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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 15 2012 07:37 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:28 ArmOfDeath wrote:On December 15 2012 07:11 Zandar wrote:
ArmOfDeath,
Clearly you are passionate about this subject and thanks for keeping replying.
But please could you tell me why the USA has more deaths by schoolshootings than all other countries in the world COMBINED.
I think it's the gun laws, many people do.
You don't think so. But how do you explain this then I wonder. This is very simple. Guns are banned on school grounds. Guns are also banned in government offices, and in certain places on military bases. If you know that there is a ban on guns, meaning that no one OTHER than a person who is going to break that law is going to have no gun to protect themselves, then your chances of dying while trying to perpetrate the crime are going to be 0. Do the majority of criminals want to die? Or do they want to do what they are going to and then get away? Alive? Where do you have the highest chance of being successful at this? Places where there are bans on bringing a gun. Most of the time, criminals linger and try to keep killing, and that means that the police will show up and then they're screwed. If you went in and just shot a couple people and disappeared, then they would have an extremely high chance of getting away alive. Let's go back to the Dark Knight movie shooting. The shooter in that case had 7 theaters that he could've chosen to go to and do his crime, all withing the same distance as the one he chose. Out of those 7 theaters, only one of them had a total ban on guns. Guess which theater that was? Now, you also have to factor in, that of any of the countries that you use in your statistics like Sweden or Denmark, or any of the other extremely small population countries that you cite, the reason that you don't see crime numbers like you do in the US is because you have (in most of these cases) less than 10% of the population that the US does. Higher population means that you will have more instances of specific violence, and a higher chance that you'll have a larger group of mentally disturbed people that are going to do those crimes. I bet the US also has the highest rate of vehicular manslaughter, drug selling, rape, and identity theft. But that is just what's to be expected with a country with as many freedoms as the US and as high of a population. Europe has an enormous amount of diversity too. Even within countries. I don't think the USA and Europe are that different in that matter. Also, the schoolshooting wiki lists ALL known shootings, in ALL countries. So also much bigger countries than the USA like China and India. Still the USA has more deaths by shooting than all countries combined. Show nested quote +I bet the US also has the highest rate of vehicular manslaughter, drug selling, rape, and identity theft I bet not.
I was hoping you would bring up China/India in this. Yes, they have a much larger population than the US does. They also have ~30% (China) and ~68% (India) of their total populations living in poverty (international poverty opposed to the countries individual poverty line. If we put the US in the international poverty line, then it has 0% of its population there). Which would be more important to you in this situation, trying to feed yourself/your family, or buying a gun that you can't afford? Also, because no one actually keeps statistics on this, I would bet my life that both China and India have a significantly higher homicide rate with knives than the US does. Again, this comes back to my original point. If a criminal wants to hurt other people, he will find a way, with, or without guns.
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On December 15 2012 07:43 flexgd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 ArmOfDeath wrote:
[quote]
You have a severe lack of reading comprehension. Here, I'll quote to you what I said: "If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer." It's obvious that without guns there would be less killing in the same amount of time. But here is where you fail. If there are no guns, then people will find another way. Getting rid of or making it near impossible to get guns won't stop these situations from happening. I'm not saying don't try to make it stop, but that no matter what you do it will always happen, and by people who don't follow laws. In the end, you hurt law abiding citizens, not the criminals who don't follow the laws.
And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught. I give up on people like you lol What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already.  Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers. why dont you state these facts then if you are obviously desperately trying to make a point here. and with facts i mean empirical evidence and not "its true because i know it is true"
I have, top of page 192. I was also quoted on the first post of this thread. I COULD post hundreds of articles for you. Do I want to do that? Not really. Especially when you can google them yourself. Try "gun control efficacy" "gun control laws effective" "gun control rights" "gun crime efficacy" "gun crime correlation to number of guns"
You have a brain, use it. The truth isn't hard to find when it's everywhere. If I were telling you something untrue, I would try to prevent you from using everything you can to find information on it.
