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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it  I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do.
I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun.
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On December 15 2012 08:00 Intgrl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:56 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:48 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:
[quote]
What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already.  Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers. 1. Why are you using the words *truth* and *google* in the same sentence? Or even studies? Studies in general can be used to proves anything., you just have to pick your data carefully. 2. Gun control laws DO work everywhere but in the USA. The problem is, that every single US citizen is living in fear. It is taught, it is suggested by the media. To a European, your fear of being shot, being hit by a car, being attacked by terrorist is almost comical in a sad-terrifying way. If the whole society wasn't so dependent on fear, gun control laws could work perfectly. But people in the USA are too terrified of literally everything to. I mean, if you think that if someone breaks into your home, he will want to rape and/or kill you or other family member of yours (more people have actually wrote that in this very topic), then something is fucked-up in the very basic of your mind. Notice how I never linked just 1 study. Read up on all the studies. On all the facts. Are you seriously advocating against the thorough use of google? Come on man, be reasonable. I'm sayinjg read up EVERYTHING you can, there are plenty of resources. So you read a couple of topics of some random "studies" that support your view and then claim that all other western countries are irrelevant in this matter and that gun laws wouldn't work in the states even though they haven't really even tried. Please stop talking about how you are good at using your brain or questioning stuff. You sound like a creationist in a creationist vs. scientist debate.
This is a weird, strange world we live in when the guy telling others to read all the facts on gun control efficacy is labeled the creationist.
The creationist doesn't tell everyone to read all the sources they can get. The creationist doesn't tell people to look up as much as they can from as many places as they can to find the facts on it.
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On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun.
An open mind to what? Fallacy?
There are not 2 sides to this coin. There's the truth, and there's the fallacy.
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On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same.
well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun
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On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours.
Could you stop preaching as the internet is full of "facts" that disagree with every possible statement ever made.
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On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun.
LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun."
Hypocrite much?
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On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:42 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:07 Nagano wrote:(1) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01064462?LI=truehttp://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdfMyth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crimeFact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.
Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more
Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77
68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998
Point 3 is clearly false. As complete gun ban will necessarily have effect on prevalence of guns. Are they going to magically appear ? You don't understand the logistics of implementing a complete gun ban. Are guns going to magically DISappear?
Why should they, their lifespan is not infinite.
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On December 15 2012 07:54 Synk wrote:
You bring a gun to a fight, people get shot. You bring a bat to a fight, someone gets knocked out.
I think this is wrong. If you gave me a bat and a gun for a weapon in a fight, I'd be less likely to kill someone with the gun.
One swing from the bat would likely kill the average person.
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On December 15 2012 07:55 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:51 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:31 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:24 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listwhile there is a correlation there, it's rather weak. I don't see anything weak about it. These are all the countries mentioned in the thread that have more stricter forms of gun regulation. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 Keep in mind we're comparing countries with gun regulation versus well, the US. There's nothing weak about the correlations. We're debating facts. Switzerland - 0.77 Gun Ownership - 45.7/100k Finland - 0.45 Gun Ownership - 45.3/100k Trinidad and Tobago - 27.31 Gun Ownership - 1.6/100k Ecuador - 12.73 Gun Ownership - 1.3/100k While I would agree that there is somewhat of a correlation, it is by no means a strong one. Swizerland and Finland support the point of gun control and it's effects on reduced gun violence. For the other 2 countries, it's hard to compare. Ecuador - GDP - $8,500 (2011 est.) per capita. CIA Factbook. Trinidad and Tobago - GDP per capita is at $20,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Trinidad_and_TobagoBut a quick google search shows they have a lot of issues with gang violence, and issues with murders to begin with. Hell it's gotten so bad that the government has (or is trying to) banned police publication of murder stats saying it's only making it worse. It's why I tried to keep comparisons with western(ized) countries. That's not what was posted though. "stronger gun country policies have less deaths" This is not true. If you narrow it down to select countries only, maybe. But even among the US states that's completely false. Usually the most strict rules are the states where the most gun violence occurs. I think half of the top 10 Gun ownership states have half of the top 10 lowest gun violence rates. Within the USA itself, it's pretty much the opposite.
