Germany (VI): Gun ownership - Page 4

On July 10 2011 10:58 sick_transit wrote:
Interesting post--I learned something.

1. Speaking as an American who is a supporter of a strong Europe and a strong US-EU relationship, Europe really needs to arm itself. Defense of borders and projection of force beyond borders are basic state functions.

2. I laughed at the non-US poster stating that nearly everyone in the US has a gun. I don't know the statistics off-hand but it's nowhere near everyone. More interesting is the political power of gun ownership in the US and the constitutional and normative protection it enjoys. The National Rifle Association is one of the three most powerful political organizations we have (the others being AARP and AIPAC).

On July 08 2011 17:37 zatic wrote:


In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into

On July 31 2011 16:48 crate wrote:
I'm seem to recall seeing zatic post these numbers in a topic some time ago and the same type of comments regarding the "1 gun for every 3 people" phrase popping up.

I don't personally see that as misleading. It's saying there is about 1 civilian-owned gun for every 3 people in Germany, and it makes no claims at all about how those guns are distributed. I don't see a way to convey that information in a more-neutral tone that isn't being redundant. I mean, in the very next sentence zatic quite clearly says that it's not one third of civilians who own guns (~4 million owners). You need more words than that to make it clear he's just presenting the facts in a way that keeps the number of guns related to the number of people?

On July 31 2011 08:20 SilentchiLL wrote:



This is pretty misleading and although t might sound weird, I have to admit that I'm kinda dissappointed in you for writing it that way.
It should be obvious, that people who have a gun often have more than one, but by writing it that way it really sounds like a third of the german population has guns at home.
I know that you probably didn't mean it that way zatic, and that it's not your fault that people don't think it through, but making a little subclause, which regards that topic, wouldn't have been much work, but it would've cleared that up.

On August 01 2011 09:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
haha wow it's hilarious watching the germans get riled out and denying/questioning the valicity of these stats/zatic's motive behind posting, because that is exactly the attitude zatic is describing. even funnier because there are sources posted and the statistics aren't even weird..

On August 01 2011 10:08 Malinor wrote:


This just makes my head spin. If you feel something is wrong or not described the right way, you can point it out. Of course germans are pointing it out, who else would? I have already given my thoughts on page2, so no need to repeat that here in-depth. but just to sum it up again:
The blog is called peace and pacifism, goes straight into gun laws (I still don't see the obvious connection here) and then proceeds with the quote that germany is armed to his teeth. As a german, who has never had a gun, never saw a gun besides in a store or on a policeman, never talked about gun-ownership with anyone and has never overheard a conversation about guns, it must be allowed to point that out. As others have said, the sheer number of 25million guns tells you next to nothing besides that there are lots of weapons in this country, which is what I learned through this blog. But still, there are nearly no homocides involving guns, there are nearly no shootings you ever hear of nor do you ever hear of burglars who were shot or shot someone. The exposure to guns is simply not there and it seems they are simply used for sports or hunting in nearly all cases.

On November 09 2011 22:07 zatic wrote:
I know I am late to this but I edited the blog so that it clearly says it's about gun ownership, and removed the parts about pacifism generally that I feel are connected to the topic.

On July 15 2012 05:22 Lorizean wrote:
Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts

My whole family (grandfather, father, uncle, brother, sister, me) are hunters and we all own at least one hunting rifle, so I got a bit of knowledge in this area.
There are some differences between sport marksmen and hunters, so most of this will be form the point of a hunting license owner.

First I want to emphasize that fully automatic guns are not allowed to be owned by average people. A hunting or sport shooting license will "only" allow you to get anything up to semi automatic (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/waffg_2002/anlage_2_82.html). Silencers, night vision scopes and laser pointers are also not allowed.

In case of a hunting license it has to be renewed regularly (every 3 years, which costs 180 EUR) and if you do not have a currently valid license, you are only allowed to own the gun but not to use it (i.e. it has to remain in your safe).

Speaking about safes, there are strict laws in place. Safes are classified in several grades and depending on the grade you are allowed to store different stuff in them. Generally they have to be fixed to the ground/wall or very heavy. We personally own a safe that has been fixed to the ground. Weapons and ammunition have to be stored separately from each other. They recently started unannounced checks, where people come to your house and see if you properly store your weapons.
Only you and people who own a gun license themselves are allowed to have access to your safe. There has been a case where a hunter lost his license because his wife knew the combination to his safe.

When transporting weapons they can not be "available within a few moments", meaning they have to be either disassembled or in a case. Obviously it cannot be loaded and the ammunition has to be stored separately as well. I think there is a difference in gun law here between sport and hunting, as I as a hunter am allowed to drive/walk through my hunting area with my weapon ready (although you are not allowed to shoot from inside the car), whereas sport marksmen can only use their weapons on designated shooting stands.

You are not allowed to just go into the woods and shoot your weapon. Even when I go to my hunting area, I am only allowed to do 1 test-shot to see if the weapon still shoots correctly, all other shots have to be purposeful (aimed at game).

About self defense:
First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc.
There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to.
Keep in mind that you are not allowed to keep your guns under your pillow or something. Even if somebody broke into my house, I would have to sneak past him to the place where I keep the key, then to the basement to the safe, then I would have to get out the gun and load it....

Hunting itself is more heavily regulated in Germany than in the US. The next few paragraphs are more about hunting than gun ownership, so you might wanna skip the read

If you want to hunt, you have two options: Either have your own hunt or you are invited to somebody else's. You cannot go anywhere you want and start hunting.
If you want your own hunt, you either have to own more than 75 hectares (185 acres) of land yourself or you "rent" the right to hunt in a specific area. Most hunters I know (including my family) rent the hunting right (mostly because we don't own that much land). You then have the right but also the responsibility to hunt in that area. For example, you are responsible for any damage done by game to crops, meaning you either actively prevent it (the preferred option...) by putting up fences and shooting enough animals or you have to pay the farmer for his losses. You get restrictions about the number of animals you have to shoot for the more important types of game (roe and red deer for me) - you are not allowed to be significantly under or over that number. There are also restrictions about what you are allowed to shoot when and there can be heavy fines if you mess up - a hunter in a neighboring hunt recently had to pay ~1000 EUR for shooting a stag that was too young for example.
If you own less than 75 hectares of land or if you don't want to hunt on your own land (if you don't have a hunting license for example), your land is automatically given up for "hunting rent". Usually, your land and that of others gets put together to larger lots of 200+ hectares and then somebody can rent the hunting rights there. Keep in mind that this is all they get - you can obviously still do whatever you want with your land. Some people that oppose hunting for religious or ethical reasons have tried to get their land excluded from this, but so far they never won a case in court (in fact I think the European Court of Justice has recently denied one such request).
If you do not want / cannot get a rent for a hunt (you need to have a hunting license for 5 years to apply for one; also, it is a 9 to 12 years contract), you either need to have friends that invite you over or you can pay to go to hunts in certain areas (there are some state owned forests that regularly organize large hunts for example).

Maybe that cleared up some questions. Most people in Germany don't know about the hunting system for example, so I hope this was interesting to some.