are some restrictions like it shouldn't be easily visible that you carry a gun etc.) You want a .50 BMG rigle? Carry? Yeah, your choice. I know some people owning short version of SA-58(Tactical 858) with a carry license.
And yet we have only 1 bigger shooting where everyone was too lenient(?) to take away guns when family was urging Police to take an action. The last big killer before was a lady with a lorry truck when we had a gun ban for an ordinary civilian. If you want to kill a lot of people there are other ways than to buy a gun(she lent a truck and drove through a tram stop, she drove around several times waiting for more people).
Yeah, sure, the hardest part is to get the money to buy a proper weapon. Otherwise - assault rifle? Sure. LMG? Sure. anti-material rifle? Sure. As long as it is semi-automatic you can get whatever you like here
Edit> the process was shorten, e.g. you need to register the gun.
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On June 14 2016 00:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 22:53 Djzapz wrote:On June 13 2016 21:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 13 2016 20:41 zatic wrote:Well, I have been in France shooting AR-15s. My French is pretty much useless so I won't be able to pull out the right text of law, but it's certainly entirely possible in Germany, and France's gun laws are considered a bit laxer than Germany's. What you would have to do? Get a gun ownership license. Easiest way would be to join a competition shooting club. After that, go to a gun store with your license and buy an AR-15. Situation in Germany: On October 09 2015 15:32 zatic wrote:On October 09 2015 00:02 Kaethis wrote:
Isn't German legislation for actually getting a gun incredibly sctrict though? I remember that you can't even own one of these airsoft guns without a license and getting a license requires both you being over a certain age and having gone through an extensive psych evaluation. Depends on what incredibly strict means. In comparison to the US - sure. But that has more to do with German love for order and rules than guns specifically. Access to a driver license is also incredible strict in Germany. In fact, it's arguably easier (certainly less expensive!) to get a gun ownership license than it is to get a driver's license in Germany. Requirements are, in short: Necessity, acceptable reasons are: Hunting, sports, collecting Age: 25yo or 18yo with evaluation passed Proficiency: Passed exam, proof of regular exercise In the most common case of recreational target shooting that would mean you have to practice regularly at the range (rule of thumb is about 15 practice sessions), and pass the proficiency exam to get your license. What most people (in Germany) don't realize is that at that point you are free to get your AR-15, which many over here falsely believe to be illegal. I have written about this before: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/241586-germany-vi-gun-ownership http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24946679 I checked and it looks like you are right : you can possess an AR-15 in France. My bad. That being said the legislation is incredibly strict. As a lunatic kid or a potential terrorist, your chances to get one are exactly 0. Also from the moment you get one, you are basically controlled all the time by the administration (you have to justify its use by saying when and where you use it, you must prove you have a safe, you can only have a certain amount of ammo, etc...) Not great for a terrorist. But yeah, I learnt something today. Exactly 0? Let's not be so categorical, you technically COULD anyway. I agree that strict is good, though. Well nothing is 0. But from what I understand, you have to get all your documents, and go regularly to a club for 6 months, who then check if they think you are responsible enough to have a weapon, and then report regularly to the authorities to prove you are still exercising your sport etc etc... I don't think your average Virginia Tech idiot or some crazy fundamentalist would successfully pass all those steps. I don't really understand why the French law allows this exception at all, but it's very well regulated. I think clubs should keep the weapons and rent them to people for the time of the shooting. But then again, I don't find firearm entertaining, cool or attractive whatsoever, and I guess I would have an other opinion on the matter if I did.
As I've said before, I'm a gun owner and I struggle to find a good justification for owning these weapons, even though I know I myself am no threat to anybody. I have a few at home, one of which could be considered a particularly "dangerous" weapon in the wrong hands - and I'm thinking like why would I need this? It's fun but in a difficult political climate, easy access to that kind of firearm is not necessarily a good thing. It's fun for me and I enjoy shooting it as a hobby, but it comes with societal consequences.
Taking AR15's and similar firearms out of the hands of millions of Americans is straight up impossible at this point though. But ffs why would you need that at your home? I think having them locked up at the range and not being allowed to take them out except with some annoying paperwork is a perfectly reasonable arrangement. The gun culture in the US, and even to an extent here in Canada, is absolutely ridiculous. These are people who are vehemently opposed to legislation which have the side effect of negatively affecting "law-abiding citizens", and still support the "muslim ban" which PROFOUNDLY affects other "law-abiding citizens".
