This edition of random facts of knowledge about Germany will hopefully clear up some I would argue myths about gun ownership that are very popular in Germany. This article maybe more educational to my fellow Germans than foreign readers. Well, at least I hope so.
I have had a draft of this article sitting around for awhile now, but recent events forced my to kind of rush it now. Apologies that this piece lacks an overarching story and a conclusion.
Myths about gun ownership. Considering Germanys history, it is not hard to understand, that the Germans might have some rather unusual views on war, peace, and relating to that, gun policy. This is fine of course, but unfortunately a lot of common misconceptions go along with these views.
Germans are incredibly proud of their strict gun laws, and the supposedly low number of guns that exist in Germany. Have a look at any topic where guns are discussed on TL, and you will find a German pacifist voicing disbelief how a US forum poster can have an assault rifle at home. How can something like this ever be made legal? An impossible thought, for most Germans.
In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households. Of course, that is only the raw numbers, although it is quite impressive on their own. Lets look at the supposedly strict gun ownership laws.
It is true that it is not easy to obtain a gun ownership license in Germany. But "not easy" is very relative. It's not easy to get a driver's license in Germany, either. In fact, getting your driver's license is about as hard as getting your gun ownership license. You have to pass a test on gun safety and proficiency, which takes more time and about as many lessons than getting your driver's license, but not by a lot. If the authorities have doubts that your are fit to own guns, they can ask for a psychological evaluation before you get your license. Applicants 25 years or younger always need to pass this evaluation. If you have a criminal record the authorities might deny you the application anyways.
That's basically it. Once you are there, you are free to buy as much steel as you want. With some restrictions (This is concerning competition shooters, which account for the vast majority of gun owners): You are allowed a new purchase every 6 months, and it must be of a different caliber than your existing. Also you will have to argue necessity for owning a gun. For a recreational shooter that means regular practice, which might get difficult the more guns you own. Apart from that however, there is no reason why you couldn't get that semi automatic assault rifle. Or more than one. I myself went shooting with a range of guns including M-16, HK41, Desert Eagle .50AE, SG551, all kinds of semi automatic pistols and revolvers in good old Germany, yet for some reason people here have a hard time believing that.
There are additional safety requirements that gun holders must meet. Guns have to be stored in gun safes, and may only be transported in a case. Under pressure from a recent school shooting, a law has been passed that permits authorities to verify if gun owners satisfy the safety requirements, however that law is still being contested in several court cases.
There are certain bans on specific guns, which have been made for political reasons. For example even though converted semi-auto assault rifles are not generally disallowed, the AK47 and its variants have been banned due to their perceived connection to terrorism. Similarly shotguns with pistol grip (but not shot guns in general) have been banned because of a notorious school shooting in 2002, where the shooter was carrying one, even though he didn't use it (the actual shooting was all done with a regular Glock 17 pistol).
The public outrage that regularly occurs over events like school shootings shows the disconnect from what the general public believes to what the law actually says. And to the reality in Germany for that matter. This is where I like to come back to the opening of this blog. This article is not meant to say that Germans are a violent people, or that gun violence is a problem in Germany. In fact what I want to do is argue the opposite: Germans are so embraced in pacifist ideals that the very notion that their country hosts millions of guns and gun owners is offensive to the point that it will often be not believed or flat out denied.
On July 08 2011 17:37 zatic wrote: German misconceptions about peace and pacifism
This edition of random facts of knowledge about Germany will hopefully clear up some I would argue myths about pacifism that are very popular in Germany. This article maybe more educational to my fellow Germans than foreign readers. Well, at least I hope so.
I have had a draft of this article sitting around for awhile now, but recent events forced my to kind of rush it now. Apologies that this piece lacks an overarching story and a conclusion.
Myths about peace and pacifism. Considering Germanys history, it is not hard to understand, that the Germans might have some rather unusual views on war, peace, and pacifism. This is fine of course, but unfortunately a lot of common misconceptions go along with these views.
The first topic will be about German gun laws and gun ownership.
Germans are incredibly proud of their strict gun laws, and the supposedly low number of guns that exist in Germany. Have a look at any topic where guns are discussed on TL, and you will find a German pacifist voicing disbelief how a US forum poster can have an assault rifle at home. How can something like this ever be made legal? An impossible thought, for most Germans.
In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households. Of course, that is only the raw numbers, although it is quite impressive on their own. Lets look at the supposedly strict gun ownership laws.
It is true that it is not easy to obtain a gun license in Germany. But "not easy" is very relative. It's not easy to get a driver's license in Germany, either. In fact, getting your driver's license is just little easier than getting your gun ownership. You have to pass a test on gun safety and proficiency, which takes more time and lessons than getting your driver's license, but not by a lot. If the authorities have doubts that your are fit to own guns, they can ask for a psychological evaluation before you get your license. Applicants 25 years or younger always need to pass this evaluation. If you have a criminal record the authorities might deny you the application anyways.
That's basically it. Once you are there, you are free to buy as much steel as you want. With some restrictions (This is concerning recreational shooters): You are allowed a new purchase every 6 months, and it must be of a different caliber than your existing. Apart from that however, there is no reason why you couldn't get that semi automatic assault rifle. Or more than one. I myself went shooting with a range of guns inclluding M-16, HK41, Desert Eagle .50AE, SG551, all kinds of semi automatic pistols and revolvers in good old Germany, yet for some reason people here have a hard time believing that.
There are certain bans on specific guns, which have been made for political reasons. For example even though assault rifles are generally allowed, the AK47 and it's variants have been banned due to their perceived connection to terrorism. Similarly shotguns with pistol grip (but not shot guns in general) have been banned because of a notorious school shooting in 2002, where the shooter was carrying one, even though he didn't use it. The public outrage over that he was able to own such a gun shows you the disconnect from what the general public believes to what the law actually says.
Another in my opinion misconceived notion is that of the peaceful European Union. The EU is so closely connected to peace in the German mind that arguing against that notion will make people here seriously doubt your sanity. It is undenieable that one goal of the EU was a peaceful Europe. What brought us peace however is the European integration, not the institution of the EU. Yes, it certainly helped on the process. However a popular claim I keep hearing is that were the EU to fail or to be abolish, we would return to our pre war habit of invading each other every few years. What a ridiculous idea.
Looking at the EU as it is today, I don't see its peacful nature anyway. The Lisbon treaty specificially demands each signing member to progressivily enhance their military capabilities. How peaceful is an institution that requires armament and military spending? In addition to that it contains a mutual military assistance clause and asks member states to supply military forces to a European command. It also allows European troops to be deployed under that command in 3rd party countries within the war agianst Terror. These deployments are not to be sanctioned by parliament and their rightfulness not to be checked by the European high court. This is so ridiculously against our very constitution that I really can't understand how Germany did sign this treaty in good faith.
From another perspective, if you look at the provisions and requirements for military action of German forces according to the Lisbon treaty, German rulers have had a harder time using military force during the 2nd German Reich and the Weimar Republic. Even the Kaiser had to ask parliament for a declaration of war and an approval of military spending.
These are the two very common misconceptions about peace I encounter when talking with fellow Germans regularly. I am happy to expand on the topics in the comments as I didn't have the time to flesh out this article as much as I wanted to.
Would be nice to see a statistics per state. While i have no doubt that especially bavaria and the high-population-density parts in the west have a tradition of owning firearms, i haven't found a single person here in the north near the danish border that owned a gun or knew someone owning a gun (except of course police officers).
Maybe it's because due to the history of the area we are more connected to the vikings with their swords and axes. Most people i know own show- or exposition-swords and bows (no sharp swords anywhere).
Might be just my personal experience though, maybe i only know peaceful people.
About the troops the EU demands and sends out, i strongly oppose it and i liked the SPD for actively opposing it (for example staying away from the invasion of iraq). Again, the people i know (which aren't many, admittedly), we all would be happier if German troops were just sent to support the population when invited by that country (for clearing old minefields, assisting the police, etc.) instead of going there to suppress it.
Well, every country has good and bad people, but with less than 30% of the population owning guns (less if you assume that most owners have more than one gun), i have trust in Germany. 30 guns per 100 people is still better than the 80 per 100 in the US.
hmm, at least i dont know ANYone who has got a weapon. (not counted: Airguns :D) Except the very common "marksmen's festival"(deutsch: Schützenfest) which is held within small towns all over in germany regularly every few months.... which is just a reason to get drunk heavily ....at least this is how i see it (i dont participate in these gatherings).
Hmm, now that i think about it....a few years ago there was a farmer in my hometown who had secretly built an underground shooting range with very heavy guns (!!! really heavy shit ^^) under his field....but that was an exception...:D
I would claim, that in german _cities_ it is not common to own a gun....but maybe in small towns it is more common.
^yeah honestly who thinks about guns on Schützenfest D: it's just one of these many occasions to get drunk
1 in 3 is really surprising since I only know of 1 single person who once owned some guns because he did shooting as a sport a few years back (From him I know that the storage of those weapons lie under strict regulations which go into a ridiculous amount of detail - but no one ever checks this...). Everyone else would probably be like "what guns? NO! why? for what?" I have to admit, I ask myself "for what?" but to be honest I don't even want to discuss it, just hard to understand for me.