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On December 15 2012 07:05 Hypemeup wrote:
I cant find much on swedens rates either, but the only big firearms related event I can remember happening this year was the police firing at some robbers and I dont think that ended up getting anyone killed. There are probably afew more but honestly most murders here are done with knives or just regular hand-to-hand. We have certainly not had that many big firearms related crimes.
Not entirely true. According to Brå (rough translation would be "Coucil for deterring crime") there were 81 cases of homicide or manslaughter in 2011. 20% of those cases have been with use of a firearm. 81 deaths per year is considered low compared to 91 cases in 2010 but not below average for the last few decades or so. 20% of 81 is 16 (assuming a person cannot be 20% murdered. So on average, 15-20 people are murdered every year in sweden by use of firearms.
http://www.bra.se/bra/brott--statistik/mord-och-drap.html
Compared to the US (according to http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states):
Since for some reason, complete statistics are only shown for 2009, I will use the 2010 numbers from bra.se.
In 2009 the values for the US are:
Deaths from homicides:15241
That is 4.96 per 100k people, compared to 0.953 per 100k in sweden. A rate that is 5.2 times higher.
Homicides with firearms: 9146.
That is 65% of the total number and thus 2.98 murders with firearms per 100k. Compared to 0.19 per 100k in sweden. That is 15.68 times more in the US.
So while the homicide base rate is 500% higher in the US, the homicide rates with a firearm is 1560% higher, meaning that firearms are more than three times as common in homicides in the US than in Sweden.
Also note that the actual numbers fluctuate from year to year rather much, but not enough to significantly influence the values above.
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On December 15 2012 07:38 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:31 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:24 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listwhile there is a correlation there, it's rather weak. I don't see anything weak about it. These are all the countries mentioned in the thread that have more stricter forms of gun regulation. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 Keep in mind we're comparing countries with gun regulation versus well, the US. There's nothing weak about the correlations. We're debating facts. Switzerland - 0.77 Gun Ownership - 45.7/100k Finland - 0.45 Gun Ownership - 45.3/100k Trinidad and Tobago - 27.31 Gun Ownership - 1.6/100k Ecuador - 12.73 Gun Ownership - 1.3/100k While I would agree that there is somewhat of a correlation, it is by no means a strong one.
Swizerland and Finland support the point of gun control and it's effects on reduced gun violence.
For the other 2 countries, it's hard to compare.
Ecuador - GDP - $8,500 (2011 est.) per capita.
CIA Factbook.
Trinidad and Tobago - GDP per capita is at $20,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Trinidad_and_Tobago
But a quick google search shows they have a lot of issues with gang violence, and issues with murders to begin with.
Hell it's gotten so bad that the government has (or is trying to) banned police publication of murder stats saying it's only making it worse.
It's why I tried to keep comparisons with western(ized) countries.
On December 15 2012 07:44 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:41 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. I'd like to see such studies. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listThose countries listed above have stricter gun control laws. The US doesn't. There has never been a time in the US where guns were federally banned or even regulated severely. Therefore you have to compare it with countries that have gun control. Inter-state comparisons do nothing. You are picking data that supports your conclusion and ignoring the data that doesn't. How can you expect someone to take you seriously?
You did exactly the same thing. I picked countries with strict gun laws, and ones that were mentioned in this thread.
You picked Ecuador and Trinidad. Need I say more?
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On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read.
no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it?
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if people take interest in gun control, do read up on it instead of talking here and instead of "ban guns and there will be no gun kills", since that clearly isn't the case.
solving poverty will do more good than getting rid of guns.
