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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
i think schools should have a small armory and there could be a dedicated minuteman that comes out and shoots the school shooter since police take so long to respond. i don't think people would try to do these mass shootings at schools if they know the response will be a guy with a much better gun comes at you within 5 minutes.
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On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon.
Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it.
Seems to work in other countrys though.
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On December 15 2012 07:31 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:24 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listwhile there is a correlation there, it's rather weak. I don't see anything weak about it. These are all the countries mentioned in the thread that have more stricter forms of gun regulation. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 Keep in mind we're comparing countries with gun regulation versus well, the US. There's nothing weak about the correlations. We're debating facts.
Switzerland - 0.77
Gun Ownership - 45.7/100k
Finland - 0.45
Gun Ownership - 45.3/100k
Trinidad and Tobago - 27.31
Gun Ownership - 1.6/100k
Ecuador - 12.73
Gun Ownership - 1.3/100k
While I would agree that there is somewhat of a correlation, it is by no means a strong one.
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On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 ArmOfDeath wrote:On December 15 2012 06:59 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:54 ArmOfDeath wrote:
[quote]
Your logic doesn't make sense, it's the logic of children. If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer. Would that stop people from trying to go on killing sprees though? Doubtful. What's the point that you're trying to make? That without guns in these types of situations less people would die? That's pretty obvious, but what if the criminal decided to take household chemicals and make mustard gas? Then a lot more people would've died. I fail to see your point, if you're even making one. You say make it harder to get guns. I say sure, why not. Again, watch Minority Report. What does that do in the end? Nothing, because most of these cases are perpetrated by people AFTER they've got their gun legally. Do we need to invent a crystal ball to look into the possible future(s) and see if they're going to go banana's? How would that help? Got to "Minority Report" then lol'd. Yes my point is that less people would die, and if you fail to see that point then there is no help for you, like i said in my previous post, i will stop replying if you cant understand it, its like talking to a wall with you. You have a severe lack of reading comprehension. Here, I'll quote to you what I said: "If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer." It's obvious that without guns there would be less killing in the same amount of time. But here is where you fail. If there are no guns, then people will find another way. Getting rid of or making it near impossible to get guns won't stop these situations from happening. I'm not saying don't try to make it stop, but that no matter what you do it will always happen, and by people who don't follow laws. In the end, you hurt law abiding citizens, not the criminals who don't follow the laws. And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught. I give up on people like you lol What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already.  Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from.
We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true.
Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers.
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On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon.
I'd like to see such studies.
Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence
Gun ownership - 45.7/100
Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence
Gun ownership - 30.8/100
Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence
Gun ownership - 37.8/100
United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence
Gun ownership - 88.8/100
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
Those countries listed above have stricter gun control laws. The US doesn't.
There has never been a time in the US where guns were federally banned or even regulated severely. Therefore you have to compare it with countries that have gun control. Inter-state comparisons do nothing.
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On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though.
You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear.
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On December 15 2012 07:07 Nagano wrote:(1) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01064462?LI=truehttp://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdfMyth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crimeShow nested quote +Fact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.
Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more
Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77
68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998
Point 3 is clearly false. As complete gun ban will necessarily have effect on prevalence of guns. Are they going to magically appear ?
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On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear.
What do i have to fear? lol.
And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask?
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On December 15 2012 07:36 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:28 Infinite976 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:23 HardlyNever wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:12 HardlyNever wrote:
Clearly the answer to gun violence is to arm the entire populace. Those kindergarteners should have been packing heat; they could have defended themselves. I think we should start giving guns to all citizens straight after birth.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, how many people have to die before we take gun control in this country in the right direction (more control) and stop letting an uneducated minority (looking at you NRA) hold the rest of the country hostage because their dick is small and they need to carry a gun to compensate. I'm sick of this bullshit. The evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths and the 2nd amendment was written in a time when the reality of state vs populace military power was very different.
The constitution can be changed for a reason. We need to exercise THAT right.
