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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 15 2012 08:09 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it  I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder. Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell.
If you read through my posts i have actualy said i understood americans wanting to have guns for self defence. What you and him are saying is just plain blind stupidity though.
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On December 15 2012 08:05 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. An open mind to what? Fallacy? There are not 2 sides to this coin. There's the truth, and there's the fallacy.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
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On December 15 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it.
Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm. home safety is the least of my concern.
He's trying really hard to keep his argument afloat. Facts always have a way of becoming obstacles.
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On December 15 2012 08:11 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:09 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder. Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell. If you read through my posts i have actualy said i understood americans wanting to have guns for self defence. What you and him are saying is just plain blind stupidity though.
He says to keep an open mind while stereotyping the person he doesn't know over the internet. We observed it and now we're plain blind and stupid. Namecalling, this debate is getting rather dull.
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On December 15 2012 08:11 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:05 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. An open mind to what? Fallacy? There are not 2 sides to this coin. There's the truth, and there's the fallacy. Only a Sith deals in absolutes
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On December 15 2012 08:13 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:11 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:09 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:21 Nagano wrote:
Guess what kills more children per year than firearms? Swimming pools.
Someone phone a politician and have them ban the people's swimming pools! Think of the children! Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder. Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell. If you read through my posts i have actualy said i understood americans wanting to have guns for self defence. What you and him are saying is just plain blind stupidity though. He says to keep an open mind while stereotyping the person he doesn't know over the internet. We observed it and now we're plain blind and stupid. Namecalling, this debate is getting rather dull.
Namecalling? im not directing them to you as i dont actualy know you, im directing them to your posts, its a little diffrent.
The debate got dull a long time ago.
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On December 15 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it.
Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm. home safety is the least of my concern.
And this is when the authority should decide if you can be a responsible gun owner, or not. With tests and stuff.
Because the safety of people is more important then your enthusiasm.
This is how it should be working.
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On December 15 2012 08:10 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:06 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:54 Synk wrote:
You bring a gun to a fight, people get shot. You bring a bat to a fight, someone gets knocked out. I think this is wrong. If you gave me a bat and a gun for a weapon in a fight, I'd be less likely to kill someone with the gun. One swing from the bat would likely kill the average person. No it wouldn't. If you could hit someone to death with 1 swing from a baseball bat, you would already be under mental treatment. Only those who are mentally unstable will try to deal a lethal blow to another living person.
I honestly don't think I'd be able to fend off an attacker with a baseball bat without dealing a blow that would kill them. They have to be within an arms reach for me to hit them, at which point I can't risk it--I'd swing as hard as I could. To stop them, I'd probably have to hit them in the torso or head. I have no doubt I'd cause some very serious internal bleeding with one blow.
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On December 15 2012 08:15 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:13 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:11 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:09 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:
[quote]
Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder. Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell. If you read through my posts i have actualy said i understood americans wanting to have guns for self defence. What you and him are saying is just plain blind stupidity though. He says to keep an open mind while stereotyping the person he doesn't know over the internet. We observed it and now we're plain blind and stupid. Namecalling, this debate is getting rather dull. Namecalling? im not directing them to you as i dont actualy know you, im directing them to your posts, its a little diffrent. The debate got dull a long time ago.
What about my posts is plain blind stupid? The part that tells you to google everything you can on the subject before talking? If information is plain blind and stupid to you, then there's nothing else we can discuss.
Keep believing what you wanna believe while the rest of us work off reality.
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On December 15 2012 08:15 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:
[quote]
You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm. home safety is the least of my concern. And this is when the authority should decide if you can be a responsible gun owner, or not. With tests and stuff. Because the safety of people is more important then your enthusiasm. This is how it should be working.
"The authority." Oh dear. The implications of what you just said boggle my mind.
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On December 15 2012 08:12 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:
[quote]
You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm. home safety is the least of my concern. He's trying really hard to keep his argument afloat. Facts always have a way of becoming obstacles.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
doesnt say anything about carrying guns as a hobby. so do you think the u.s. needs "a well regulated militia to secure the free state" nowadays?
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On December 15 2012 08:07 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:05 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Could you stop preaching as the internet is full of "facts" that disagree with every possible statement ever made. I've kept repeating myself that you find reputable sources. There are university studies on this subject, try google scholar. There are US government studies on gun control efficacy. I'm not pointing you to some weird area 52, Roswell conspiracy theorist websites.