Some of these things you wrote were new, others were not, but I still didn't really think about them in that way, so this was very interesting.
Would be nice to see a statistics per state. While i have no doubt that especially bavaria and the high-population-density parts in the west have a tradition of owning firearms, i haven't found a single person here in the north near the danish border that owned a gun or knew someone owning a gun (except of course police officers).
Maybe it's because due to the history of the area we are more connected to the vikings with their swords and axes. Most people i know own show- or exposition-swords and bows (no sharp swords anywhere).
Might be just my personal experience though, maybe i only know peaceful people.
About the troops the EU demands and sends out, i strongly oppose it and i liked the SPD for actively opposing it (for example staying away from the invasion of iraq). Again, the people i know (which aren't many, admittedly), we all would be happier if German troops were just sent to support the population when invited by that country (for clearing old minefields, assisting the police, etc.) instead of going there to suppress it.
Well, every country has good and bad people, but with less than 30% of the population owning guns (less if you assume that most owners have more than one gun), i have trust in Germany. 30 guns per 100 people is still better than the 80 per 100 in the US.
hmm, maybe hamburg is just in the middle of that? Don't know anyone with guns, don't know anyone with swords and/or bows :D
Even after checking your source I`m still sceptical about the 25 million guns in civil Hands. Of all the people I know, my uncle is the only one with weapons in his private household. But he doesnt really count, cuz he is a hunter (gamekeeper) and therefore needs his rifle/pistol for work. Maybe they count all the sportsweapon as well. Anyways, I`m already waiting for the next edition of your Germany Blog.
Even tho i don't agree with EU weapons race i feel that the EU should free itselft from the USA and for that it needs to be self sufficient in weapons and don't forget the huge benefits to our technology and the end of USA military exports do EU.
We should remain a peacefull society and guns, especially heavy machine guns and shotguns should not be sold like that in any EU country.
Of the people I know two have guns (that I know of anyway), one of them hunts, the other one does sports shooting (no guns at home, all in the clubhouse).
On July 08 2011 18:21 zul wrote: Even after checking your source I`m still sceptical about the 25 million guns in civil Hands. Of all the people I know, my uncle is the only one with weapons in his private household. But he doesnt really count, cuz he is a hunter (gamekeeper) and therefore needs his rifle/pistol for work. Maybe they count all the sportsweapon as well. Anyways, I`m already waiting for the next edition of your Germany Blog.
I'm kind of sceptical too. Zatic i really enjoyed all your other German blogs, but i think this one is pretty ... subjective
If you compare the US and Germany based on how arms are divided among the people i'd say that
In Germany
-> If a person owns guns, he owns a lot of them. E.G. only 1 out of 100 people has one, but has 20 of them -> People who own guns are either sport shooters, hunters, crazy people who horde thousands of world war weapons in their basements or whatever extremists.
In the US
-> A lot of people own guns for personal safety, but only 1-2 weapons per household. -> Nearly everyone owns a gun and its not limited to sports, collectors or crazy people
I'm pretty sure that the majority of the weapons in Germany are old ones from either the world wars I and II or the cold war.
On July 08 2011 18:21 zul wrote: Even after checking your source I`m still sceptical about the 25 million guns in civil Hands. Of all the people I know, my uncle is the only one with weapons in his private household. But he doesnt really count, cuz he is a hunter (gamekeeper) and therefore needs his rifle/pistol for work. Maybe they count all the sportsweapon as well. Anyways, I`m already waiting for the next edition of your Germany Blog.
According to the source, all weapons are counted, including sports weapons. I'm also sceptical since the ratio of registered to unregistered seems to be quite excessive, but well, there are no statistics to support a lower number, so we have to go with what we have.
On July 08 2011 18:13 onlinerobbe wrote: hmm, maybe hamburg is just in the middle of that? Don't know anyone with guns, don't know anyone with swords and/or bows :D
Well, it's mostly the more rural area north of Hamburg (i.e. Schleswig-Holstein). Cities are too modern for swords :p
Regarding the numbers: Civilian firearms means guns not in police or military use. Civilian owners are hunters, sports and recreational shooters and collectors. So yes zul, of course your uncle counts. What I described in gun laws mostly applies to recreational shooting, although it is little different for hunters and collectors in what kind of guns they are allowed to own.
I have had difficulty finding English sources that give more detailed statistics. The thing is that guns are not centrally regsitered so reliable numbers are hard to come by anyway.
Some German sources I found for example estimate that half of all civilian guns are in fact owned illegally by now. I say by now because a good number of them have never been registered with the authorities (inherited guns for example) or have been made illegal by increasingly strict laws over the past years, but have not been turned in. And of course a significant number are simply illegally purchased and owned.
Regarding statistics by state, it is true that states with a long tradition of hunting and gun ownership like Bavaria account for a big part of the total guns. in Germany.
Since so many people seem to say "I have never met anyone that owns guns": Most gun owners are very reserved about the issue precisely because of how the general public things about it. So most will most likely just not talk about it. At least I have seen that several times.
do you have any hard evidence to support your 1 in 3 thesis? i have lived my fair share of years in bavaria, Hamburg and Baden-Württemberg without encountering a single Person owning a private gun. Those 25 million numbers are estimates and nobody knows how many of those estimates got shipped to some poor african country or some other country that uses those killing machines.
I also believe that gun owners tend to collect them, so that 1 guy may have more like 5-10 guns while most of the population has none, they certainly arent as common in germany as they are for instance in the united states.
I also fail to see your point, do you want people in germany to approve of gun ownership? because historically, this will never happen for most of the population. And that is a good thing.
XiaN, I am very biased towards facts, yes. Note that I was talking about the number of guns, and the laws about gun licenses, not the number of license holders.
I am struggling to find good numbers here, but when the topic came up last time I believe it was something in the area of 4-5 million licenses issued. Certainly more than one in a hundred.
What I specifically want to get across though is the fact that it is certainly possible for the average German person to have their selection of assault rifles at home, which is what people have a hard time believing apparently.
XiaN, I am very biased towards facts, yes. Note that I was talking about the number of guns, and the laws about gun licenses, not the number of license holders.
Well played there
The only issue i have with your article is, that it implies that most of the people in Germany have personal weapons at home ( like in the US ) which is certainly incorrect.
Owned weapons in Germany are very grouped together around people who either have an interests in them ( sports, hunting ) or horde them other reasons ( WW stuff and so on ).
And as someone rightly stated the people who use them for sport or hunting have them at the club house and not at home.
( The following is total speculation )
If we go with the ~30 mio weapons estimate i personally think that ~20 mio are old weapons from the WorldWars or the Coldwar area and are only "used" by collectors or fanatics with the other 10 mio. new ones being used by sportsmen or hunters with most of them being stored on a club house.
On July 08 2011 18:48 Maxhster wrote: I also fail to see your point, do you want people in germany to approve of gun ownership?
I want to educate people here on TL about the reality in Germany. What conclusion you draw from this is completely up to you.
I don't see why you would think I am in favor of private gun ownership. If you compare to what I have written here to the arguments and numbers the gun lobby in Germany spread, you will find that they downplay these facts as much as possible. The gun lobby are the ones that want the general public to keep their believe in the supposedly strict gun laws and low number of guns in Germany, to avoid any further initiatives for stricter gun laws.
your post makes it sound like those weapons are used for safety issues when they are not. you have to keep the firearm and its ammunition seperated in safes, which makes them useless to protect yourself. the only people i know that have weapons are using them for hunting, sports or they are collectors.
I dont get the point of this at all. Wtf does gun ownership have to do with peace?
For example gun ownership is extremely widespread in Switzerland and Sweden. At the same time both countries havent gone to war for an extremely long time. They are as peaceful as it gets.
And why do you bring the gun ownership up anyway? Is it a problem that you can legally own guns in Germany in your opinion? Or are you positive about it, pointing out that we are not as restricted in our liberties as some people seem to think? In the sense that you can go and own a gun as a law-abiding citizen. Although you are not allowed to use them for home defense or carry them in public anyway, so thats kinda pointless.
I didnt get the EU bit either. The EU forces members to participate in wars now or what?
This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides.
Every single EU member would have to agree to military action under that clause. Which will basically never happen. There is a reason the US supported the extension of EU, which is making it ineffective to act as a cohesive power block.
Im really suprised about the number of weapons in civil hands. But now that I think about it I realise that there are a lot of people I know that collect special weapons. (1 goes for swords, 1 old ww2 weapons etc) but there are also a lot of marksmen groups. There is a marksmen village in nearly every "big" village. [we dont have a lot to do in the eifel and germans love to be in clubs - you could make this your next subject]
I think this is also a big factor in this statistic that there are a lot of hunters/marksmen. + those who collect weapons.
Well, I think you can not just list figures, US citizens mostly own weapons to defend themselves or because "why the hell not", or am I mistaken?
Germans mostly own weapons for hunting, recreational shooting etc, or am I also mistaken?
I never heard someone in Germany say he owns a weapon for reasons of self defence, altough there are ppl who would cite that as their reason, no doubt.
On July 08 2011 19:29 Redox wrote: I dont get the point of this at all. Wtf does gun ownership have to do with peace?
