EPTGermany (VI): Gun ownership - Page 3
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32083 Posts
On July 08 2011 20:18 zatic wrote: Certainly correct. I have made no claims otherwise. You can officially apply for a gun license on the grounds of self defense in Germany too, but your chances to get the license granted are much lower, and you need very good reason. So I suppose people interested in that usually just join a shooting club and apply for the sports license. You guys seem to think I have a certain intention with regard to gun politics with this thread. I don't, I just like to present some facts most people are oblivious about. if you apply for sport or rec use, are you not permitted to have at home or something?? What if you have it at home and shoot someone trying to break in or something? Different ballgame than if you did it after declaring that you wanted it for self defense?? | ||
zatic
Zurich15355 Posts
On July 08 2011 21:55 Hawk wrote: if you apply for sport or rec use, are you not permitted to have at home or something?? What if you have it at home and shoot someone trying to break in or something? Different ballgame than if you did it after declaring that you wanted it for self defense?? You are alllowed to keep them at home, but unloaded and in a gun safe. So, yes, this is pretty much the difference, if you shoot someone with a gun issued for recreational use it would probably result in different court rulings than with a gun issued for self defense. Although I am no expert on the actual laws on self defense in that case. | ||
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Maxhster
Fiji473 Posts
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make. The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts. where are the hard facts he cites? i only see estimates and guesses which leads to foreign ppl like you to believe that what he writes is the truth, but i dont see any Evidence or reliable source in there. btw, a psychological evaluation and a 2 year membership in a "schützenverein" is necessary to get the große Waffenschein. And that only allows you to use that gun in said environment, getting a gun home is a whole other deal. Compairing getting a drivers licence (which costs close to 2000€ in germany) and getting a Waffenschein is really off. Leading foreigner like the swede above to believe germans are a weapon loving gun packed country is just plain wrong. | ||
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ROiDster
Germany33 Posts
I don't see how weapons, in the hands of a hunter or a sport shooter (?), if used without any criminal intent, interfere with any concept of peace or pacifism I know of. | ||
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XiaN
Germany162 Posts
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make. The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts. No one is arguing his facts, since he has very valid and legit sources, but the point he tries to transfer in the OP is simply wrong. Plain and simply wrong  Why? Read the thread ... nearly everyone who commented on the thread said the same why :o | ||
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zatic
Zurich15355 Posts
On July 08 2011 22:52 Maxhster wrote: where are the hard facts he cites? i only see estimates and guesses which leads to foreign ppl like you to believe that what he writes is the truth, but i dont see any Evidence or reliable source in there. btw, a psychological evaluation and a 2 year membership in a "schützenverein" is necessary to get the große Waffenschein. And that only allows you to use that gun in said environment, getting a gun home is a whole other deal. Compairing getting a drivers licence (which costs close to 2000€ in germany) and getting a Waffenschein is really off. Leading foreigner like the swede above to believe germans are a weapon loving gun packed country is just plain wrong. Guns are not centrally registered, so estimates are the only facts you can get. You can always show me estimates that say something different. I don't know where you get this information from. There is no "grosser Waffenschein". There is the Waffenschein, which is a concealed carry license, and which is not issued to anyone without a need - like professional body guards and other security personnel. This is not at all what I am talking about. I don't know what you mean by "getting a gun home" being a whole other deal. Having a gun at home is exactly what a ownership license allows you to. Regarding the comparison, the cost of shooting club membership is less than for driving lessons. You will need more lessons for the gun proficiency. I said it's harder to get your gun ownership, but not by a lot. I stand by that. XiaN, I have not said anything that is plain wrong (well, to my knowledge). Please show me where. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15355 Posts
On July 08 2011 22:52 Maxhster wrote: Leading foreigner like the swede above to believe germans are a weapon loving gun packed country is just plain wrong. I don't say that. I say the opposite. Germans are such a peace loving folk they will simply ignore or even deny that it is perfectly possible to own all kinds of guns for the average guy, and that there are lots (meaning about 4 million) average guys who do that. As others have pointed out this thread is a good example of that oddity. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
It's 4 million licensed gun owners in a country of a bit more than 80 million, no? That's 5%...I don't see how that's a significant number. | ||
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XiaN
Germany162 Posts
XiaN, I have not said anything that is plain wrong (well, to my knowledge). Please show me where. Like i said one post above, the facts you quoted are correct, but the message you want to transport with the OP is wrong. I just double checked and all of the responses are pointing out the same error in your OP. You imply that most of the personal german households ( or at least every 1:3 ) has a gun at home and all the responses pointed out that this is not the case. Everyone said that the weapons in Germany are highly centered around people who use them for Sports, Hunting or Collecting. Its noway common in Germany to have a gun ... especially not at home. Like i said before, i enjoyed all your previous posts about german facts and all of them where correct, but here you are wrong ... and most of the comments stating that out. Its now up to you to either accept your fault or try to defend it. Its your blog, so its up to you PS: I find it pretty interesting that there are 0 comments covering/backing up your point on the OP. Even on the dumbest topic on SC2 strat or SC2 general there is at least one pep on the first three pages who agrees with the OP. Here its none. Would make me think, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | ||