I know, but it is a bad argument to tell someone to search for papers and studies in such an ambiguous and conflicted topic. Just post ones you consider supporting your argument. Anyway, I read a lot of them in the past and the only thing they prove is that gun controls that were implemented, all of them limited in area and time, failed or did not have positive results in the timespan allotted by the studies. Considering how that does not really say much about harsher gun control measures or long term effects I find your absolute statements doubtful.
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On December 15 2012 07:49 ArmOfDeath wrote:Again, this comes back to my original point. If a criminal wants to hurt other people, he will find a way, with, or without guns.
Your argument relies on the premise that there are two types of people. A) People who are criminals that will commit murder regardless of whether they have weapons or not and B) People who are not criminals and will not commit murder regardless of whether they have weapons or not.
At any point, there is a chance someone from B becomes a part of A instead. Lets call this chance the X factor. What do you think is more reasonable, that the X factor is increased or decreased because of gun ownership? How about criminals who stop being criminals?
Killing someone with a pistol is easy, killing someone with a shovel takes a lot more effort, not to mention how much more time you have to change your mind mid way. That doesn't mean killing someone with a shovel isn't possible. Just not "as" possible.
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On December 15 2012 08:16 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:15 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:13 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:11 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:09 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:[quote] The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder. Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell. If you read through my posts i have actualy said i understood americans wanting to have guns for self defence. What you and him are saying is just plain blind stupidity though. He says to keep an open mind while stereotyping the person he doesn't know over the internet. We observed it and now we're plain blind and stupid. Namecalling, this debate is getting rather dull. Namecalling? im not directing them to you as i dont actualy know you, im directing them to your posts, its a little diffrent. The debate got dull a long time ago. What about my posts is plain blind stupid? The part that tells you to google everything you can on the subject before talking? If information is plain blind and stupid to you, then there's nothing else we can discuss. Keep believing what you wanna believe while the rest of us work off reality.
Thats what i am saying though, your perception of reality is wrong, im not insulting you im just saying that you are wrong, nothing wrong with that, and there has been multiple people saying that you are wrong too.
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On December 15 2012 08:17 flexgd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:12 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
What do i have to fear? lol.
And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm. home safety is the least of my concern. He's trying really hard to keep his argument afloat. Facts always have a way of becoming obstacles. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." doesnt say anything about carrying guns as a hobby. so do you think the u.s. needs "a well regulated militia to secure the free state" nowadays?
if you read it that way, then the clause would protect military grade weapons. that's why nobody objects about it saying anything about it as a hobby.
I think a way to think about it is this: Can you name a single military in the world that would even DARE to try and occupy Detroit, MI? Or LA? The guerrilla warfare that would go down would cripple them in days. THAT is why the amendment was originally introduced, and why it is still relevant today, albeit to a lesser extent.
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On December 15 2012 08:08 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:06 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:07 Nagano wrote:(1) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01064462?LI=truehttp://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdfMyth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crimeFact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.
Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more
Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77
68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998
Point 3 is clearly false. As complete gun ban will necessarily have effect on prevalence of guns. Are they going to magically appear ? You don't understand the logistics of implementing a complete gun ban. Are guns going to magically DISappear? Why should they, their lifespan is not infinite. It's also not an incredibly tiny number. Example, M2 machine guns (granted a stellar piece of engineering) that have been in service in the military for decades, with only small, individual parts replacements. That's with incredibly heavier use than civilian owned guns. A decent quality one will last for a LONG time with basic maintenance, especially if you don't put thousands of rounds through it a year.
I just wanted to avoid complicating the argument since long time is not an issue for my point, but you can also employ other measures to keep the time down.
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On December 15 2012 08:17 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:07 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Could you stop preaching as the internet is full of "facts" that disagree with every possible statement ever made. I've kept repeating myself that you find reputable sources. There are university studies on this subject, try google scholar. There are US government studies on gun control efficacy. I'm not pointing you to some weird area 52, Roswell conspiracy theorist websites. I know, but it is a bad argument to tell someone to search for papers and studies in such an ambiguous and conflicted topic. Just post ones you consider supporting your argument. Anyway, I read a lot of them in the past and the only thing they prove is that gun controls that were implemented, all of them limited in area and time, failed or did not have positive results in the timespan allotted by the studies. Considering how that does not really say much about harsher gun control measures or long term effects I find your absolute statements doubtful.
Gun ownership is at an all time high. Violence at an all time low. Through all record in the US. I'd say that's a good enough correlation relevant to the point you brought up about time.
