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Germany (VI): Gun ownership

Blogs > zatic
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zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15017 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 06:31:59
July 08 2011 08:37 GMT
#1
German misconceptions about gun ownership

This edition of random facts of knowledge about Germany will hopefully clear up some I would argue myths about gun ownership that are very popular in Germany. This article maybe more educational to my fellow Germans than foreign readers. Well, at least I hope so.

I have had a draft of this article sitting around for awhile now, but recent events forced my to kind of rush it now. Apologies that this piece lacks an overarching story and a conclusion.

Myths about gun ownership. Considering Germanys history, it is not hard to understand, that the Germans might have some rather unusual views on war, peace, and relating to that, gun policy. This is fine of course, but unfortunately a lot of common misconceptions go along with these views.

Germans are incredibly proud of their strict gun laws, and the supposedly low number of guns that exist in Germany. Have a look at any topic where guns are discussed on TL, and you will find a German pacifist voicing disbelief how a US forum poster can have an assault rifle at home. How can something like this ever be made legal? An impossible thought, for most Germans.

In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households.
Of course, that is only the raw numbers, although it is quite impressive on their own. Lets look at the supposedly strict gun ownership laws.

It is true that it is not easy to obtain a gun ownership license in Germany. But "not easy" is very relative. It's not easy to get a driver's license in Germany, either. In fact, getting your driver's license is about as hard as getting your gun ownership license. You have to pass a test on gun safety and proficiency, which takes more time and about as many lessons than getting your driver's license, but not by a lot. If the authorities have doubts that your are fit to own guns, they can ask for a psychological evaluation before you get your license. Applicants 25 years or younger always need to pass this evaluation. If you have a criminal record the authorities might deny you the application anyways.

That's basically it. Once you are there, you are free to buy as much steel as you want. With some restrictions (This is concerning competition shooters, which account for the vast majority of gun owners): You are allowed a new purchase every 6 months, and it must be of a different caliber than your existing. Also you will have to argue necessity for owning a gun. For a recreational shooter that means regular practice, which might get difficult the more guns you own. Apart from that however, there is no reason why you couldn't get that semi automatic assault rifle. Or more than one. I myself went shooting with a range of guns including M-16, HK41, Desert Eagle .50AE, SG551, all kinds of semi automatic pistols and revolvers in good old Germany, yet for some reason people here have a hard time believing that.

There are additional safety requirements that gun holders must meet. Guns have to be stored in gun safes, and may only be transported in a case. Under pressure from a recent school shooting, a law has been passed that permits authorities to verify if gun owners satisfy the safety requirements, however that law is still being contested in several court cases.

There are certain bans on specific guns, which have been made for political reasons. For example even though converted semi-auto assault rifles are not generally disallowed, the AK47 and its variants have been banned due to their perceived connection to terrorism. Similarly shotguns with pistol grip (but not shot guns in general) have been banned because of a notorious school shooting in 2002, where the shooter was carrying one, even though he didn't use it (the actual shooting was all done with a regular Glock 17 pistol).

The public outrage that regularly occurs over events like school shootings shows the disconnect from what the general public believes to what the law actually says. And to the reality in Germany for that matter. This is where I like to come back to the opening of this blog. This article is not meant to say that Germans are a violent people, or that gun violence is a problem in Germany. In fact what I want to do is argue the opposite: Germans are so embraced in pacifist ideals that the very notion that their country hosts millions of guns and gun owners is offensive to the point that it will often be not believed or flat out denied.

Sources

Gun ownership survey
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/full/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-EN.pdf
About gun laws generally
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany



Random bits of knowledge about Germany

Ep5: Lines
Ep4: Bild and Fear
Ep3: Stereotypes
Ep2: Sauna
Ep1: Small Talk

Original post:
+ Show Spoiler +



On July 08 2011 17:37 zatic wrote:
German misconceptions about peace and pacifism

This edition of random facts of knowledge about Germany will hopefully clear up some I would argue myths about pacifism that are very popular in Germany. This article maybe more educational to my fellow Germans than foreign readers. Well, at least I hope so.

I have had a draft of this article sitting around for awhile now, but recent events forced my to kind of rush it now. Apologies that this piece lacks an overarching story and a conclusion.