I guess the title was a bit misleading. I wanted to write about a number of issues under the broad umbrella of peace where the public opinion of Germans collide with the actual facts. I do think gun ownership is a valid topic in that regard.
I didnt get the EU bit either. The EU forces members to participate in wars now or what?
This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides.
Every single EU member would have to agree to military action under that clause. Which will basically never happen.
The Council is made up of the member states' governments. Which means that the member states' executive branch can order military action, without the legislative even being heard, and without checks by the judicative branch. Again, not even in the Kaiserreich was the executive granted powers like this.
Arguing that it's not going to happen anyway is a dangerous idea to me when we talk about the concepts of peace of war.
On July 08 2011 19:50 MBH wrote: Germans mostly own weapons for hunting, recreational shooting etc, or am I also mistaken?
I never heard someone in Germany say he owns a weapon for reasons of self defence, altough there are ppl who would cite that as their reason, no doubt.
Certainly correct. I have made no claims otherwise.
You can officially apply for a gun license on the grounds of self defense in Germany too, but your chances to get the license granted are much lower, and you need very good reason. So I suppose people interested in that usually just join a shooting club and apply for the sports license.
You guys seem to think I have a certain intention with regard to gun politics with this thread. I don't, I just like to present some facts most people are oblivious about.
I don't know anyone that owns a gun and it has also never been a point of discussion when I am with people. The chance that a thread like "Which guns do you own/plan to own" like we have in general would be opened by a german is probably non-existent. And we also just don't have them to protect our house or our family.
But since the point you wanted to get across is that it is not hard to get a weapons licence in germany, I did not know about that, so that is definitely interesting.
Still, the nubmer of guns (25million) is really just a number that does not tell us anything in my opinion. However, there are quite a few weapon-shops in the centre of bigger cities, so there definitely seems to be demand for weapons.
"After World War II, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism which had devastated the continent" -->wikipedia
The idea was to prevent war within europe, and so there is a requirement that all countries provide resources towards a joint european army.
Nicely written, but nothing really new for me. Nearly everything you said is pretty common knowledge, at least as far as I and my friends/ family is concerned.
What I didn'T like is that you say 25 Mio Guns is basically 1 for every third Person. Yes I know it's mathematically somewhat correct, but in may show a false picture for someone reading it. In reality I'm sure theres less then 10% or even 5% of the population who owns a gun. Only those have 3-6 guns on average putting the gun per person on 0.3 .
I usually like your articles but this one was pretty subjective and thus bad. You make it sound like there are a lot of firearms in german households which is definately not true.
The majority of the weapons are NOT automatic or semi-automatic but weapons used (and stored...) in shooting ranges. Those weapons actually have very strict laws that enforce you to separate weapon and ammunition as well as store it in a safe. This is why most of the weapons are NOT in the houses of the people. So the laws are very strict compared to the rest of the world (however the control of it is not). A major flaw is also your interpretation how these weapon are used in germany. You are not allowed to go to the woods and shoot some trees or setup you own firing range. It is very much regulated and controlled when you are shooting at a local shooting club.
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
On July 08 2011 20:32 fleeze wrote: I usually like your articles but this one was pretty subjective and thus bad. You make it sound like there are a lot of firearms in german households which is definately not true.
What was subjective about it and what was bad? All my other articles are subjective, this is one of few where I just write facts and not just claims based only on personal experience.
What is a lot? If the number of 4 million gun licenses I believe to remember is correct than that is 4 million owners in a country of 40 million households. I didn't post these numbers since I don't have reliable sources for them. You can decide yourself if that is a lot or not.
I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make.
The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts.
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
I am not an outspoken gun opponent. I just don't care. I have nerver witnessed a conversation about guns, that is all I am saying. Maybe there are also major regional differences, I don't know.
My problem is here that you make it sound that guns are a mass pheonmena in germany, which they are not. There is no silent majority of 15million people who are afraid of talking about them being gun owners because of the social stigma. I cannot argue against your numbers, since you did the research and I did not. But just pulling the number "25million" out of the hat is simply misleading. What exactly does this number tell me? That there are lots of guns in our country. I suspected this beforehand.
But since we are talking about statistics, just look up some number about gun-crimes in germany. the number is just freakishly low, weapons are simply not a part of our daily life. Just that these weapons exist and that someone ones them doesn't do anything if they are nearly never being used for anything harmful ever (And 2-3 school-shootings hardly count).
"Total Guns" is a bit of a useless metric. How many of them are used/designed for Sport-Shooting/Hunting (and are probably even locked up at the shooting-range? I have no idea myself)? How many just lie around to kill evil burglars? .
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
There is no silent majority of 15million people who are afraid of talking about them being gun owners because of the social stigma.
I am saying there is a silent minority of 4 million people. Again, it's for everyone to decide for themselves if that is a lot or not.
I put the number of 25mio in the OP since it most drastically shows the difference in what the public believes about gun ownership and what is actually true. That, and I was a bit shocked myself that it was so many - I would have expected something like 12mio. But I have updated that section now to make it clear the one gun for every three people wasn't supposed to imly an even distribution.
Also I don't see how gun crime or the actual usage of the guns has any relevance to the topic I wanted to talk about: That what most people think in Germany about guns in their own country in respect of numbers and ease of access is just wrong.
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make.
I dont think so, because there was no obvious point. People (like myself) were more asking what his point was.
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts.
Noone said that. Dont make up quotes. There is a quote function on this forum for a reason. And the numbers presented here are not new to me at all.
Also, as said before, these weapon numbers do appear to be somewhat pointless as they are not indicative of the number of gun owners. Also, the legal firearms in Germany are virtually never involved in gun crimes.
A compliment to you for the entire series. Kept me reading and grinning and smirking and realizing why I felt so alien in a country where I've lived for 2 1/2 years. About the guns.. I seriously hate the action -> reaction politics of the government, like with the school shooting for example. A tragedy like that happens and it's a must that laws be changed, even if they are minor, inconsequential, irrational changes. It's like the public needs a vent, to be assured that action has been taken so they can rest assured and get on with the next topic. When this way of dealing with incidents becomes the norm it can generate loopholes, like conspiracy terrorist action just to get the momentum to push an illegal law through without too much public resistance. That's where I see the major concern for safety in the future, not how many guns people own. Very good blog-series.
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
On July 08 2011 20:32 fleeze wrote: I usually like your articles but this one was pretty subjective and thus bad. You make it sound like there are a lot of firearms in german households which is definately not true.
What was subjective about it and what was bad? All my other articles are subjective, this is one of few where I just write facts and not just claims based only on personal experience.
What is a lot? If the number of 4 million gun licenses I believe to remember is correct than that is 4 million owners in a country of 40 million households. I didn't post these numbers since I don't have reliable sources for them. You can decide yourself if that is a lot or not.
You put it into a wrong perspective for foreigners. That's what I don't like about it. And maybe you are stating facts, but you forgot to mention the side effects.
Yes I agree with you that there are guns in german households. But it's in no way comparable to the US or other countries with less strict gun laws. There may be 4 million gun licensees (which are not households but people), but how many of these 4 million store there guns at home? My guess would be it's way less than 50%. Most of the guns are stored at the shooting ranges because the laws on gun storage are really strict in Germany. And most of these gun owners don't just have guns for the fun of it or for self-defense (like in the US). They are part of a shooting club or are hunters (which requires a strict certification in Germany too).
On July 08 2011 21:01 Velr wrote: "Total Guns" is a bit of a useless metric. How many of them are used/designed for Sport-Shooting/Hunting (and are probably even locked up at the shooting-range? I have no idea myself)? How many just lie around to kill evil burglars? .
this is exactly my point. Most (My guess would be 90%+) are designed for shooting or hunting. NONE lie around to kill evil burglars because it is forbidden to store your gun outside of a safe. You are not allowed to have a gun in the kitchen or next to your bed in Germany. AND you have to store the ammunition at a separate place so you would in no way be able to collect your gun and arm it if a burglar entered your house.
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
On July 08 2011 20:32 fleeze wrote: I usually like your articles but this one was pretty subjective and thus bad. You make it sound like there are a lot of firearms in german households which is definately not true.
What was subjective about it and what was bad? All my other articles are subjective, this is one of few where I just write facts and not just claims based only on personal experience.
What is a lot? If the number of 4 million gun licenses I believe to remember is correct than that is 4 million owners in a country of 40 million households. I didn't post these numbers since I don't have reliable sources for them. You can decide yourself if that is a lot or not.
You put it into a wrong perspective for foreigners. That's what I don't like about it. And maybe you are stating facts, but you forgot to mention the side effects.
Yes I agree with you that there are guns in german households. But it's in no way comparable to the US or other countries with less strict gun laws. There may be 4 million gun licensees (which are not households but people), but how many of these 4 million store there guns at home? My guess would be it's way less than 50%. Most of the guns are stored at the shooting ranges because the laws on gun storage are really strict in Germany. And most of these gun owners don't just have guns for the fun of it or for self-defense (like in the US). They are part of a shooting club or are hunters (which requires a strict certification in Germany too).