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On December 15 2012 08:15 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:13 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:11 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:09 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 08:07 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 08:02 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:57 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:56 mcc wrote:
[quote]
Do you even know what logic is ? Swimming pools have also other purpose than killing children. One that is beneficial to society. Guns, not really, definitely not handguns. The guy is as stubborn as they come mate, no matter how wrong he is he just keeps on digging his hole deeper. Best just let him get on with it I wouldn't call it stubborn. I would prefer to look at it as I'm trying to just let you know the facts. If you came across a flat-earther, or someone who didn't believe in climate change, or evolution, I'm sure you would feel as strongly about getting the facts across as I do. I understand that, but its also a good idea to keep an open mind, espically because you're biased as you are american + own a gun. LOL. "Keep an open mind." "Because you're biased as you are American + own a gun." Hypocrite much? Oh its you again, and yet again you bring nothing to the disscussion. Try harder. Actually, he pointed out something completely relevant. The irony in a nutshell. If you read through my posts i have actualy said i understood americans wanting to have guns for self defence. What you and him are saying is just plain blind stupidity though. He says to keep an open mind while stereotyping the person he doesn't know over the internet. We observed it and now we're plain blind and stupid. Namecalling, this debate is getting rather dull. Namecalling? im not directing them to you as i dont actualy know you, im directing them to your posts, its a little diffrent. The debate got dull a long time ago.
i dont think most gun enthusiast see guns as a weapon to kill a person, rather more of a hobby. i've met a lot of gun owners, none of them felt threatening, they're regular people like anyone else. its simply a hobby for majority of people, its like archery or any other form of weapon turned sport/hobby.
guns are easily the most dangerous weapon for its ease of use and availability, but that really depends on who is using it. like someone else said, they can just drive their car on a busy sidewalk, steal a bus full of children, etc. guns are only a tool and if it isnt guns, there will be other ways.
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People are delusional if they think that an armed society will rid itself of crime due to deterrence. If someone intrudes in to your home, will you take their life? So many instances of mistaken identity killings too (recall the father shooting son incident recently). Unfortunately the United States is a boiling pot of information and bias (some good, some bad) so it's really hard to form an opinion there without being influenced by the countless parties trying to form your opinion for you.
At the end of the day, guns are deadly and make it really easy to kill people. Gun control reduces gun-crime by making it much harder for people to obtain guns, body armor, whatever. It also means it's extremely hard to obtain very deadly weapons (automatics, body armor).
People also seem to think that gun control means to outlaw firearms, which is garbage. You can own guns in Australia too, it's just much harder and takes time.. you need to be certified, trained and regulated. The point is, criminals are regularly found with unlicensed firearms that are taken away. Gun advocates would say that's evidence that it doesn't work but in reality it's a disincentive for them to carry firearms and also makes it more difficult to obtain replacements... not to mention it's virtually impossible for an ordinary person to obtain ANYTHING automatic (pistol, SMG, assault, rifle).
As long as you want to live in fear of your fellow citizens arming themselves with deadly force, enjoy living in a country without gun control.
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On December 15 2012 08:15 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:11 jinorazi wrote:On December 15 2012 08:05 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:59 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:51 flexgd wrote:On December 15 2012 07:44 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:
[quote]
You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read. no u said gun controls dont work but what you actually say is "gun controls wouldnt work in the us". apples and oranges dude. you cant compare other nations gun controls to hypothetical us gun controls. what you are basically admitting is "i live in a country that is so oversaturated with guns that a gun ban would be logistically impossible and i dont trust the authorities enough so i feel like i need to own a gun to defend myself" and that is pretty sad isnt it? You're exactly right, you cannot compare other nation's gun control to the US. This is what I've been saying. Gun control would not work here. Now, I do not know where your next point came from. I don't trust authorities enough so I feel like I need a gun to defend myself? That's a little projection there, don't you think? This is not true at all, I just have a respect for the constitution and personal liberties. And facts. I suggest you have the same. well then tell me please why else you would want to own a gun other than "i own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago said it was ok". i mean "cause i can" is not a reason. what is going on in your mind when buying a gun i plan on getting a gun as a hobby, enthusiast. i dont see it any different than golf or car enthusiasm. home safety is the least of my concern. And this is when the authority should decide if you can be a responsible gun owner, or not. With tests and stuff. Because the safety of people is more important then your enthusiasm. This is how it should be working.
i agree, i'm all for very strict gun laws. there are many people that has guns that shouldnt own it, i'd same the same for people with cars though. i personally think slow drivers in the fast lane deserve jail time...joking but just to make a point.
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