Myths about peace and pacifism. Considering Germanys history, it is not hard to understand, that the Germans might have some rather unusual views on war, peace, and pacifism. This is fine of course, but unfortunately a lot of common misconceptions go along with these views.

The first topic will be about German gun laws and gun ownership.

Germans are incredibly proud of their strict gun laws, and the supposedly low number of guns that exist in Germany. Have a look at any topic where guns are discussed on TL, and you will find a German pacifist voicing disbelief how a US forum poster can have an assault rifle at home. How can something like this ever be made legal? An impossible thought, for most Germans.

In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households.
Of course, that is only the raw numbers, although it is quite impressive on their own. Lets look at the supposedly strict gun ownership laws.

It is true that it is not easy to obtain a gun license in Germany. But "not easy" is very relative. It's not easy to get a driver's license in Germany, either. In fact, getting your driver's license is just little easier than getting your gun ownership. You have to pass a test on gun safety and proficiency, which takes more time and lessons than getting your driver's license, but not by a lot. If the authorities have doubts that your are fit to own guns, they can ask for a psychological evaluation before you get your license. Applicants 25 years or younger always need to pass this evaluation. If you have a criminal record the authorities might deny you the application anyways.

That's basically it. Once you are there, you are free to buy as much steel as you want. With some restrictions (This is concerning recreational shooters): You are allowed a new purchase every 6 months, and it must be of a different caliber than your existing. Apart from that however, there is no reason why you couldn't get that semi automatic assault rifle. Or more than one. I myself went shooting with a range of guns inclluding M-16, HK41, Desert Eagle .50AE, SG551, all kinds of semi automatic pistols and revolvers in good old Germany, yet for some reason people here have a hard time believing that.

There are certain bans on specific guns, which have been made for political reasons. For example even though assault rifles are generally allowed, the AK47 and it's variants have been banned due to their perceived connection to terrorism. Similarly shotguns with pistol grip (but not shot guns in general) have been banned because of a notorious school shooting in 2002, where the shooter was carrying one, even though he didn't use it. The public outrage over that he was able to own such a gun shows you the disconnect from what the general public believes to what the law actually says.

Another in my opinion misconceived notion is that of the peaceful European Union. The EU is so closely connected to peace in the German mind that arguing against that notion will make people here seriously doubt your sanity. It is undenieable that one goal of the EU was a peaceful Europe. What brought us peace however is the European integration, not the institution of the EU. Yes, it certainly helped on the process. However a popular claim I keep hearing is that were the EU to fail or to be abolish, we would return to our pre war habit of invading each other every few years. What a ridiculous idea.

Looking at the EU as it is today, I don't see its peacful nature anyway. The Lisbon treaty specificially demands each signing member to progressivily enhance their military capabilities. How peaceful is an institution that requires armament and military spending? In addition to that it contains a mutual military assistance clause and asks member states to supply military forces to a European command. It also allows European troops to be deployed under that command in 3rd party countries within the war agianst Terror. These deployments are not to be sanctioned by parliament and their rightfulness not to be checked by the European high court. This is so ridiculously against our very constitution that I really can't understand how Germany did sign this treaty in good faith.

From another perspective, if you look at the provisions and requirements for military action of German forces according to the Lisbon treaty, German rulers have had a harder time using military force during the 2nd German Reich and the Weimar Republic. Even the Kaiser had to ask parliament for a declaration of war and an approval of military spending.

These are the two very common misconceptions about peace I encounter when talking with fellow Germans regularly. I am happy to expand on the topics in the comments as I didn't have the time to flesh out this article as much as I wanted to.

Sources

Gun ownership survey
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/full/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-EN.pdf

Relevant section of the Lisbon treaty
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Consolidated_version_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union/Title_V:_General_Provisions_on_the_Union's_External_Action_Service_and_Specific_Provisions_on_the_Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy#Article_42



Random bits of knowledge about Germany

Ep5: Lines
Ep4: Bild and Fear
Ep3: Stereotypes
Ep2: Sauna
Ep1: Small Talk




***
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
July 08 2011 08:39 GMT
#2
Wow, Germany struck me as a country that wouldn't be heavily armed o_O 1 in 3 is a very surprisingly high number to me.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
snowbird
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Germany2044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-08 09:21:55
July 08 2011 08:46 GMT
#3
Didn't know about that at all.