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On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 ArmOfDeath wrote:On December 15 2012 06:59 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:54 ArmOfDeath wrote:On December 15 2012 06:48 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:42 ArmOfDeath wrote:
I swear it's like talking to children. It doesn't matter if you get rid of guns or not. If there were no guns in the world then criminals would use other means: rocks, sticks, fists, it doesn't matter. They are criminals and they break the law, it's what they do. Unless you're going to police the world and make it so that no one ever does anything wrong, then it's going to be impossible to ever stop these kinds of things. Have any of you watched Minority Report lately? The road to hell is paved with best intentions. If the guy that shot up the school didn't have guns, he would've used/done something else. It's just that simple. It doesn't matter if the US has more school related shootings than the rest of the world, it doesn't matter if the US has the highest amount of gun related violence than the rest of the world. It doesn't matter if the US is the most evil place in the world filled will all the most evil people in the world. Regulation of anything won't stop BAD PEOPLE from doing BAD THINGS. It is stupid to even talk about it. Every time something bad happens to someone, it's a crying shame, and it deeply saddens me, but do I sit in a corner crying and trying to ban everything that could be potentially dangerous? Why are household chemicals not banned? When combined they can make deadly gasses. How about banning cars because people can get drunk and run someone over? How about banning knives because they can hurt people if in the hands of someone mentally unstable or who wants to hurt other people...the list goes on and on. Do you not see how futile it is? I'm not saying it's the best solution, but when someone is going to do a harmful act, the only MAJOR deterrence to them not doing it is the possibility of them dying. Most criminals don't want to die, but there are some, that's why you have a "suicide by cop" statistic. So how do you stop people determined with hurting others who want to die themselves? Because whether you regulate harder or more, or try anything, where there's a will there's a way. Do you want to take away everyone's freedoms in the vain hope that maybe no one will ever get hurt again? It doesnt matter? i'm sorry but i never really understood the logic of this arguement. Would they be able to kill as many people as they do with "rocks, sticks, fists" as you say? no probaly not. And if you cant understand that then i will not bother replying to posts like this anymore Funny coming from a guy that accuses other people of being children. Your logic doesn't make sense, it's the logic of children. If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer. Would that stop people from trying to go on killing sprees though? Doubtful. What's the point that you're trying to make? That without guns in these types of situations less people would die? That's pretty obvious, but what if the criminal decided to take household chemicals and make mustard gas? Then a lot more people would've died. I fail to see your point, if you're even making one. You say make it harder to get guns. I say sure, why not. Again, watch Minority Report. What does that do in the end? Nothing, because most of these cases are perpetrated by people AFTER they've got their gun legally. Do we need to invent a crystal ball to look into the possible future(s) and see if they're going to go banana's? How would that help? Got to "Minority Report" then lol'd. Yes my point is that less people would die, and if you fail to see that point then there is no help for you, like i said in my previous post, i will stop replying if you cant understand it, its like talking to a wall with you. You have a severe lack of reading comprehension. Here, I'll quote to you what I said: "If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer." It's obvious that without guns there would be less killing in the same amount of time. But here is where you fail. If there are no guns, then people will find another way. Getting rid of or making it near impossible to get guns won't stop these situations from happening. I'm not saying don't try to make it stop, but that no matter what you do it will always happen, and by people who don't follow laws. In the end, you hurt law abiding citizens, not the criminals who don't follow the laws. And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught. I give up on people like you lol What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html
I am all for banning tobacco. As for cars, analogy does not apply as they also have legitimate use that is quite irreplacable in modern society. Guns too have in hunting, so lets allow hunting rifles and that is all.
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Source
School Stabbings Focus Attention On China's Mental Health Care System
Article bringing up a stabbing at a Chinese school today, a man stabbed a faculty member and 22 students at the school, all are alive and will recover.
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The fact people debate this is hilarious. You bring a gun to a fight, people get shot. You bring a bat to a fight, someone gets knocked out. See the difference? Adding guns to any violent situation, only makes that violence worse. You think having a gun will save you, but all it will do is make the would be situation go from physical confrontation, to a lethal one immediately. You better hope you come out on top?
I just can't understand people's logic when it comes to guns in the USA, if you pull a gun on me in a fight it immediately changes from " I need to beat this guy up " to " I have to kill him before he kills me". While there are also mountains of empirical evidence to back this up, it's just common sense. Put yourself in a violent situation .. think about how it is handled( minus guns). Now add guns to the same situation and count the bodies ( hint it *always* gets worse ).
I'll take the chance that one random, defective human-being every 10 years manages to beat the gun control laws and go on a shooting spree, and then blow his brains out over literally 100% of these nut jobs being almost just handed the weapons so they can go carry it out with an amazing rate of success.