Nearing 300 million guns, almost 1 per citizen, in this country. And your solution is to forcefully ban them all. You also say the evidence is overwhelming that more control = less deaths. HA! If you really believe that, there's a news channel that's great for a person like you (who doesn't like facts), it's called Fox news. I'm liberal by all means but gun control laws are one of the few things the left has completely, COMPLETELY wrong information on. Facts are your friend, google is your friend. Use it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateNotice the countries with stronger gun country policies have less deaths. Show me your "facts" now. I imagine you're going to just attack mine without any evidence of your own, though. less deaths by gun you mean... here's an interesting one - http://voices.yahoo.com/firearm-ownership-mandatory-all-households-1418143.html?cat=17mandatory gun ownership in this town = 1 gun death in 3 decades Since you keep posting about your article. Population Size - 5000 - 1982 Current - 30,000 Small town settings are not the same as large metropolises.
Nor is America the same demographically as Europe. Apples and Oranges. Yet people still compare them.
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On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask?
Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours.
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On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 ArmOfDeath wrote:On December 15 2012 06:59 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
Got to "Minority Report" then lol'd.
Yes my point is that less people would die, and if you fail to see that point then there is no help for you, like i said in my previous post, i will stop replying if you cant understand it, its like talking to a wall with you. You have a severe lack of reading comprehension. Here, I'll quote to you what I said: "If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer." It's obvious that without guns there would be less killing in the same amount of time. But here is where you fail. If there are no guns, then people will find another way. Getting rid of or making it near impossible to get guns won't stop these situations from happening. I'm not saying don't try to make it stop, but that no matter what you do it will always happen, and by people who don't follow laws. In the end, you hurt law abiding citizens, not the criminals who don't follow the laws. And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught. I give up on people like you lol What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already. Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers.
why dont you state these facts then if you are obviously desperately trying to make a point here. and with facts i mean empirical evidence and not "its true because i know it is true"
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On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours.
Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo
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On December 15 2012 07:42 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:07 Nagano wrote:(1) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01064462?LI=truehttp://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdfMyth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crimeFact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.
Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more
Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77
68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998
Point 3 is clearly false. As complete gun ban will necessarily have effect on prevalence of guns. Are they going to magically appear ?
You don't understand the logistics of implementing a complete gun ban. Are guns going to magically DISappear?
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On December 15 2012 07:41 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. I'd like to see such studies. Sweden - 0.41 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 45.7/100 Canada - 0.51 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 30.8/100 Serbia - 0.46 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 37.8/100 United States - 2.97 - Homicide Rate related to gun violence Gun ownership - 88.8/100 http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-listThose countries listed above have stricter gun control laws. The US doesn't. There has never been a time in the US where guns were federally banned or even regulated severely. Therefore you have to compare it with countries that have gun control. Inter-state comparisons do nothing.
You are picking data that supports your conclusion and ignoring the data that doesn't.
How can you expect someone to take you seriously?
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On December 15 2012 07:43 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:43 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:41 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:38 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:36 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:33 Benjamin99 wrote:
I give up arguing with my fellow US TL members. It seems you been indoctrinated since child hood and is beyond help. (Good job to the US gun industry I must say). All I got to say you reap what you sow. And when the next gun mass school killing happens in the US and you looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror guys US gun industry? If anything school has taught me respect for the constitution, liberty, personal freedoms, and to question everything. I grew up anti-gun but it was through facts and exposure to those facts that shape my opinions today. The reason I want everyone to know that gun control laws do not work is because it's true. I would not tell you to google anything and everything you can on it if it were not true. Unfortunately, that is the reason why I believe you to be the indoctrinated one. It is because you don't look at the facts, at all the studies done by the government and universities throughout the decades showing that gun control does not work. Use your head, it's your best weapon. Yeah... you keep saying gun control does not work, we get it. Seems to work in other countrys though. You don't seem to get it because I know your mind is not changed. It's not my job to change your mind. It's your duty to yourself to arm yourself with facts rather than clinging to an irrational fear. What do i have to fear? lol. And i do get it perfectly, like i said, it seems to work in other country's, why is that may i ask? Apples and oranges. There is a whole internet of facts that does not agree with you. You can accept that or you can keep fearing firearms. Choice is yours. Yet you still refuse to answer my question Oo
I answered both. Different countries, apples and oranges. And a fear of firearms. Please learn to read.