There are conflicting numbers out there, and unfortunately most of them are published by the gun lobby so should be taken with a grain of salt. What they say though is either 10% of households own guns (Canadian Firearms Centre study from 1998), or that there are 4-5mio issued licenses.
Considering storage at home: You need a safe certified for gun storage, and a lockable case for transportation. Guns may not be stored loaded, or in fact be loaded anywhere but a shooting range.
I fail to see how this is "really strict". Seems more like common sense to me. Anyway of all the gun owners I know none of them stores their guns at the range.
And how is being part of a shooting club for competitive or recreational shooting not "having the gun for the fun of it"?
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
There is no silent majority of 15million people who are afraid of talking about them being gun owners because of the social stigma.
I am saying there is a silent minority of 4 million people. Again, it's for everyone to decide for themselves if that is a lot or not.
I put the number of 25mio in the OP since it most drastically shows the difference in what the public believes about gun ownership and what is actually true. That, and I was a bit shocked myself that it was so many - I would have expected something like 12mio. But I have updated that section now to make it clear the one gun for every three people wasn't supposed to imly an even distribution.
Also I don't see how gun crime or the actual usage of the guns has any relevance to the topic I wanted to talk about: That what most people think in Germany about guns in their own country in respect of numbers and ease of access is just wrong.
As has already come up, I just think that you presented the topic a bit misleading. Gun crime or usage of guns has no relevance towards the point you were trying to make, but you labeled the blog peace and pacifism, and then said there are at least 4 million gun holders and 25 million weapons. I think for a lot of people this basically implies that they are used and that they are common in daily life and we germans just don't want to hear about it or present ourselves differently towards other countries. That was just what I wanted to tackle, because if you are not a gun owner or go to a Schützenverein, your contact with guns in germany is basically non-existent.
The facts you are showing are as I already said quite interesting and I didn't know about that stuff. I always thought getting a gun in germany would be a huge upstacle.
On July 08 2011 20:20 Malinor wrote: I don't know anyone that owns a gun.
That's the thing. How would you know? Aside from that personal experience is not really the most reliable source, but I can give you a counter example: Part of my family are hunters, and have been for generations. Everyone of them owns at least one hunting rifle.
My boss at work has a small collections of guns. My cousin is a competetive sports shooter. My neighbor in downtown Munich has a whole case full of semi automatic assault rifles, his brother owns guns as well.
Several people I went to university with were gun owners and regular shooters. Yet probably all my other class mates, as well as my other coworkers will say too "I have never met anyone who has a gun" since it's just not something people like to talk about in public. If you are an outspoken opponent of gun ownership it is very likely you will never meet someone who has guns since they will just not want to talk to you about that, much less bring the topic up themselves.
On July 08 2011 20:32 fleeze wrote: I usually like your articles but this one was pretty subjective and thus bad. You make it sound like there are a lot of firearms in german households which is definately not true.
What was subjective about it and what was bad? All my other articles are subjective, this is one of few where I just write facts and not just claims based only on personal experience.
What is a lot? If the number of 4 million gun licenses I believe to remember is correct than that is 4 million owners in a country of 40 million households. I didn't post these numbers since I don't have reliable sources for them. You can decide yourself if that is a lot or not.
You put it into a wrong perspective for foreigners. That's what I don't like about it. And maybe you are stating facts, but you forgot to mention the side effects.
Yes I agree with you that there are guns in german households. But it's in no way comparable to the US or other countries with less strict gun laws. There may be 4 million gun licensees (which are not households but people), but how many of these 4 million store there guns at home? My guess would be it's way less than 50%. Most of the guns are stored at the shooting ranges because the laws on gun storage are really strict in Germany. And most of these gun owners don't just have guns for the fun of it or for self-defense (like in the US). They are part of a shooting club or are hunters (which requires a strict certification in Germany too).
There are conflicting numbers out there, and unfortunately most of them are published by the gun lobby so should be taken with a grain of salt. What they say though is either 10% of households own guns (Canadian Firearms Centre study from 1998), or that there are 4-5mio issued licenses.
Considering storage at home: You need a safe certified for gun storage, and a lockable case for transportation. Guns may not be stored loaded, or in fact be loaded anywhere but a shooting range.
I fail to see how this is "really strict". Seems more like common sense to me. Anyway of all the gun owners I know none of them stores their guns at the range.
And how is being part of a shooting club for competitive or recreational shooting not "having the gun for the fun of it"?
Well, I agree with you here. I just wanted to avoid that people think something like in my quoted post above.
Also I agree with Malinor. It just sounds wrong in the context of your OP.
I just want to say this article was informative and it really wasn't misleading. The facts were presented with a "this is surprising" tone because, as shown by the responses from Germans in this thread, the figures are a surprise.
On July 08 2011 19:50 MBH wrote: Germans mostly own weapons for hunting, recreational shooting etc, or am I also mistaken?
I never heard someone in Germany say he owns a weapon for reasons of self defence, altough there are ppl who would cite that as their reason, no doubt.
Certainly correct. I have made no claims otherwise.
You can officially apply for a gun license on the grounds of self defense in Germany too, but your chances to get the license granted are much lower, and you need very good reason. So I suppose people interested in that usually just join a shooting club and apply for the sports license.
You guys seem to think I have a certain intention with regard to gun politics with this thread. I don't, I just like to present some facts most people are oblivious about.
if you apply for sport or rec use, are you not permitted to have at home or something?? What if you have it at home and shoot someone trying to break in or something? Different ballgame than if you did it after declaring that you wanted it for self defense??
On July 08 2011 19:50 MBH wrote: Germans mostly own weapons for hunting, recreational shooting etc, or am I also mistaken?
I never heard someone in Germany say he owns a weapon for reasons of self defence, altough there are ppl who would cite that as their reason, no doubt.
Certainly correct. I have made no claims otherwise.
You can officially apply for a gun license on the grounds of self defense in Germany too, but your chances to get the license granted are much lower, and you need very good reason. So I suppose people interested in that usually just join a shooting club and apply for the sports license.
You guys seem to think I have a certain intention with regard to gun politics with this thread. I don't, I just like to present some facts most people are oblivious about.
if you apply for sport or rec use, are you not permitted to have at home or something?? What if you have it at home and shoot someone trying to break in or something? Different ballgame than if you did it after declaring that you wanted it for self defense??
You are alllowed to keep them at home, but unloaded and in a gun safe. So, yes, this is pretty much the difference, if you shoot someone with a gun issued for recreational use it would probably result in different court rulings than with a gun issued for self defense. Although I am no expert on the actual laws on self defense in that case.
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make.
The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts.
where are the hard facts he cites? i only see estimates and guesses which leads to foreign ppl like you to believe that what he writes is the truth, but i dont see any Evidence or reliable source in there.
btw, a psychological evaluation and a 2 year membership in a "schützenverein" is necessary to get the große Waffenschein. And that only allows you to use that gun in said environment, getting a gun home is a whole other deal. Compairing getting a drivers licence (which costs close to 2000€ in germany) and getting a Waffenschein is really off.
Leading foreigner like the swede above to believe germans are a weapon loving gun packed country is just plain wrong.
Connecting the topic 'German misconceptions about peace and pacifism' to an article about german gun laws is misleading by itself.
I don't see how weapons, in the hands of a hunter or a sport shooter (?), if used without any criminal intent, interfere with any concept of peace or pacifism I know of.
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make.
The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts.
No one is arguing his facts, since he has very valid and legit sources, but the point he tries to transfer in the OP is simply wrong. Plain and simply wrong Why? Read the thread ... nearly everyone who commented on the thread said the same why :o
On July 08 2011 20:44 Cuddle wrote: I like how the more Germans who come into this thread denying, bashing and counter-arguing the points/facts in the OP kind of cements the whole point the OP is trying to make.
The argument "I don't know anyone with guns. You source must be wrong." just proves that it's a touchy subject and you'd rather go with the widely believed truth than check up on the facts.
where are the hard facts he cites? i only see estimates and guesses which leads to foreign ppl like you to believe that what he writes is the truth, but i dont see any Evidence or reliable source in there.
btw, a psychological evaluation and a 2 year membership in a "schützenverein" is necessary to get the große Waffenschein. And that only allows you to use that gun in said environment, getting a gun home is a whole other deal. Compairing getting a drivers licence (which costs close to 2000€ in germany) and getting a Waffenschein is really off.
Leading foreigner like the swede above to believe germans are a weapon loving gun packed country is just plain wrong.
Guns are not centrally registered, so estimates are the only facts you can get. You can always show me estimates that say something different.
I don't know where you get this information from. There is no "grosser Waffenschein". There is the Waffenschein, which is a concealed carry license, and which is not issued to anyone without a need - like professional body guards and other security personnel. This is not at all what I am talking about.
I don't know what you mean by "getting a gun home" being a whole other deal. Having a gun at home is exactly what a ownership license allows you to. Regarding the comparison, the cost of shooting club membership is less than for driving lessons. You will need more lessons for the gun proficiency. I said it's harder to get your gun ownership, but not by a lot. I stand by that.
XiaN, I have not said anything that is plain wrong (well, to my knowledge). Please show me where.
On July 08 2011 22:52 Maxhster wrote: Leading foreigner like the swede above to believe germans are a weapon loving gun packed country is just plain wrong.