I'll have a handgun soon to do some target practice for fun... I would be willing to suffer through the inconveniences and the cost of having to keep it at the range, locked up in a secure location. Putting a reasonable, or even slightly excessive number of barriers to entry to a sport/hobby that's dangerous is perfectly fine. I enjoy shooting targets enough that I'll jump through those hoops. They obviously dissuade some shooters.
And the NRA will say shit like "criminals will still get guns on the black market", and to an extent that's true. Some definitely will. But on one hand, the scope of the black market in the US undoubtedly has its roots in the scope of the legitimate market. Easier to steal guns when they're all over the place, and it's also much easier for a gun to slip through the cracks and end up in the wrong hands when they're not being tracked. But on top of that, regulations fucking work. The shootings that take place with fully automatic in the US are practically non-existent since the automatic weapons ban. Now you CAN get fully automatic weapons in the US, but you need a collectors license. No one cares to do that. Making the most dangerous weapons hard to acquire will lead some shooters to use shittier weapons instead of AR15's, at least in some cases.
81% of gun related deaths in Canada are suicides though, and it seems highly probable that most of those could've been avoided if the guns were harder to get access to. So it's a hugely complicated issue. It seems important on one hand to keep dangerous items away from people... but they'll still drink and drive. They'll still do all this stupid shit. So I was talking about all these administrative cockadoodles that you can do to put guns farther away from people, and to an extent at least in Canada it seems likes a lot of work and inconvenience and money to spend to save, ultimately, not a lot of lives. First: mental health and background checks.
Summary: What the fuck
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On June 14 2016 00:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 19:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
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The problem with the US is that you don't need to be a high profile terrorist with excellent connexions to commit a mass murder. Any lunatic can. And even though it's possible, it's very hard in Europe to get hold of an assault rifle and nearly impossible without a lot of connexions.
... Ehm, just to show you how easy is to get a gun in Czech Republic yet we don't kill each other every day. In Czech Republic you have to be 21+(for the purpose of AR-15 gun), without any law problems and be reliable(blah blah blah, don't know proper English terms, let's say running around naked and drunk doesn't help). You learn 500 questions(driving license test has 800+ questions), show safe manipulation with a pistol, a shotgun and a rifle(usually only the pistol because time), hit a target on 10 meters with a pistol, 4 out of 5 hits required(though usually the practice shots(3) are counted into it as well, so technically 4 out of 8, but that depends on the place, time...) and the same amount from a rifle on 25m range(you can lean(?) your gun so it's actually easier than with the pistol) and then you have to hit the target with a shotgun(ehm...). In some cases only pistol shooting is required as there is too many adepts and not enough time So, now you have a license saying you can own a gun which is easier to obtain than a driving license(and cheaper to get). Prepare for that nice huge WTF moment. Now you can buy ANY weapon that is not fully automated(semi ar-15 is ok) and get it with CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT. Not kidding(the only carry license in here). So if you have a proper coat you can walk around with fully loaded ar-15 under it. (there are some restrictions like it shouldn't be easily visible that you carry a gun etc.) You want a .50 BMG rigle? Carry? Yeah, your choice. I know some people owning short version of SA-58(Tactical 858) with a carry license. And yet we have only 1 bigger shooting where everyone was too lenient(?) to take away guns when family was urging Police to take an action. The last big killer before was a lady with a lorry truck when we had a gun ban for an ordinary civilian. If you want to kill a lot of people there are other ways than to buy a gun(she lent a truck and drove through a tram stop, she drove around several times waiting for more people). Yeah, sure, the hardest part is to get the money to buy a proper weapon. Otherwise - assault rifle? Sure. LMG? Sure. anti-material rifle? Sure. As long as it is semi-automatic you can get whatever you like here Edit> the process was shorten, e.g. you need to register the gun.
Yeah except the Czech Republic isnt exactly a melting pot of ethnic diversity. Also Czechs are generally cool and most of Europe isnt as prudish as the US is.
If it isnt a problem you dont need regulation. If it is a problem you do need it, if you dont need it and you still have regulation that is also fine. Better safe than sorry.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On June 14 2016 01:29 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 00:53 deacon.frost wrote:On June 13 2016 19:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
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The problem with the US is that you don't need to be a high profile terrorist with excellent connexions to commit a mass murder. Any lunatic can. And even though it's possible, it's very hard in Europe to get hold of an assault rifle and nearly impossible without a lot of connexions.