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On December 15 2012 07:51 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:38 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:31 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:24 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listwhile there is a correlation there, it's rather weak. I don't see anything weak about it. These are all the countries mentioned in the thread that have more stricter forms of gun regulation. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 Keep in mind we're comparing countries with gun regulation versus well, the US. There's nothing weak about the correlations. We're debating facts. Switzerland - 0.77 Gun Ownership - 45.7/100k Finland - 0.45 Gun Ownership - 45.3/100k Trinidad and Tobago - 27.31 Gun Ownership - 1.6/100k Ecuador - 12.73 Gun Ownership - 1.3/100k While I would agree that there is somewhat of a correlation, it is by no means a strong one. Swizerland and Finland support the point of gun control and it's effects on reduced gun violence. For the other 2 countries, it's hard to compare. Ecuador - GDP - $8,500 (2011 est.) per capita. CIA Factbook. Trinidad and Tobago - GDP per capita is at $20,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Trinidad_and_TobagoBut a quick google search shows they have a lot of issues with gang violence, and issues with murders to begin with. Hell it's gotten so bad that the government has (or is trying to) banned police publication of murder stats saying it's only making it worse. It's why I tried to keep comparisons with western(ized) countries.
That's not what was posted though.
"stronger gun country policies have less deaths"
This is not true. If you narrow it down to select countries only, maybe. but even then it's still a weaker correlation. Less guns on the streets != less gun violence as a rule. Among the US states that's completely false. Usually the most strict rules are the states where the most gun violence occurs. I think half of the top 10 Gun ownership states have half of the top 10 lowest gun violence rates. Within the USA itself, it's pretty much the opposite of the statement made.
The USA isn't the same as Europe. EU has a 27% higher population density. The least dense European country, Finland, is THREE TIMES denser than some US states. It's not the same in it's effect.
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On December 15 2012 07:48 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 ArmOfDeath wrote:
[quote]
You have a severe lack of reading comprehension. Here, I'll quote to you what I said: "If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer." It's obvious that without guns there would be less killing in the same amount of time. But here is where you fail. If there are no guns, then people will find another way. Getting rid of or making it near impossible to get guns won't stop these situations from happening. I'm not saying don't try to make it stop, but that no matter what you do it will always happen, and by people who don't follow laws. In the end, you hurt law abiding citizens, not the criminals who don't follow the laws.
And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught. I give up on people like you lol What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already. Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers. 1. Why are you using the words *truth* and *google* in the same sentence? Or even studies? Studies in general can be used to proves anything., you just have to pick your data carefully. 2. Gun control laws DO work everywhere but in the USA. The problem is, that every single US citizen is living in fear. It is taught, it is suggested by the media. To a European, your fear of being shot, being hit by a car, being attacked by terrorist is almost comical in a sad-terrifying way. If the whole society wasn't so dependent on fear, gun control laws could work perfectly. But people in the USA are too terrified of literally everything to. I mean, if you think that if someone breaks into your home, he will want to rape and/or kill you or other family member of yours (more people have actually wrote that in this very topic), then something is fucked-up in the very basic of your mind.
Notice how I never linked just 1 study. Read up on all the studies. On all the facts. Are you seriously advocating against the thorough use of google? Come on man, be reasonable. I'm sayinjg read up EVERYTHING you can, there are plenty of resources.
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On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children!
Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns.
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On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear.
Your position looks awfully weak when you continuously reference facts, studies, and research that you cannot or will not cite.
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On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns.
The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it 
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On December 15 2012 07:54 Synk wrote:
The fact people debate this is hilarious. You bring a gun to a fight, people get shot. You bring a bat to a fight, someone gets knocked out. See the difference? Adding guns to any violent situation, only makes that violence worse. You think having a gun will save you, but all it will do is make the would be situation go from physical confrontation, to a lethal one immediately. You better hope you come out on top?
I just can't understand people's logic when it comes to guns in the USA, if you pull a gun on me in a fight it immediately changes from " I need to beat this guy up " to " I have to kill him before he kills me". While there are also mountains of empirical evidence to back this up, it's just common sense. Put yourself in a violent situation .. think about how it is handled( minus guns). Now add guns to the same situation and count the bodies ( hint it *always* gets worse ).