And again I'll point out. The US has never had a federal level regulation/ban on firearms that was enforced. Different states have different laws. State level bans and regulation accomplish nothing. What can be obtained in one state, can be transported to another.
That's why you have to compare the US with another country that actually has stricter gun regulation. Across state differences means nothing when the country marketplace has already been oversaturated with guns.
There's still no rebuttal to any of my points. You just said that the statistics can be used to prove anything? Do I really have to pull out a Homer Simpson quote?
I gave you a rebuttal on the situation of Trinidad and Tobago, and Ecuador why they do not apply. I've used westernized countries to compare with the US.
Sweden, Canada, UK.
As I've said before. These debates bring out both extremes. There's no point in trying to change the viewpoint of either side. That being said, I'm done.
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On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much?
Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder.
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On December 15 2012 08:05 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Could you stop preaching as the internet is full of "facts" that disagree with every possible statement ever made.
I've kept repeating myself that you find reputable sources. There are university studies on this subject, try google scholar. There are US government studies on gun control efficacy. I'm not pointing you to some weird area 52, Roswell conspiracy theorist websites.
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On December 15 2012 08:06 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:07 Nagano wrote:(1) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01064462?LI=truehttp://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdfMyth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crimeFact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.
Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more
Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77
68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998
Point 3 is clearly false. As complete gun ban will necessarily have effect on prevalence of guns. Are they going to magically appear ? You don't understand the logistics of implementing a complete gun ban. Are guns going to magically DISappear? Why should they, their lifespan is not infinite.
It's also not an incredibly tiny number. Example, M2 machine guns (granted a stellar piece of engineering) that have been in service in the military for decades, with only small, individual parts replacements. That's with incredibly heavier use than civilian owned guns.
A decent quality one will last for a LONG time with basic maintenance, especially if you don't put thousands of rounds through it a year.
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On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:
[quote]
US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today.
The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true.
Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work.
Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun
You have to have a reason, certified and acceptable by you, to purchase something now?
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On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder.
Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell.
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On December 15 2012 08:08 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it.
Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun You have to have a reason, certified and acceptable by you, to purchase something now?
no im just asking you personally what was your reason to buy a gun?
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On December 15 2012 08:06 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:54 Synk wrote:
You bring a gun to a fight, people get shot. You bring a bat to a fight, someone gets knocked out. I think this is wrong. If you gave me a bat and a gun for a weapon in a fight, I'd be less likely to kill someone with the gun. One swing from the bat would likely kill the average person.
No it wouldn't.
If you could hit someone to death with 1 swing from a baseball bat, you would already be under mental treatment.
Only those who are mentally unstable will try to deal a lethal blow to another living person.
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Apparently reality has a gun-laws-don't-work bias.
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On December 15 2012 08:10 flexgd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:08 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:
[quote]
You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun You have to have a reason, certified and acceptable by you, to purchase something now? no im just asking you personally what was your reason to buy a gun?
And you're the one saying that other people bring no relevance to the discussion. That's rich.
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On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:
[quote]
US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today.
The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true.
Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work.
Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun
i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm.
home safety is the least of my concern.
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On December 15 2012 08:03 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:38 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:31 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:24 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listwhile there is a correlation there, it's rather weak. I don't see anything weak about it. These are all the countries mentioned in the thread that have more stricter forms of gun regulation. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 Keep in mind we're comparing countries with gun regulation versus well, the US. There's nothing weak about the correlations. We're debating facts. Switzerland - 0.77 Gun Ownership - 45.7/100k Finland - 0.45 Gun Ownership - 45.3/100k Trinidad and Tobago - 27.31 Gun Ownership - 1.6/100k Ecuador - 12.73 Gun Ownership - 1.3/100k While I would agree that there is somewhat of a correlation, it is by no means a strong one. While I agree with you that the correlation is very weak and does not prove causation, his examples were better as they were at least trying to control for economic wealth and other factors that might influence the actual rates.
Examples of what, exactly? He's trying to prove something that wasn't being questioned. The statement was whether strict controls on gun ownership lowered gun crime rates. My statement was simply "the correlation for such is low." Now he's trying to change it to only include "very similar, first-world, Westernized countries."
And even if it were, he's trying to prove his hypothesis with data that can't prove it. With a sample size far too small to draw a definite conclusion.
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EPT