... Ehm, just to show you how easy is to get a gun in Czech Republic yet we don't kill each other every day. In Czech Republic you have to be 21+(for the purpose of AR-15 gun), without any law problems and be reliable(blah blah blah, don't know proper English terms, let's say running around naked and drunk doesn't help). You learn 500 questions(driving license test has 800+ questions), show safe manipulation with a pistol, a shotgun and a rifle(usually only the pistol because time), hit a target on 10 meters with a pistol, 4 out of 5 hits required(though usually the practice shots(3) are counted into it as well, so technically 4 out of 8, but that depends on the place, time...) and the same amount from a rifle on 25m range(you can lean(?) your gun so it's actually easier than with the pistol) and then you have to hit the target with a shotgun(ehm...). In some cases only pistol shooting is required as there is too many adepts and not enough time So, now you have a license saying you can own a gun which is easier to obtain than a driving license(and cheaper to get). Prepare for that nice huge WTF moment. Now you can buy ANY weapon that is not fully automated(semi ar-15 is ok) and get it with CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT. Not kidding(the only carry license in here). So if you have a proper coat you can walk around with fully loaded ar-15 under it. (there are some restrictions like it shouldn't be easily visible that you carry a gun etc.) You want a .50 BMG rigle? Carry? Yeah, your choice. I know some people owning short version of SA-58(Tactical 858) with a carry license. And yet we have only 1 bigger shooting where everyone was too lenient(?) to take away guns when family was urging Police to take an action. The last big killer before was a lady with a lorry truck when we had a gun ban for an ordinary civilian. If you want to kill a lot of people there are other ways than to buy a gun(she lent a truck and drove through a tram stop, she drove around several times waiting for more people). Yeah, sure, the hardest part is to get the money to buy a proper weapon. Otherwise - assault rifle? Sure. LMG? Sure. anti-material rifle? Sure. As long as it is semi-automatic you can get whatever you like here Edit> the process was shorten, e.g. you need to register the gun. Yeah except the Czech Republic isnt exactly a melting pot of ethnic diversity. Also Czechs are generally cool and most of Europe isnt as prudish as the US is. If it isnt a problem you dont need regulation. If it is a problem you do need it, if you dont need it and you still have regulation that is also fine. Better safe than sorry.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't change the laws, if my sources are correct then in FLorida is even registering guns forbidden(you cannot make lists but again, I am in Czech Republic, not in US ), there needs to be a change. But banning guns isn't the change, I would start with the system we have here. Meaning your physician needs to approve you otherwise you go to a psychologist(which is just a money sink IMO, but whatever), then a written test, safe manipulation, shooting test. Then you need every weapon register. I think it's a good start without any banning.
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On June 13 2016 12:40 dontforgetosmile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 12:38 Nebuchad wrote:On June 13 2016 11:55 dontforgetosmile wrote:On June 13 2016 06:09 Simberto wrote:
Well, american gun culture is just utterly alien to me, and a lot of other europeans. Feel free to explain it better. So far i have heard "It is really not like your impression of it".
So i will write my impression now, and you can feel free to correct it:
I am ignoring the obvious reason ones here (Hunting, defense against animals in wilderness) that are not really something most people object and which are also quite common in europe.
Reasons to own guns are usually named as one of the two:
(1) Recreational
(2) Self-Defense
(3) Protection against the evil government
Recreational means shooting stuff for fun and possibly roasting bacon on rifles.
Self-Defense does not actually appear to work as far as i know, as you are far more likely to be in danger if you own a gun than if you don't.
Protection against the government is just silly.
The big cons are:
(a) A lot of guys get intentionally shot.
(b) a lot of people get accidentally shot.
The reason for (a) is that if there are more guns around, more crimes involve guns, and a crime involving guns has a much higher chance of getting people shot. The reason for (b) is similar. If there are more guns around, it is much more likely that a five-year old will shoot his sister.
To me, the cons just outweigh the pros massively. Everyone is more safe with fewer guns around, and i don't see what is gained if you have more guns around. Please explain this american gun culture in terms a european can understand, because to me it just seems that a bunch of people are incredibly irrational in a way that makes no sense whatsoever to me and that i simply can not comprehend. (Though to be honest you do have Donald Trump as a presidential candidate, so maybe that is indeed that reason) think about how absurdly dangerous it is driving a car at freeway speeds, yet no one hesitates to do it even with small children in the car. Which is why we're all grateful that the automobile industry lobby never came around to the idea that it would be against freedom to force people to have a license before they are allowed to drive, by the way. that's irrelevant to the fact that more people still die as a result from cars than die from firearms (aside from suicide).