I'll take the chance that one random, defective human-being every 10 years manages to beat the gun control laws and go on a shooting spree, and then blow his brains out over literally 100% of these nut jobs being almost just handed the weapons so they can go carry it out with an amazing rate of success.
Many of the places in the US with the highest amount of gun control regulation (New York City and Washington DC are perfect examples) actually have some of the highest rates of gun violence, and many places with concealed carry laws have some of the lowest rates.
I'm not posing a solution but these facts cannot be ignored.
http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
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On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it?
You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same.
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On December 15 2012 07:56 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:48 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught.
I give up on people like you lol
What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already. Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers. 1. Why are you using the words *truth* and *google* in the same sentence? Or even studies? Studies in general can be used to proves anything., you just have to pick your data carefully. 2. Gun control laws DO work everywhere but in the USA. The problem is, that every single US citizen is living in fear. It is taught, it is suggested by the media. To a European, your fear of being shot, being hit by a car, being attacked by terrorist is almost comical in a sad-terrifying way. If the whole society wasn't so dependent on fear, gun control laws could work perfectly. But people in the USA are too terrified of literally everything to. I mean, if you think that if someone breaks into your home, he will want to rape and/or kill you or other family member of yours (more people have actually wrote that in this very topic), then something is fucked-up in the very basic of your mind. Notice how I never linked just 1 study. Read up on all the studies. On all the facts. Are you seriously advocating against the thorough use of google? Come on man, be reasonable. I'm sayinjg read up EVERYTHING you can, there are plenty of resources.
So you read a couple of topics of some random "studies" that support your view and then claim that all other western countries are irrelevant in this matter and that gun laws wouldn't work in the states even though they haven't really even tried. Please stop talking about how you are good at using your brain or questioning stuff. You sound like a creationist in a creationist vs. scientist debate.
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On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it
I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do.
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On December 15 2012 07:56 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:48 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught.
I give up on people like you lol
What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already. Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers. 1. Why are you using the words *truth* and *google* in the same sentence? Or even studies? Studies in general can be used to proves anything., you just have to pick your data carefully. 2. Gun control laws DO work everywhere but in the USA. The problem is, that every single US citizen is living in fear. It is taught, it is suggested by the media. To a European, your fear of being shot, being hit by a car, being attacked by terrorist is almost comical in a sad-terrifying way. If the whole society wasn't so dependent on fear, gun control laws could work perfectly. But people in the USA are too terrified of literally everything to. I mean, if you think that if someone breaks into your home, he will want to rape and/or kill you or other family member of yours (more people have actually wrote that in this very topic), then something is fucked-up in the very basic of your mind. Notice how I never linked just 1 study. Read up on all the studies. On all the facts. Are you seriously advocating against the thorough use of google? Come on man, be reasonable. I'm sayinjg read up EVERYTHING you can, there are plenty of resources.
I know why didn't you link a single study. Because there is not a single study of passable quality and bias which proves your point. If it wasn't the case, you would have linked at least one.
This very topic proves that gun control works since the complaints are almost exclusively coming from US-citizens.
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On December 15 2012 07:38 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:31 Eps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:24 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listwhile there is a correlation there, it's rather weak. I don't see anything weak about it. These are all the countries mentioned in the thread that have more stricter forms of gun regulation. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 Keep in mind we're comparing countries with gun regulation versus well, the US. There's nothing weak about the correlations. We're debating facts. Switzerland - 0.77 Gun Ownership - 45.7/100k Finland - 0.45 Gun Ownership - 45.3/100k Trinidad and Tobago - 27.31 Gun Ownership - 1.6/100k Ecuador - 12.73 Gun Ownership - 1.3/100k While I would agree that there is somewhat of a correlation, it is by no means a strong one.
While I agree with you that the correlation is very weak and does not prove causation, his examples were better as they were at least trying to control for economic wealth and other factors that might influence the actual rates.
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EPT