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On December 15 2012 06:54 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:50 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 06:39 Nagano wrote:
At these times, it's important that you remember to use facts to back up your claim. Gun control laws DO. NOT. WORK. PERIOD.
At first it might make sense, hey they used guns to kill, guns are dangerous, ban them etc. Just look at all the facts available to you on the internet from reputable sources. This is where personal beliefs might not equal reality. So before you go calling for a gun ban, read up on the facts of gun control efficacy.
CT has had an assault weapon ban in place since 1994, it did nothing to stop this. NYC has a complete gun ban, so do many other crime ridden areas. Gun crime rises when there are gun bans in place. Again, the internet is your friend here--use it.
Furthermore, I'd like to ask the gun control folks, who obviously haven't been exposed to the facts regarding gun control, what other constitutional amendments they aren't in favor of. There is a certain ignorance to following the constitution only as how you see fit.
Any partial or even complete bans that do not cover whole territory of the state (as in country not US state) make absolutely no sense. The only way for gun control to work is to limit illegal supply of guns and that can happen only if legal supply is minimal and smuggling hard enough. That can happen only if the ban is in effect in a whole country. Plus even then effects would take decade(s) to show. Right. Clearly your invisible country lines are more effective than our imaginary state lines..... -_- Seriously, some people need to learn a lot more about American government before they post stupid shit like this. If a gun is illegal in a state, it's illegal in that state. You don't get an exemption because you brought it from a state where it's legal. It's no different than if it was from one European country to the next.
So you see no difference between border with Mexico and between states ? You are correct as far as border inside EU are concerned and same thing would be true if we were contemplating gun bans in EU.
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On December 15 2012 07:45 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:54 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:50 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 06:39 Nagano wrote:
At these times, it's important that you remember to use facts to back up your claim. Gun control laws DO. NOT. WORK. PERIOD.
At first it might make sense, hey they used guns to kill, guns are dangerous, ban them etc. Just look at all the facts available to you on the internet from reputable sources. This is where personal beliefs might not equal reality. So before you go calling for a gun ban, read up on the facts of gun control efficacy.
CT has had an assault weapon ban in place since 1994, it did nothing to stop this. NYC has a complete gun ban, so do many other crime ridden areas. Gun crime rises when there are gun bans in place. Again, the internet is your friend here--use it.
Furthermore, I'd like to ask the gun control folks, who obviously haven't been exposed to the facts regarding gun control, what other constitutional amendments they aren't in favor of. There is a certain ignorance to following the constitution only as how you see fit.
Any partial or even complete bans that do not cover whole territory of the state (as in country not US state) make absolutely no sense. The only way for gun control to work is to limit illegal supply of guns and that can happen only if legal supply is minimal and smuggling hard enough. That can happen only if the ban is in effect in a whole country. Plus even then effects would take decade(s) to show. Right. Clearly your invisible country lines are more effective than our imaginary state lines..... -_- Seriously, some people need to learn a lot more about American government before they post stupid shit like this. If a gun is illegal in a state, it's illegal in that state. You don't get an exemption because you brought it from a state where it's legal. It's no different than if it was from one European country to the next. So you see no difference between border with Mexico and between states ? You are correct as far as border inside EU are concerned and same thing would be true if we were contemplating gun bans in EU.
Mexico/US border is someone of a unique situation due to the amount of criminal activity involved with it. I think it's far fairer to talk about EU borders when we are discussing moving legal things from one US state to another where they are illegal.
I should note this is in response to the Swedish guy saying "well Finland is different". Well, yeah, Wisconsin is different than California as well. We have less strict gun rules, and FAR less gun violence. Yet their social problems get lumped into ours when we talk about nations.
And yes, guns are just about as easy to smuggle from state to state as they are ffrom the USA to canada or Finland to Sweden.
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On December 15 2012 07:42 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:07 Nagano wrote:(1) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01064462?LI=truehttp://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdfMyth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crimeFact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.
Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more
Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77
68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998
Point 3 is clearly false. As complete gun ban will necessarily have effect on prevalence of guns. Are they going to magically appear ?
The question is how are you magically going to elimiate 300,000,000 firearms in the US, including all the ones that are in criminal hands who won't turn them in. Also account for the US-Mexican border where cartels bring anything they want whenever they want into the US. Guns included.