Poor argument with no context. Your example plays right into the hands of myself and others, because the things you need to legally drive a car (inspection, insurance, license, testing, renewal, and very clear laws) are EXACTLY what is needed for firearms. Why people oppose this, I'll never know. Yes cars kill people, but it is generally not intentional, and cars don't usually have the ability to kill 50+ people in confined spaces. I hate hate hate the car vs gun "argument" because it's like comparing apples to airplanes in regards to potential danger.
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Consequences of amending the Constitution and/or banning guns:
Pro: Potentially save tens of thousands of American lives every year.
Con: Hurt the feelings of people who like guns.
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The amount of flimsy justifications on the pro gun side is baffling.
Just admit it, you like having a nice shiny new gun. That's the reason the NRA exist. Defense has nothing to do with it. Defense against tyranny surely is the most irrelevant argument possible in the 21st century.
Cars kill people? See Ayaz's post.
So you like having a nice new murder weapon. Good for you. Innocents shouldn't have to die because of it. Children shouldn't have to grow up with the knowledge that when they were 2 they accidentally killed their mother.
But as long as you enjoy being able to buy a nice new gun, who cares, right?
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i got dudes at work that think its impossible to kill 50 people with an ar-15 in a night club.
and how is cars v guns even an argument lol, we need cars for travel/work, u def do not need a gun for that.
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On June 13 2016 19:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 14:05 GoTuNk! wrote:On June 13 2016 14:01 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Americans only support gun regulations that will do close to nothing to reduce the number of gun homicides and only so long as they don't interfere with their ability to own firearms. Like universal background checks. They don't support the types of gun control that would actually make a big difference like widespread gun bans and strict restrictions on carry. As an example, a ban on handguns except for law enforcement was 27 for 72 against according to Gallup. Handguns account for 80% of gun homicides.
Even the assault weapon ban has flipped to more opposed than support. And maybe it will flip back to being slightly favored after this shooting in Orlando and Clinton calling for the ban. But all rifles, not just assault rifles, account for a measly 3% of gun homicides according to FBI data. Why are you so sure banning guns is the solution? Take the guns away from ALL citizens because of one crime? Under that logic we might as well ban ALL muslims. You think a person who does something like this cannot find a solution to stricter gun regulations? Do you think the shooter would have gotten away with 50 kill in a redneck bar at Texas or a rap bar in detroit? How did strict gun laws work out in france at stoping terrorism? One crime? One crime? There is, on average, a mass shooting (4+ casualties) in the United States of America every day. That was the case in 2015, and so far so good (sarcasm) in 2016.
This is the vox.com metric where there doesn't even have to be a fatality for it to be counted. Indeed, a large number of the incidents resulted in no deaths. It would be more appropriate to think of most of those as "shootings" than "mass shootings" and you can see there must be a difference somewhere when top news networks aren't scrambling to get daily coverage in the vein of Orlando, San Bernardino, etc. That category includes things like drive-by shootings, drunk people having a bar disagreement, criminals shooting at each other in the street, domestic violence. That's different than someone deliberately wanting to kill a bunch of (random) innocent people.
Do basic dimensional analysis, there's 330 million people in the US, 365 days a year, one "vox.com shooting" per day, you're talking about one such shooting per million people, and if the cutoff is 4 people being shot, that's 0.0004%. Sounds a lot less threatening than "every day," doesn't it? The reason we don't like mass shootings is qualitative. It's not because there's a statistically high risk of dying from it. If that were our concern, the country would only spend money on cancer and heart disease. It's because we think society is a place where defenseless people should never get massacred.
On June 13 2016 19:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:And comparing it to Muslims attacking us is absurd. There are tens of thousands of gun deaths (homicides and suicides) in the United States every year. The vast, vast majority of them are caused by non-Muslims. Muslims are the least of our worries when it comes to the American death toll.
2/3 of those are suicides, which, while a problem, is a different kind of problem than someone going to a public place with the explicit intention of killing as many people as possible.
On June 14 2016 02:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Consequences of amending the Constitution and/or banning guns:
Pro: Potentially save tens of thousands of American lives every year.
Con: Hurt the feelings of people who like guns.
You must know there's no magic piece of paper you can write on to make 500 million guns just disappear. In reality, you would be taking away people's right to defend themselves, and you could just as easily end up like Mexico or Brazil when it comes to crime.
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EPT