I don't say that. I say the opposite. Germans are such a peace loving folk they will simply ignore or even deny that it is perfectly possible to own all kinds of guns for the average guy, and that there are lots (meaning about 4 million) average guys who do that.
As others have pointed out this thread is a good example of that oddity.
XiaN, I have not said anything that is plain wrong (well, to my knowledge). Please show me where.
Like i said one post above, the facts you quoted are correct, but the message you want to transport with the OP is wrong. I just double checked and all of the responses are pointing out the same error in your OP. You imply that most of the personal german households ( or at least every 1:3 ) has a gun at home and all the responses pointed out that this is not the case. Everyone said that the weapons in Germany are highly centered around people who use them for Sports, Hunting or Collecting. Its noway common in Germany to have a gun ... especially not at home.
Like i said before, i enjoyed all your previous posts about german facts and all of them where correct, but here you are wrong ... and most of the comments stating that out. Its now up to you to either accept your fault or try to defend it.
Its your blog, so its up to you
PS: I find it pretty interesting that there are 0 comments covering/backing up your point on the OP. Even on the dumbest topic on SC2 strat or SC2 general there is at least one pep on the first three pages who agrees with the OP. Here its none. Would make me think, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks for all your blogs Zatic. With this one popping up I actually went to your first one and read all of them, but I didn't want to bump 5threads just to say good work and thanks :D
Anyway, after reading the OP, and the responses, and then reading the OP again, I noticed how barely anyone touched the latter half of the blog relating to the lisbon treaty/EU and everyone got stuck on the gun ownership issue. While I can join the list of people saying they don't own a gun and only know one acquaintance that does, I think the two relevant parts of the OP that have caused so much discussion are;
Germans are incredibly proud of their strict gun laws, and the supposedly low number of guns that exist in Germany. Have a look at any topic where guns are discussed on TL, and you will find a German pacifist voicing disbelief how a US forum poster can have an assault rifle at home.
and
In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households.
As this blog was aimed at the fellow Germans here on TL, I think it is relevant to discuss both the source Zatic posted as well as relevant legislation here in Germany.
Firstly, I'd like to point to two bits of information from the Small Arms Survey, where the section you want to be checking starts on page 51 of the pdf.
Germany illustrates typical problems of estimation. The country has a long history of civilian gun ownership, encouraged by militia-based armies in the 19th century, the side effects of two world wars, and interest in hunting and sport shooting. Although gun ownership is widespread, Germany has relatively little gun crime. Firearm murders amount to 150–300 annually and suicides total some 900 per year (Cukier and Sidel, 2005, p. 35). Gun ownership usually receives little attention, except in the wake of mass shootings. The most serious recent incident occurred in Erfurt in 2003. A similar, but much less deadly, incident occurred on 21 November 2006, when a high school student in Emsdetten, near Münster, shot and wounded five people before killing himself (Jüttner, 2006). Such incidents are instrumental in shaping German public attitudes toward gun ownership. German gun laws are permissive. Current members of shooting and hunting clubs, the country’s most visible, but a minority of all, owners number 1.6 million and 340,000, respectively (Graff, 2002). Sport shooters are allowed to own up to four handguns, three semi-automatic rifles or shotguns, and ‘any reasonable number’ of single-shot firearms. Hunters are limited to ‘two handguns for final shots of wounded animals’, but ‘any reasonable number’ of rifles and shotguns (IMC, 2006, p. 2). In practice, this allows the accumulation of large collections, illustrated in 2005 by the revelation of 120 unregistered fire-arms belonging to a collector in the Black Forest. He was prosecuted, but only for insecure storage (Der Enztäler, 2005, p. 6).
I'm not sure where Zatic got the 4million gun owners from, as its unrelated to this source, however this neatly ties into the problem that gun ownership and gun usage are separate licenses. There is a big difference between a Waffenbesitzkarte (ownership card) and a Waffenschein(Weapon Usage License), not to mention with legislation introduced in 2002 of the new kleiner Waffenschein (there is no Großer Waffenschein). As stated by various others, Zatic drew a correct statistic by saying 1:3 have guns, but if you draw the correct conclusion and see that (according to the survey about 2million in clubs) 4million people out of a population of 82million possibly OWN(not usage license) guns, then the numbers seem much less dramatic. Zatic also mentioned before that the underlying criticism Germans might show towards Gun Ownership in the US isn't so much the issue that Americans can own those guns, but rather they'd have the legitimate right to use them. If you opened up on a burglar with an m16 in Germany you'd probably end up in prison longer than the burglar would. To top all this off is the fact that gun laws are state and region specific. Lastly I want to draw everyone away from the Gun ownership issue and point out that elaborating on the Lisbon treaty and Germany's general attitude towards the EU is a much more interesting subject and hopefully Zatic will take the time to elaborate on it in a separate blog not overshadowed by Guns. Also, I thought this would lighten the mood a little
On July 08 2011 17:37 zatic wrote: German misconceptions about peace and pacifism
Another in my opinion misconceived notion is that of the peaceful European Union. The EU is so closely connected to peace in the German mind that arguing against that notion will make people here seriously doubt your sanity. It is undenieable that one goal of the EU was a peaceful Europe. What brought us peace however is the European integration, not the institution of the EU. Yes, it certainly helped on the process. However a popular claim I keep hearing is that were the EU to fail or to be abolish, we would return to our pre war habit of invading each other every few years. What a ridiculous idea.
Looking at the EU as it is today, I don't see its peacful nature anyway. The Lisbon treaty specificially demands each signing member to progressivily enhance their military capabilities. How peaceful is an institution that requires armament and military spending? In addition to that it contains a mutual military assistance clause and asks member states to supply military forces to a European command. It also allows European troops to be deployed under that command in 3rd party countries within the war agianst Terror. These deployments are not to be sanctioned by parliament and their rightfulness not to be checked by the European high court. This is so ridiculously against our very constitution that I really can't understand how Germany did sign this treaty in good faith.
From another perspective, if you look at the provisions and requirements for military action of German forces according to the Lisbon treaty, German rulers have had a harder time using military force during the 2nd German Reich and the Weimar Republic. Even the Kaiser had to ask parliament for a declaration of war and an approval of military spending.
These are the two very common misconceptions about peace I encounter when talking with fellow Germans regularly. I am happy to expand on the topics in the comments as I didn't have the time to flesh out this article as much as I wanted to.
As I feel the rest of your post was addressed by other posters I just wanted comment on this. I really do believe that the EU is the main reason why we haven't had a war between the major european powers for more than 70 years now. The union has intertwined the ecconomies of the european nations to the point where a war is essentially unthinkable and for all its bureaucracy and lack of transparancy that one thing justifies the union a dozen times over in my mind.
On July 10 2011 03:05 Madoga wrote: Germany has nearly 10 times more civilian guns per person than the Netherlands. Bunch or warmongers! You can find statistics for each country here.
Well, the Netherlands have not even a fifth of germanys population...
-> A lot of people own guns for personal safety, but only 1-2 weapons per household. -> Nearly everyone owns a gun and its not limited to sports, collectors or crazy people
I'm pretty sure that the majority of the weapons in Germany are old ones from either the world wars I and II or the cold war.
This is not true. While there are people who enjoying shooting, people who think guns are important for self defense, and some people who just really like guns for the sake of having guns, I doubt 1/3 of households in suburbs have a gun. You might remember in 2004 when Kerry had some photos taken of him hunting and carrying a gun for his campaign, and most of the population didn't believe he was really a gun owner. Unlikely reaction if nearly everyone owned a gun.
Most college campuses don't allow weapons either.
The people who want to own guns usually have quite a few. It would be like averaging the number of cigarettes in the country, and assuming most people buy hundreds or thousands of cartons a year, only more extreme.
On July 10 2011 03:05 Madoga wrote: Germany has nearly 10 times more civilian guns per person than the Netherlands. Bunch or warmongers! You can find statistics for each country here.
Well, the Netherlands have not even a fifth of germanys population...
Per 100 people, so it doesn't matter how big the population is.
-> A lot of people own guns for personal safety, but only 1-2 weapons per household. -> Nearly everyone owns a gun and its not limited to sports, collectors or crazy people
I'm pretty sure that the majority of the weapons in Germany are old ones from either the world wars I and II or the cold war.
This is not true. While there are people who enjoying shooting, people who think guns are important for self defense, and some people who just really like guns for the sake of having guns, I doubt 1/3 of households in suburbs have a gun. You might remember in 2004 when Kerry had some photos taken of him hunting and carrying a gun for his campaign, and most of the population didn't believe he was really a gun owner. Unlikely reaction if nearly everyone owned a gun.
Most college campuses don't allow weapons either.
The people who want to own guns usually have quite a few. It would be like averaging the number of cigarettes in the country, and assuming most people buy hundreds or thousands of cartons a year, only more extreme.
Nah i'm not trying to say that every 3rd household on the US is a crazy gunhorder and has a lot of weapons at home, but compared to Germany its just more common on the US to have a SINGLE gun at home. At least every 2rd household on your street has a gun at home for the purpose of self-defense.
The point was that in Germany only a very few people own a lot of guns, while most of the population ( e.g. the dudes in your street ) own none.