Very educational indeed, thanks!
@riotsnowbird
drooL
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United Kingdom2108 Posts
July 08 2011 09:00 GMT
#4
definitely educational for me, i didn't know that there were so many firearms in civil possession in germany :o
@nowSimon
Morfildur
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany4849 Posts
July 08 2011 09:03 GMT
#5
Would be nice to see a statistics per state. While i have no doubt that especially bavaria and the high-population-density parts in the west have a tradition of owning firearms, i haven't found a single person here in the north near the danish border that owned a gun or knew someone owning a gun (except of course police officers).

Maybe it's because due to the history of the area we are more connected to the vikings with their swords and axes. Most people i know own show- or exposition-swords and bows (no sharp swords anywhere).

Might be just my personal experience though, maybe i only know peaceful people.

About the troops the EU demands and sends out, i strongly oppose it and i liked the SPD for actively opposing it (for example staying away from the invasion of iraq). Again, the people i know (which aren't many, admittedly), we all would be happier if German troops were just sent to support the population when invited by that country (for clearing old minefields, assisting the police, etc.) instead of going there to suppress it.

Well, every country has good and bad people, but with less than 30% of the population owning guns (less if you assume that most owners have more than one gun), i have trust in Germany. 30 guns per 100 people is still better than the 80 per 100 in the US.
bOOgyWC
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-08 09:07:28
July 08 2011 09:06 GMT
#6
hmm, at least i dont know ANYone who has got a weapon. (not counted: Airguns :D)
Except the very common "marksmen's festival"(deutsch: Schützenfest) which is held within small towns all over in germany regularly every few months.... which is just a reason to get drunk heavily ....at least this is how i see it (i dont participate in these gatherings).

Hmm, now that i think about it....a few years ago there was a farmer in my hometown who had secretly built an underground shooting range with very heavy guns (!!! really heavy shit ^^) under his field....but that was an exception...:D

I would claim, that in german _cities_ it is not common to own a gun....but maybe in small towns it is more common.
onlinerobbe
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany547 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-08 09:20:10
July 08 2011 09:13 GMT
#7
^yeah honestly who thinks about guns on Schützenfest D: it's just one of these many occasions to get drunk

1 in 3 is really surprising since I only know of 1 single person who once owned some guns
because he did shooting as a sport a few years back (From him I know that the storage of those weapons lie under strict regulations which go into a ridiculous amount of detail - but no one ever checks this...).
Everyone else would probably be like
"what guns? NO! why? for what?" I have to admit, I ask myself "for what?"
but to be honest I don't even want to discuss it, just hard to understand for me.

Some of these things you wrote were new, others were not, but I still didn't really think about
them in that way, so this was very interesting.

-
On July 08 2011 18:03 Morfildur wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Would be nice to see a statistics per state. While i have no doubt that especially bavaria and the high-population-density parts in the west have a tradition of owning firearms, i haven't found a single person here in the north near the danish border that owned a gun or knew someone owning a gun (except of course police officers).

Maybe it's because due to the history of the area we are more connected to the vikings with their swords and axes. Most people i know own show- or exposition-swords and bows (no sharp swords anywhere).

Might be just my personal experience though, maybe i only know peaceful people.

About the troops the EU demands and sends out, i strongly oppose it and i liked the SPD for actively opposing it (for example staying away from the invasion of iraq). Again, the people i know (which aren't many, admittedly), we all would be happier if German troops were just sent to support the population when invited by that country (for clearing old minefields, assisting the police, etc.) instead of going there to suppress it.