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Armathai
1023 Posts
Anyway, after reading the OP, and the responses, and then reading the OP again, I noticed how barely anyone touched the latter half of the blog relating to the lisbon treaty/EU and everyone got stuck on the gun ownership issue. While I can join the list of people saying they don't own a gun and only know one acquaintance that does, I think the two relevant parts of the OP that have caused so much discussion are; Germans are incredibly proud of their strict gun laws, and the supposedly low number of guns that exist in Germany. Have a look at any topic where guns are discussed on TL, and you will find a German pacifist voicing disbelief how a US forum poster can have an assault rifle at home. and In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households. As this blog was aimed at the fellow Germans here on TL, I think it is relevant to discuss both the source Zatic posted as well as relevant legislation here in Germany. Firstly, I'd like to point to two bits of information from the Small Arms Survey, where the section you want to be checking starts on page 51 of the pdf. Germany illustrates typical problems of estimation. The country has a long history of civilian gun ownership, encouraged by militia-based armies in the 19th century, the side effects of two world wars, and interest in hunting and sport shooting. Although gun ownership is widespread, Germany has relatively little gun crime. Firearm murders amount to 150–300 annually and suicides total some 900 per year (Cukier and Sidel, 2005, p. 35). Gun ownership usually receives little attention, except in the wake of mass shootings. The most serious recent incident occurred in Erfurt in 2003. A similar, but much less deadly, incident occurred on 21 November 2006, when a high school student in Emsdetten, near Münster, shot and wounded five people before killing himself (Jüttner, 2006). Such incidents are instrumental in shaping German public attitudes toward gun ownership. German gun laws are permissive. Current members of shooting and hunting clubs, the country’s most visible, but a minority of all, owners number 1.6 million and 340,000, respectively (Graff, 2002). Sport shooters are allowed to own up to four handguns, three semi-automatic rifles or shotguns, and ‘any reasonable number’ of single-shot firearms. Hunters are limited to ‘two handguns for final shots of wounded animals’, but ‘any reasonable number’ of rifles and shotguns (IMC, 2006, p. 2). In practice, this allows the accumulation of large collections, illustrated in 2005 by the revelation of 120 unregistered fire-arms belonging to a collector in the Black Forest. He was prosecuted, but only for insecure storage (Der Enztäler, 2005, p. 6). I'm not sure where Zatic got the 4million gun owners from, as its unrelated to this source, however this neatly ties into the problem that gun ownership and gun usage are separate licenses. There is a big difference between a Waffenbesitzkarte (ownership card) and a Waffenschein(Weapon Usage License), not to mention with legislation introduced in 2002 of the new kleiner Waffenschein (there is no Großer Waffenschein). As stated by various others, Zatic drew a correct statistic by saying 1:3 have guns, but if you draw the correct conclusion and see that (according to the survey about 2million in clubs) 4million people out of a population of 82million possibly OWN(not usage license) guns, then the numbers seem much less dramatic. Zatic also mentioned before that the underlying criticism Germans might show towards Gun Ownership in the US isn't so much the issue that Americans can own those guns, but rather they'd have the legitimate right to use them. If you opened up on a burglar with an m16 in Germany you'd probably end up in prison longer than the burglar would. To top all this off is the fact that gun laws are state and region specific. Lastly I want to draw everyone away from the Gun ownership issue and point out that elaborating on the Lisbon treaty and Germany's general attitude towards the EU is a much more interesting subject and hopefully Zatic will take the time to elaborate on it in a separate blog not overshadowed by Guns. Also, I thought this would lighten the mood a little  | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On July 08 2011 17:37 zatic wrote: German misconceptions about peace and pacifism Another in my opinion misconceived notion is that of the peaceful European Union. The EU is so closely connected to peace in the German mind that arguing against that notion will make people here seriously doubt your sanity. It is undenieable that one goal of the EU was a peaceful Europe. What brought us peace however is the European integration, not the institution of the EU. Yes, it certainly helped on the process. However a popular claim I keep hearing is that were the EU to fail or to be abolish, we would return to our pre war habit of invading each other every few years. What a ridiculous idea. Looking at the EU as it is today, I don't see its peacful nature anyway. The Lisbon treaty specificially demands each signing member to progressivily enhance their military capabilities. How peaceful is an institution that requires armament and military spending? In addition to that it contains a mutual military assistance clause and asks member states to supply military forces to a European command. It also allows European troops to be deployed under that command in 3rd party countries within the war agianst Terror. These deployments are not to be sanctioned by parliament and their rightfulness not to be checked by the European high court. This is so ridiculously against our very constitution that I really can't understand how Germany did sign this treaty in good faith. From another perspective, if you look at the provisions and requirements for military action of German forces according to the Lisbon treaty, German rulers have had a harder time using military force during the 2nd German Reich and the Weimar Republic. Even the Kaiser had to ask parliament for a declaration of war and an approval of military spending. These are the two very common misconceptions about peace I encounter when talking with fellow Germans regularly. I am happy to expand on the topics in the comments as I didn't have the time to flesh out this article as much as I wanted to. Sources Gun ownership survey