Interesting blog, educational statistics, and interesting responses so far as well. I can't really say a lot about private gun ownership in Germany as that's a topic I've never dabbled in, but I'm glad the topic is treated the way it is here. Better this way than every third or second household actually having a gun ready and accessible and people being able to buy ammunition at Kaufland or Aldi.
The part about the EU is a bit off in my opinion. Sure, it was founded with the concept of financial bonding eliminating inner-european warfare, but why shouldn't the EU coordinate its' members militaries? Since it's basically a quasi-continental govermental body, defense is an important topic as well. We've seen in the past what happened when outside bodies, usually the US, called for military support for more or less justified reasons and the EU was subsequently divided into blocks with a variety of opinions.
The part about the EU is a bit off in my opinion. Sure, it was founded with the concept of financial bonding eliminating inner-european warfare, but why shouldn't the EU coordinate its' members militaries? Since it's basically a quasi-continental govermental body, defense is an important topic as well. We've seen in the past what happened when outside bodies, usually the US, called for military support for more or less justified reasons and the EU was subsequently divided into blocks with a variety of opinions.
Why should the EU not supercede the German constitution in military deployments? For one matter, it will inevitably conflict with Germany's status as a sovereign state capable of conducting her own military and foreign policy. The ultimate implication would be the overruling of the auswärtiges Amt by the foreign policy chiefs of the European Council (read: Ms. Ashton; a consideration grotesque enough to merit a complete dismissal of the matter.)
The option of leaving a sovereign veto defeats the purpose of military unity in the first place. It's the Montequieuian principle of military command concentrated in the hands of a capable executive.
1. Speaking as an American who is a supporter of a strong Europe and a strong US-EU relationship, Europe really needs to arm itself. Defense of borders and projection of force beyond borders are basic state functions.
2. I laughed at the non-US poster stating that nearly everyone in the US has a gun. I don't know the statistics off-hand but it's nowhere near everyone. More interesting is the political power of gun ownership in the US and the constitutional and normative protection it enjoys. The National Rifle Association is one of the three most powerful political organizations we have (the others being AARP and AIPAC).
1 major mistake you made there sir, is that you converted 25 mil civilian owned guns to 1 in 3 people being armed - 25 million guns doesn't mean that 25 million people own a gun... it is far more likely that a much smaller number of people own multiple guns.
Most of germanys illegal weapons are inherited and ppl and they forget to make a new gun-ownership permission. (Or simply dont do anything with these weapons) I know for example an old lady who owns many guns from her dead husband (who was a hunter) and now she just doesnt know what to do with them.
Also, you have to see the fact that germany has one of the lowest rates for muders/manslaughters (germany around 0.8 intentional homicide cases per 100.000 ppl per year, USA 5.2/100.000). And only around 1/10 of all cases of murder are done with guns in germany. (Thats pretty low)
I think its the general mentality. Most of the gun owners dont own guns out of a need for self-defense. I once talked with a gun owner about zombie-invasions and it actually was the first time he thought about a diffrent use for his guns other than sports.
Zatic: There are actually diffrent kinds of permissions. Diffrent types of permissions to own a weapon "Waffenbesitzkarte" (yellow, red and green). A "Waffenbesitzkarte" gives you permission to own a gun and use them at home, you can also transport them (as long as you dont carry them open in public, they also have to be unloaded). And there is a normal "Waffenschein" and a "kleiner Waffenschein" (for stuff like electro-shock weapons or teargas). A normal Waffenschein is only given in rare cases.
On July 10 2011 10:58 sick_transit wrote: Interesting post--I learned something.
1. Speaking as an American who is a supporter of a strong Europe and a strong US-EU relationship, Europe really needs to arm itself. Defense of borders and projection of force beyond borders are basic state functions.
2. I laughed at the non-US poster stating that nearly everyone in the US has a gun. I don't know the statistics off-hand but it's nowhere near everyone. More interesting is the political power of gun ownership in the US and the constitutional and normative protection it enjoys. The National Rifle Association is one of the three most powerful political organizations we have (the others being AARP and AIPAC).
Wtf? Civilian gun ownership has nothing to do with a functioning military. The two are completely separate, and every European country has a competent and well-prepared military, enough to defend itself.
There's also NATO, so...I don't really understand your first point.
Second point...it's a common misconception, seeing as a lot of gun owners here in the U.S. are really vocal about their opinions, whereas most of the rest of the population is rather subdued on the issue.
In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into
This is pretty misleading and although t might sound weird, I have to admit that I'm kinda dissappointed in you for writing it that way. It should be obvious, that people who have a gun often have more than one, but by writing it that way it really sounds like a third of the german population has guns at home. I know that you probably didn't mean it that way zatic, and that it's not your fault that people don't think it through, but making a little subclause, which regards that topic, wouldn't have been much work, but it would've cleared that up.
I'm seem to recall seeing zatic post these numbers in a topic some time ago and the same type of comments regarding the "1 gun for every 3 people" phrase popping up.
I don't personally see that as misleading. It's saying there is about 1 civilian-owned gun for every 3 people in Germany, and it makes no claims at all about how those guns are distributed. I don't see a way to convey that information in a more-neutral tone that isn't being redundant. I mean, in the very next sentence zatic quite clearly says that it's not one third of civilians who own guns (~4 million owners). You need more words than that to make it clear he's just presenting the facts in a way that keeps the number of guns related to the number of people?
On July 31 2011 16:48 crate wrote: I'm seem to recall seeing zatic post these numbers in a topic some time ago and the same type of comments regarding the "1 gun for every 3 people" phrase popping up.
I don't personally see that as misleading. It's saying there is about 1 civilian-owned gun for every 3 people in Germany, and it makes no claims at all about how those guns are distributed. I don't see a way to convey that information in a more-neutral tone that isn't being redundant. I mean, in the very next sentence zatic quite clearly says that it's not one third of civilians who own guns (~4 million owners). You need more words than that to make it clear he's just presenting the facts in a way that keeps the number of guns related to the number of people?
Well I understood it right, but if you read some of the first comments you'll see that others didn't...
haha wow it's hilarious watching the germans get riled out and denying/questioning the valicity of these stats/zatic's motive behind posting, because that is exactly the attitude zatic is describing. even funnier because there are sources posted and the statistics aren't even weird..
In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into
This is pretty misleading and although t might sound weird, I have to admit that I'm kinda dissappointed in you for writing it that way. It should be obvious, that people who have a gun often have more than one, but by writing it that way it really sounds like a third of the german population has guns at home. I know that you probably didn't mean it that way zatic, and that it's not your fault that people don't think it through, but making a little subclause, which regards that topic, wouldn't have been much work, but it would've cleared that up.
what the HELL? this is the worst intentional mangling of a quote I have ever seen, reading your post was intellectually offensive. zatic writes:In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into perspective, there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households.
and you quote him and you remove the part where he specifically states that there are about 4 million gun owners in a country of 40 million households. (meaning that you have, according to zatic's post, which you clearly read, at most, assuming that no households have multiple licences, one gun owner per 10 households.) Following this, you accuse him of falsely painting a picture of germany as a country where one third of the population has guns, when the part of his quote that YOU removed explicitly states that this is not the case?
On August 01 2011 09:39 Liquid`Drone wrote: haha wow it's hilarious watching the germans get riled out and denying/questioning the valicity of these stats/zatic's motive behind posting, because that is exactly the attitude zatic is describing. even funnier because there are sources posted and the statistics aren't even weird..
This just makes my head spin. If you feel something is wrong or not described the right way, you can point it out. Of course germans are pointing it out, who else would? I have already given my thoughts on page2, so no need to repeat that here in-depth. but just to sum it up again: The blog is called peace and pacifism, goes straight into gun laws (I still don't see the obvious connection here) and then proceeds with the quote that germany is armed to his teeth. As a german, who has never had a gun, never saw a gun besides in a store or on a policeman, never talked about gun-ownership with anyone and has never overheard a conversation about guns, it must be allowed to point that out. As others have said, the sheer number of 25million guns tells you next to nothing besides that there are lots of weapons in this country, which is what I learned through this blog. But still, there are nearly no homocides involving guns, there are nearly no shootings you ever hear of nor do you ever hear of burglars who were shot or shot someone. The exposure to guns is simply not there and it seems they are simply used for sports or hunting in nearly all cases.
edit: directly out of zatic's source (http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/full/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-EN.pdf): + Show Spoiler +
Germany illustrates typical problems of estimation. The country has a long history of civilian gun ownership, encouraged by militia-based armies in the 19th century, the side effects of two world wars, and interest in hunting and sport shooting. Although gun ownership is widespread, Germany has relatively little gun crime. Firearm murders amount to 150–300 annually and suicides total some 900 per year (Cukier and Sidel, 2005, p. 35). Gun ownership usually receives little attention, except in the wake of mass shootings. The most serious recent incident occurred in Erfurt in 2003. A similar, but much less deadly, incident occurred on 21 November 2006, when a high school student in Emsdetten, near Münster, shot and wounded five people before killing himself (Jüttner, 2006). Such incidents are instrumental in shaping German public attitudes toward gun ownership. German gun laws are permissive. Current members of shooting and hunting clubs, the country’s most visible, but a minority of all, owners number 1.6 million and 340,000, respectively (Graff, 2002). Sport shooters are allowed to own up to four handguns, three semi-automatic rifles or shotguns, and ‘any reasonable number’ of single-shot firearms. Hunters are limited to ‘two handguns for final shots of wounded animals’, but ‘any reasonable number’ of rifles and shotguns (IMC, 2006, p. 2). In practice, this allows the accumulation of large collections, illustrated in 2005 by the revelation of 120 unregistered firearms belonging to a collector in the Black Forest. He was prosecuted, but only for insecure storage (Der Enztäler, 2005, p. 6). There are no reliable totals for German gun ownership. The country has no central registry. Records are maintained by the state (Land) or county (Landkreis). Even when made available, moreover, registration statistics appear highly incomplete. There is no agreement on when to include particular categories such as starter pistols or black-powder weapons, both of which are common. Confusion is most extreme in the five eastern states that made up the former East Germany—home to one-third Germany’s population—where there has been little reporting on gun ownership.