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On December 15 2012 07:40 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:36 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 07:28 Nagano wrote:On December 15 2012 07:26 Jamial wrote:On December 15 2012 07:19 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:10 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:08 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:06 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 ArmOfDeath wrote:On December 15 2012 06:59 Reaps wrote:
[quote]
Got to "Minority Report" then lol'd.
Yes my point is that less people would die, and if you fail to see that point then there is no help for you, like i said in my previous post, i will stop replying if you cant understand it, its like talking to a wall with you. You have a severe lack of reading comprehension. Here, I'll quote to you what I said: "If you're going to say that the rate of death is lower without guns in MASS KILLINGS than that's a no brainer." It's obvious that without guns there would be less killing in the same amount of time. But here is where you fail. If there are no guns, then people will find another way. Getting rid of or making it near impossible to get guns won't stop these situations from happening. I'm not saying don't try to make it stop, but that no matter what you do it will always happen, and by people who don't follow laws. In the end, you hurt law abiding citizens, not the criminals who don't follow the laws. And my point is.. (which you obviously fail to understand because you're either very young or just not that bright) if they did find another way it would be much HARDER to kill the amount of people they normally do in these situations.. your whole gas comment is amusing seeing just how hard that would be to make and transport it to the target without getting caught. I give up on people like you lol What's so hard about driving a speeding car into a crowd of people? Would it kill as many people as a madman with a gun walking around a school shooting kids? Omg is it really that hard to understand lol. Apparently things seem very difficult for you to understand. I suppose by your own logic we should ban smoking too right? Cigarettes and Death
Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:•443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) •49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure •269,655 deaths annually among men •173,940 deaths annually among women http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/Or what about cars? Let's ban cars too: “Motor vehicle crashes in the United States result in more than 40,000 deaths per year,” says the Institute in the journal Injury Prevention. “That is, on each of the 6,209 consecutive days included in this study, an equivalent of a plane load or more of people died on the roads.”http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146212,00.html To go off-topic: Smoking should be banned simply for the fact that it makes OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU sick. By smoking you're hurting other people. And smoking is not a societal necessity as being able to drive cars, or fly planes, or whatever else. If I had any say, it would be banned already. Seems to be your culture, to ban everything you don't like. You don't like it, others shouldn't have access to it because they have to feel the same as you. The United States has somewhat more "freedom" in this respect. Sure there are a lot of things wrong with this place, but there are still some people here who respect liberty. Or you can flip the whole thing and say that the people in the USA are reluctant to make any compromise to live together. Depends where you are coming from. We do live together. Do you have this idea that people shoot guns in their backyards 20 feet from their neighbors or something? The U.S. I want to live in has a respect for personal freedoms, liberty, constitutional rights, and for facts. Gun control laws do not work. I would not tell you to look for the truth on google and from studies if I did not know it to be true. Your mind is the best weapon, seek more answers.
1. Why are you using the words *truth* and *google* in the same sentence? Or even studies? Studies in general can be used to proves anything., you just have to pick your data carefully.
2. Gun control laws DO work everywhere but in the USA.
The problem is, that every single US citizen is living in fear. It is taught, it is suggested by the media. To a European, your fear of being shot, being hit by a car, being attacked by terrorist is almost comical in a sad-terrifying way. If the whole society wasn't so dependent on fear, gun control laws could work perfectly. But people in the USA are too terrified of literally everything to. I mean, if you think that if someone breaks into your home, he will want to rape and/or kill you or other family member of yours (more people have actually wrote that in this very topic), then something is fucked-up in the very basic of your mind.
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On December 15 2012 07:09 Infinite976 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:05 Benjamin99 wrote:On December 15 2012 07:04 Infinite976 wrote:You guys and your lists of countries... how many stabbings does Japan have per capita over the US? Banning things just makes people search all the more for an effective alternative, see: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20121021a1.html Well the difference is you cant mass kill 25 people in 30min with a knife http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacrewhat about 17 people leaving 7 dead, in 2 minutes Benjamin? I'd argue you could mass kill 25 people in 30min with a knife..
Did you notice him using truck and running it into people. Killing 25 people in 30 minutes with a knife would be incredible feat.
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EPT