Well, every country has good and bad people, but with less than 30% of the population owning guns (less if you assume that most owners have more than one gun), i have trust in Germany. 30 guns per 100 people is still better than the 80 per 100 in the US.


hmm, maybe hamburg is just in the middle of that? Don't know anyone with guns, don't know anyone with swords and/or bows :D
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zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
July 08 2011 09:21 GMT
#8
Even after checking your source I`m still sceptical about the 25 million guns in civil Hands. Of all the people I know, my uncle is the only one with weapons in his private household. But he doesnt really count, cuz he is a hunter (gamekeeper) and therefore needs his rifle/pistol for work. Maybe they count all the sportsweapon as well. Anyways, I`m already waiting for the next edition of your Germany Blog.
keep it deep! @zulison
shell
Profile Joined October 2010
Portugal2722 Posts
July 08 2011 09:25 GMT
#9
Even tho i don't agree with EU weapons race i feel that the EU should free itselft from the USA and for that it needs to be self sufficient in weapons and don't forget the huge benefits to our technology and the end of USA military exports do EU.

We should remain a peacefull society and guns, especially heavy machine guns and shotguns should not be sold like that in any EU country.
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Cuddle
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1345 Posts
July 08 2011 09:32 GMT
#10
Always a delight to read!
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
July 08 2011 09:34 GMT
#11
Of the people I know two have guns (that I know of anyway), one of them hunts, the other one does sports shooting (no guns at home, all in the clubhouse).
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XiaN
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany162 Posts
July 08 2011 09:35 GMT
#12
On July 08 2011 18:21 zul wrote:
Even after checking your source I`m still sceptical about the 25 million guns in civil Hands. Of all the people I know, my uncle is the only one with weapons in his private household. But he doesnt really count, cuz he is a hunter (gamekeeper) and therefore needs his rifle/pistol for work. Maybe they count all the sportsweapon as well. Anyways, I`m already waiting for the next edition of your Germany Blog.


I'm kind of sceptical too. Zatic i really enjoyed all your other German blogs, but i think this one is pretty ... subjective

If you compare the US and Germany based on how arms are divided among the people i'd say that

In Germany

-> If a person owns guns, he owns a lot of them. E.G. only 1 out of 100 people has one, but has 20 of them
-> People who own guns are either sport shooters, hunters, crazy people who horde thousands of world war weapons in their basements or whatever extremists.

In the US

-> A lot of people own guns for personal safety, but only 1-2 weapons per household.
-> Nearly everyone owns a gun and its not limited to sports, collectors or crazy people

I'm pretty sure that the majority of the weapons in Germany are old ones from either the world wars I and II or the cold war.
< (。◕‿‿◕。) > | Former technical admin of ROOT-Gaming (root-gaming.com)
Morfildur
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany4849 Posts
July 08 2011 09:41 GMT
#13
On July 08 2011 18:21 zul wrote:
Even after checking your source I`m still sceptical about the 25 million guns in civil Hands. Of all the people I know, my uncle is the only one with weapons in his private household. But he doesnt really count, cuz he is a hunter (gamekeeper) and therefore needs his rifle/pistol for work. Maybe they count all the sportsweapon as well. Anyways, I`m already waiting for the next edition of your Germany Blog.


According to the source, all weapons are counted, including sports weapons. I'm also sceptical since the ratio of registered to unregistered seems to be quite excessive, but well, there are no statistics to support a lower number, so we have to go with what we have.

On July 08 2011 18:13 onlinerobbe wrote:
hmm, maybe hamburg is just in the middle of that? Don't know anyone with guns, don't know anyone with swords and/or bows :D


Well, it's mostly the more rural area north of Hamburg (i.e. Schleswig-Holstein). Cities are too modern for swords :p
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15017 Posts
July 08 2011 09:42 GMT
#14
Regarding the numbers: Civilian firearms means guns not in police or military use. Civilian owners are hunters, sports and recreational shooters and collectors. So yes zul, of course your uncle counts.
What I described in gun laws mostly applies to recreational shooting, although it is little different for hunters and collectors in what kind of guns they are allowed to own.

I have had difficulty finding English sources that give more detailed statistics. The thing is that guns are not centrally regsitered so reliable numbers are hard to come by anyway.

Some German sources I found for example estimate that half of all civilian guns are in fact owned illegally by now. I say by now because a good number of them have never been registered with the authorities (inherited guns for example) or have been made illegal by increasingly strict laws over the past years, but have not been turned in. And of course a significant number are simply illegally purchased and owned.

Regarding statistics by state, it is true that states with a long tradition of hunting and gun ownership like Bavaria account for a big part of the total guns. in Germany.