I never said that he wrote it in a way, that pictures Germany wrong, neither did I question his statistics I only said that he didn't make the situation clear enough. I left the part you mentioned out, because it was clearly not enough, since people tend to memorize something like this: + Show Spoiler +
On July 08 2011 17:37 zatic wrote:
In reality, Germany is armed to the teeth. There are about 25 million firearms in civilian hands in Germany. That is about 1 gun for every 3 people. To put these numbers a bit more into
way more often than the part that you talked about. E.g. + Show Spoiler +
On July 08 2011 17:39 Zlasher wrote: Wow, Germany struck me as a country that wouldn't be heavily armed o_O 1 in 3 is a very surprisingly high number to me.
And to emphasize that a little bit more, I never said that he paints a wrong picture of germany, I only said that it's easy to understand his blog wrong, I even WROTE in the last paragraph of my post that I know that he probably didn't mean it that way and that it isn't his fault when people don't read his blog accurately.
Next time try to read a post more careful before you accuse someone of something like that.
On August 01 2011 09:39 Liquid`Drone wrote: haha wow it's hilarious watching the germans get riled out and denying/questioning the valicity of these stats/zatic's motive behind posting, because that is exactly the attitude zatic is describing. even funnier because there are sources posted and the statistics aren't even weird..
This just makes my head spin. If you feel something is wrong or not described the right way, you can point it out. Of course germans are pointing it out, who else would? I have already given my thoughts on page2, so no need to repeat that here in-depth. but just to sum it up again: The blog is called peace and pacifism, goes straight into gun laws (I still don't see the obvious connection here) and then proceeds with the quote that germany is armed to his teeth. As a german, who has never had a gun, never saw a gun besides in a store or on a policeman, never talked about gun-ownership with anyone and has never overheard a conversation about guns, it must be allowed to point that out. As others have said, the sheer number of 25million guns tells you next to nothing besides that there are lots of weapons in this country, which is what I learned through this blog. But still, there are nearly no homocides involving guns, there are nearly no shootings you ever hear of nor do you ever hear of burglars who were shot or shot someone. The exposure to guns is simply not there and it seems they are simply used for sports or hunting in nearly all cases.
Germany has a low homicide rate, but according to Wikipedia 40% of homicides in Germany are firearm related. You are missing Drone's point. If you 'feel' something is wrong or described incorrectly, the burden is on you to provide statistics and data rather than claim the writer has an agenda.
I'm sorry. but I still don't understand why you would partially quote him and form an argument around the partial quote when the rest of the quote invalidates the exact point you are trying to argue.
Because it clearly didn't invalidate my point, I was aware of his attempt to clear it up, recognized it as insufficient, and saw my opinion confirmed. Anyway, I'll accept your excuse, may the gods smile upon you.
I know I am late to this but I edited the blog so that it clearly says it's about gun ownership, and removed the parts about pacifism generally that I feel are connected to the topic.
On November 09 2011 22:07 zatic wrote: I know I am late to this but I edited the blog so that it clearly says it's about gun ownership, and removed the parts about pacifism generally that I feel are connected to the topic.
Don't generalize!!!, Not in a blog!
Two things. Germany has Aldi? Is it like a lil wal-mart style? The places over here look like a grocery/store flea market combo. Interestingly enough, half of those items can be used for murder.
In America, 70 year old men are not safe to sleep on their porch, lest some psychotic 20 year old girl climbing on their lap(trumpets? oh no, not this time) and trying to eat his face. Get off my lawn, without the rifle, is not a statement of worthy caliber.
Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts
My whole family (grandfather, father, uncle, brother, sister, me) are hunters and we all own at least one hunting rifle, so I got a bit of knowledge in this area. There are some differences between sport marksmen and hunters, so most of this will be form the point of a hunting license owner.
First I want to emphasize that fully automatic guns are not allowed to be owned by average people. A hunting or sport shooting license will "only" allow you to get anything up to semi automatic (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/waffg_2002/anlage_2_82.html). Silencers, night vision scopes and laser pointers are also not allowed.
In case of a hunting license it has to be renewed regularly (every 3 years, which costs 180 EUR) and if you do not have a currently valid license, you are only allowed to own the gun but not to use it (i.e. it has to remain in your safe).
Speaking about safes, there are strict laws in place. Safes are classified in several grades and depending on the grade you are allowed to store different stuff in them. Generally they have to be fixed to the ground/wall or very heavy. We personally own a safe that has been fixed to the ground. Weapons and ammunition have to be stored separately from each other. They recently started unannounced checks, where people come to your house and see if you properly store your weapons. Only you and people who own a gun license themselves are allowed to have access to your safe. There has been a case where a hunter lost his license because his wife knew the combination to his safe.
When transporting weapons they can not be "available within a few moments", meaning they have to be either disassembled or in a case. Obviously it cannot be loaded and the ammunition has to be stored separately as well. I think there is a difference in gun law here between sport and hunting, as I as a hunter am allowed to drive/walk through my hunting area with my weapon ready (although you are not allowed to shoot from inside the car), whereas sport marksmen can only use their weapons on designated shooting stands.
You are not allowed to just go into the woods and shoot your weapon. Even when I go to my hunting area, I am only allowed to do 1 test-shot to see if the weapon still shoots correctly, all other shots have to be purposeful (aimed at game).
About self defense: First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc. There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to. Keep in mind that you are not allowed to keep your guns under your pillow or something. Even if somebody broke into my house, I would have to sneak past him to the place where I keep the key, then to the basement to the safe, then I would have to get out the gun and load it....
Hunting itself is more heavily regulated in Germany than in the US. The next few paragraphs are more about hunting than gun ownership, so you might wanna skip the read
If you want to hunt, you have two options: Either have your own hunt or you are invited to somebody else's. You cannot go anywhere you want and start hunting. If you want your own hunt, you either have to own more than 75 hectares (185 acres) of land yourself or you "rent" the right to hunt in a specific area. Most hunters I know (including my family) rent the hunting right (mostly because we don't own that much land). You then have the right but also the responsibility to hunt in that area. For example, you are responsible for any damage done by game to crops, meaning you either actively prevent it (the preferred option...) by putting up fences and shooting enough animals or you have to pay the farmer for his losses. You get restrictions about the number of animals you have to shoot for the more important types of game (roe and red deer for me) - you are not allowed to be significantly under or over that number. There are also restrictions about what you are allowed to shoot when and there can be heavy fines if you mess up - a hunter in a neighboring hunt recently had to pay ~1000 EUR for shooting a stag that was too young for example. If you own less than 75 hectares of land or if you don't want to hunt on your own land (if you don't have a hunting license for example), your land is automatically given up for "hunting rent". Usually, your land and that of others gets put together to larger lots of 200+ hectares and then somebody can rent the hunting rights there. Keep in mind that this is all they get - you can obviously still do whatever you want with your land. Some people that oppose hunting for religious or ethical reasons have tried to get their land excluded from this, but so far they never won a case in court (in fact I think the European Court of Justice has recently denied one such request). If you do not want / cannot get a rent for a hunt (you need to have a hunting license for 5 years to apply for one; also, it is a 9 to 12 years contract), you either need to have friends that invite you over or you can pay to go to hunts in certain areas (there are some state owned forests that regularly organize large hunts for example).
Maybe that cleared up some questions. Most people in Germany don't know about the hunting system for example, so I hope this was interesting to some.
On July 15 2012 05:22 Lorizean wrote: Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts
My whole family (grandfather, father, uncle, brother, sister, me) are hunters and we all own at least one hunting rifle, so I got a bit of knowledge in this area. There are some differences between sport marksmen and hunters, so most of this will be form the point of a hunting license owner.
First I want to emphasize that fully automatic guns are not allowed to be owned by average people. A hunting or sport shooting license will "only" allow you to get anything up to semi automatic (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/waffg_2002/anlage_2_82.html). Silencers, night vision scopes and laser pointers are also not allowed.
In case of a hunting license it has to be renewed regularly (every 3 years, which costs 180 EUR) and if you do not have a currently valid license, you are only allowed to own the gun but not to use it (i.e. it has to remain in your safe).