http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/full/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-EN.pdf Relevant section of the Lisbon treaty http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Consolidated_version_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union/Title_V:_General_Provisions_on_the_Union's_External_Action_Service_and_Specific_Provisions_on_the_Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy#Article_42 Random bits of knowledge about Germany Ep5: Lines Ep4: Bild and Fear Ep3: Stereotypes Ep2: Sauna Ep1: Small Talk As I feel the rest of your post was addressed by other posters I just wanted comment on this. I really do believe that the EU is the main reason why we haven't had a war between the major european powers for more than 70 years now. The union has intertwined the ecconomies of the european nations to the point where a war is essentially unthinkable and for all its bureaucracy and lack of transparancy that one thing justifies the union a dozen times over in my mind. | ||
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Madoga
Netherlands471 Posts
Bunch or warmongers! You can find statistics for each country here. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On July 10 2011 03:05 Madoga wrote: Germany has nearly 10 times more civilian guns per person than the Netherlands. Bunch or warmongers! You can find statistics for each country here. Well, the Netherlands have not even a fifth of germanys population... | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On July 08 2011 18:35 XiaN wrote: In the US -> A lot of people own guns for personal safety, but only 1-2 weapons per household. -> Nearly everyone owns a gun and its not limited to sports, collectors or crazy people I'm pretty sure that the majority of the weapons in Germany are old ones from either the world wars I and II or the cold war. This is not true. While there are people who enjoying shooting, people who think guns are important for self defense, and some people who just really like guns for the sake of having guns, I doubt 1/3 of households in suburbs have a gun. You might remember in 2004 when Kerry had some photos taken of him hunting and carrying a gun for his campaign, and most of the population didn't believe he was really a gun owner. Unlikely reaction if nearly everyone owned a gun. Most college campuses don't allow weapons either. The people who want to own guns usually have quite a few. It would be like averaging the number of cigarettes in the country, and assuming most people buy hundreds or thousands of cartons a year, only more extreme. | ||
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Madoga
Netherlands471 Posts
On July 10 2011 03:08 Morfildur wrote: Well, the Netherlands have not even a fifth of germanys population... Per 100 people, so it doesn't matter how big the population is. | ||
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XiaN
Germany162 Posts
On July 10 2011 04:30 igotmyown wrote: This is not true. While there are people who enjoying shooting, people who think guns are important for self defense, and some people who just really like guns for the sake of having guns, I doubt 1/3 of households in suburbs have a gun. You might remember in 2004 when Kerry had some photos taken of him hunting and carrying a gun for his campaign, and most of the population didn't believe he was really a gun owner. Unlikely reaction if nearly everyone owned a gun. Most college campuses don't allow weapons either. The people who want to own guns usually have quite a few. It would be like averaging the number of cigarettes in the country, and assuming most people buy hundreds or thousands of cartons a year, only more extreme. Nah i'm not trying to say that every 3rd household on the US is a crazy gunhorder and has a lot of weapons at home, but compared to Germany its just more common on the US to have a SINGLE gun at home. At least every 2rd household on your street has a gun at home for the purpose of self-defense. The point was that in Germany only a very few people own a lot of guns, while most of the population ( e.g. the dudes in your street ) own none. | ||
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Shockk
Germany2269 Posts
The part about the EU is a bit off in my opinion. Sure, it was founded with the concept of financial bonding eliminating inner-european warfare, but why shouldn't the EU coordinate its' members militaries? Since it's basically a quasi-continental govermental body, defense is an important topic as well. We've seen in the past what happened when outside bodies, usually the US, called for military support for more or less justified reasons and the EU was subsequently divided into blocks with a variety of opinions. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
The part about the EU is a bit off in my opinion. Sure, it was founded with the concept of financial bonding eliminating inner-european warfare, but why shouldn't the EU coordinate its' members militaries? Since it's basically a quasi-continental govermental body, defense is an important topic as well. We've seen in the past what happened when outside bodies, usually the US, called for military support for more or less justified reasons and the EU was subsequently divided into blocks with a variety of opinions. Why should the EU not supercede the German constitution in military deployments? For one matter, it will inevitably conflict with Germany's status as a sovereign state capable of conducting her own military and foreign policy. The ultimate implication would be the overruling of the auswärtiges Amt by the foreign policy chiefs of the European Council (read: Ms. Ashton; a consideration grotesque enough to merit a complete dismissal of the matter.) The option of leaving a sovereign veto defeats the purpose of military unity in the first place. It's the Montequieuian principle of military command concentrated in the hands of a capable executive. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
1. Speaking as an American who is a supporter of a strong Europe and a strong US-EU relationship, Europe really needs to arm itself. Defense of borders and projection of force beyond borders are basic state functions. 2. I laughed at the non-US poster stating that nearly everyone in the US has a gun. I don't know the statistics off-hand but it's nowhere near everyone. More interesting is the political power of gun ownership in the US and the constitutional and normative protection it enjoys. The National Rifle Association is one of the three most powerful political organizations we have (the others being AARP and AIPAC). | ||
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