Since so many people seem to say "I have never met anyone that owns guns": Most gun owners are very reserved about the issue precisely because of how the general public things about it. So most will most likely just not talk about it. At least I have seen that several times.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Maxhster
Profile Joined March 2011
Fiji473 Posts
July 08 2011 09:48 GMT
#15
do you have any hard evidence to support your 1 in 3 thesis? i have lived my fair share of years in bavaria, Hamburg and Baden-Württemberg without encountering a single Person owning a private gun. Those 25 million numbers are estimates and nobody knows how many of those estimates got shipped to some poor african country or some other country that uses those killing machines.

I also believe that gun owners tend to collect them, so that 1 guy may have more like 5-10 guns while most of the population has none, they certainly arent as common in germany as they are for instance in the united states.

I also fail to see your point, do you want people in germany to approve of gun ownership? because historically, this will never happen for most of the population. And that is a good thing.
rawr
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15017 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-08 09:53:21
July 08 2011 09:50 GMT
#16
XiaN, I am very biased towards facts, yes. Note that I was talking about the number of guns, and the laws about gun licenses, not the number of license holders.

I am struggling to find good numbers here, but when the topic came up last time I believe it was something in the area of 4-5 million licenses issued. Certainly more than one in a hundred.

What I specifically want to get across though is the fact that it is certainly possible for the average German person to have their selection of assault rifles at home, which is what people have a hard time believing apparently.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
XiaN
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-08 10:07:53
July 08 2011 10:04 GMT
#17
XiaN, I am very biased towards facts, yes. Note that I was talking about the number of guns, and the laws about gun licenses, not the number of license holders.


Well played there

The only issue i have with your article is, that it implies that most of the people in Germany have personal weapons at home ( like in the US ) which is certainly incorrect.

Owned weapons in Germany are very grouped together around people who either have an interests in them ( sports, hunting ) or horde them other reasons ( WW stuff and so on ).

And as someone rightly stated the people who use them for sport or hunting have them at the club house and not at home.

( The following is total speculation )

If we go with the ~30 mio weapons estimate i personally think that ~20 mio are old weapons from the WorldWars or the Coldwar area and are only "used" by collectors or fanatics with the other 10 mio. new ones being used by sportsmen or hunters with most of them being stored on a club house.
< (。◕‿‿◕。) > | Former technical admin of ROOT-Gaming (root-gaming.com)
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15017 Posts
July 08 2011 10:05 GMT
#18
On July 08 2011 18:48 Maxhster wrote:
I also fail to see your point, do you want people in germany to approve of gun ownership?

I want to educate people here on TL about the reality in Germany. What conclusion you draw from this is completely up to you.

I don't see why you would think I am in favor of private gun ownership. If you compare to what I have written here to the arguments and numbers the gun lobby in Germany spread, you will find that they downplay these facts as much as possible. The gun lobby are the ones that want the general public to keep their believe in the supposedly strict gun laws and low number of guns in Germany, to avoid any further initiatives for stricter gun laws.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
yB.TeH
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Germany411 Posts
July 08 2011 10:25 GMT
#19
your post makes it sound like those weapons are used for safety issues when they are not.
you have to keep the firearm and its ammunition seperated in safes, which makes them useless to protect yourself.
the only people i know that have weapons are using them for hunting, sports or they are collectors.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-08 10:31:33
July 08 2011 10:29 GMT
#20
I dont get the point of this at all.
Wtf does gun ownership have to do with peace?

For example gun ownership is extremely widespread in Switzerland and Sweden. At the same time both countries havent gone to war for an extremely long time. They are as peaceful as it gets.

And why do you bring the gun ownership up anyway? Is it a problem that you can legally own guns in Germany in your opinion? Or are you positive about it, pointing out that we are not as restricted in our liberties as some people seem to think? In the sense that you can go and own a gun as a law-abiding citizen. Although you are not allowed to use them for home defense or carry them in public anyway, so thats kinda pointless.

I didnt get the EU bit either. The EU forces members to participate in wars now or what?
This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides.

Every single EU member would have to agree to military action under that clause. Which will basically never happen.
There is a reason the US supported the extension of EU, which is making it ineffective to act as a cohesive power block.


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