Speaking about safes, there are strict laws in place. Safes are classified in several grades and depending on the grade you are allowed to store different stuff in them. Generally they have to be fixed to the ground/wall or very heavy. We personally own a safe that has been fixed to the ground. Weapons and ammunition have to be stored separately from each other. They recently started unannounced checks, where people come to your house and see if you properly store your weapons. Only you and people who own a gun license themselves are allowed to have access to your safe. There has been a case where a hunter lost his license because his wife knew the combination to his safe.
When transporting weapons they can not be "available within a few moments", meaning they have to be either disassembled or in a case. Obviously it cannot be loaded and the ammunition has to be stored separately as well. I think there is a difference in gun law here between sport and hunting, as I as a hunter am allowed to drive/walk through my hunting area with my weapon ready (although you are not allowed to shoot from inside the car), whereas sport marksmen can only use their weapons on designated shooting stands.
You are not allowed to just go into the woods and shoot your weapon. Even when I go to my hunting area, I am only allowed to do 1 test-shot to see if the weapon still shoots correctly, all other shots have to be purposeful (aimed at game).
About self defense: First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc. There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to. Keep in mind that you are not allowed to keep your guns under your pillow or something. Even if somebody broke into my house, I would have to sneak past him to the place where I keep the key, then to the basement to the safe, then I would have to get out the gun and load it....
Hunting itself is more heavily regulated in Germany than in the US. The next few paragraphs are more about hunting than gun ownership, so you might wanna skip the read
If you want to hunt, you have two options: Either have your own hunt or you are invited to somebody else's. You cannot go anywhere you want and start hunting. If you want your own hunt, you either have to own more than 75 hectares (185 acres) of land yourself or you "rent" the right to hunt in a specific area. Most hunters I know (including my family) rent the hunting right (mostly because we don't own that much land). You then have the right but also the responsibility to hunt in that area. For example, you are responsible for any damage done by game to crops, meaning you either actively prevent it (the preferred option...) by putting up fences and shooting enough animals or you have to pay the farmer for his losses. You get restrictions about the number of animals you have to shoot for the more important types of game (roe and red deer for me) - you are not allowed to be significantly under or over that number. There are also restrictions about what you are allowed to shoot when and there can be heavy fines if you mess up - a hunter in a neighboring hunt recently had to pay ~1000 EUR for shooting a stag that was too young for example. If you own less than 75 hectares of land or if you don't want to hunt on your own land (if you don't have a hunting license for example), your land is automatically given up for "hunting rent". Usually, your land and that of others gets put together to larger lots of 200+ hectares and then somebody can rent the hunting rights there. Keep in mind that this is all they get - you can obviously still do whatever you want with your land. Some people that oppose hunting for religious or ethical reasons have tried to get their land excluded from this, but so far they never won a case in court (in fact I think the European Court of Justice has recently denied one such request). If you do not want / cannot get a rent for a hunt (you need to have a hunting license for 5 years to apply for one; also, it is a 9 to 12 years contract), you either need to have friends that invite you over or you can pay to go to hunts in certain areas (there are some state owned forests that regularly organize large hunts for example).
Maybe that cleared up some questions. Most people in Germany don't know about the hunting system for example, so I hope this was interesting to some.
Very interesting post and I think it adds a lot of points regarding personal ownership of weapons. Owning a weapon in Germany is overall pretty useless if you aren't a hunter or using them in sports. The laws are pretty strict and I think that's why having a gun in Germany is nothing to talk about because it doesn't help you with anything. It's not used for self-defence and it's not a prestige object.
Also the part about hunting was very interesting for me as I didn't knew anything about hunting in Germany at all.
Thanks for the bump and addition. Here in Florida the only special rule is a 3 day wait period on all handgun purchases to deter crime.
Pretty much all you needs to be 18 and have a valid identification card to prove it and you can technically buy anything up to an assault rifle. Of course the owner of the store/weapon reserves judgement on sales but I could go to Walmart or a local fleamarket and get any kind of firearm (excluding handguns, 3 day wait) I wanted as long as I had the money.
Funny enough you need a hunting license but not a gun license. Although you do need one to carry a concealed weapon. The difference being a loaded gun in your holster on your waist and an unloaded rifle properly secured in your vehicle/case.
I've really enjoyed reading the differences between your laws and mine. I thought the autobahn was okay but truth be told it's the first thing that comes to mind when someone says Germany (then H(itler)istory Channel endless marathons of WW2 (-_-ZzzZzZz
On July 15 2012 05:22 Lorizean wrote: Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts
About self defense: First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc. There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to.
This is another necro, but I believe this is important as it is another misconception common in Germany. In terms of self defense, you can absolutely use deadly force in self defense. And your can rightly defend not just your life, but also your physical well being, property, freedom with deadly force.
The key point is that in Germany you are asked to use the mildest form of force available to you. But if that happens to be a firearm, you can absolutely shoot someone breaking into your home in self defense. Contrary to popular belief there is no requirement for proportionality between the harm that is coming at you and the kind of force you use to defend from it. The law makes a point to avoid "gross disproportionality", meaning that you most likely can't shoot dead an 8yo kid who is stealing berries from your garden in self defense. But in general self defense legislation allows measures way more robust than most people believe.
On July 15 2012 05:22 Lorizean wrote: Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts
About self defense: First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc. There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to.
This is another necro, but I believe this is important as it is another misconception common in Germany. In terms of self defense, you can absolutely use deadly force in self defense. And your can rightly defend not just your life, but also your physical well being, property, freedom with deadly force.
The key point is that in Germany you are asked to use the mildest form of force available to you. But if that happens to be a firearm, you can absolutely shoot someone breaking into your home in self defense. Contrary to popular belief there is no requirement for proportionality between the harm that is coming at you and the kind of force you use to defend from it. The law makes a point to avoid "gross disproportionality", meaning that you most likely can't shoot dead an 8yo kid who is stealing berries from your garden in self defense. But in general self defense legislation allows measures way more robust than most people believe.
As you say above there is no requirement for proportionality between harm coming at you and force you use to defend, are you required to challenge a person for this to be the case or is it in true in all situations?
e.g. you find someone in your house are you required to order them to halt/stop/freeze before you can use lethal force or is the action of them stepping towards you enough to satisfy the law
On July 15 2012 05:22 Lorizean wrote: Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts
About self defense: First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc. There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to.
This is another necro, but I believe this is important as it is another misconception common in Germany. In terms of self defense, you can absolutely use deadly force in self defense. And your can rightly defend not just your life, but also your physical well being, property, freedom with deadly force.
The key point is that in Germany you are asked to use the mildest form of force available to you. But if that happens to be a firearm, you can absolutely shoot someone breaking into your home in self defense. Contrary to popular belief there is no requirement for proportionality between the harm that is coming at you and the kind of force you use to defend from it. The law makes a point to avoid "gross disproportionality", meaning that you most likely can't shoot dead an 8yo kid who is stealing berries from your garden in self defense. But in general self defense legislation allows measures way more robust than most people believe.
As you say above there is no requirement for proportionality between harm coming at you and force you use to defend, are you required to challenge a person for this to be the case or is it in true in all situations?
e.g. you find someone in your house are you required to order them to halt/stop/freeze before you can use lethal force or is the action of them stepping towards you enough to satisfy the law
I am not a lawyer - but from my understanding there is certainly no legal requirement for a warning specifically. So in general no I don't think you are required to confront a burglar before you use force.
On July 15 2012 05:22 Lorizean wrote: Sorry for necroing this thread, but I felt like giving my thoughts
About self defense: First of all, you are not allowed to shoot somebody just for entering your property or even breaking into your house etc. There has to be a clear threat to you or another human being and there has to be a certain comparability. Meaning, you are not allowed to shoot somebody who attacks you with his fists, if he slashes at you with a knife or threatens you with a gun, then you are allowed to use your own. This is how it was explained to me during my hunting license courses, I can look for sources if you need me to.
This is another necro, but I believe this is important as it is another misconception common in Germany. In terms of self defense, you can absolutely use deadly force in self defense. And your can rightly defend not just your life, but also your physical well being, property, freedom with deadly force.
The key point is that in Germany you are asked to use the mildest form of force available to you. But if that happens to be a firearm, you can absolutely shoot someone breaking into your home in self defense. Contrary to popular belief there is no requirement for proportionality between the harm that is coming at you and the kind of force you use to defend from it. The law makes a point to avoid "gross disproportionality", meaning that you most likely can't shoot dead an 8yo kid who is stealing berries from your garden in self defense. But in general self defense legislation allows measures way more robust than most people believe.
As you say above there is no requirement for proportionality between harm coming at you and force you use to defend, are you required to challenge a person for this to be the case or is it in true in all situations?
e.g. you find someone in your house are you required to order them to halt/stop/freeze before you can use lethal force or is the action of them stepping towards you enough to satisfy the law
I am not a lawyer - but from my understanding there is certainly no legal requirement for a warning specifically. So in general no I don't think you are required to confront a burglar before you use force.
That's better than here in Australia were the law prohibits you from using force and allows the burglar to sue you for any injuries that you inflict upon him.
EPT
Why? Read the thread ... nearly everyone who commented on the thread said the same why :o
