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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 15 2012 06:20 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. It doesn't matter how controlled guns are.. if some sick fuck wants to walk into a school and shoot/kill people they will find a way to do it. End of story, when anything is banned/controlled heavily there will ALWAYS be a black market to get said banned thing. Banning guns will not stop these kinds of things, the only real way to stop shit like this from happening is to notice the signs of a family member/friend. It takes some form of mental illness to pull of something that horrible. To stop it, people need to pick up on when others around them seem off or start acting off or showing signs of psychotic behaviour and step in then before hand. People who want to use a gun to kill people will always find a way to get a gun. Heavily gun control will only stop the people who want a fire arm to defend themselves.
But..that's why countries with heavily regulated federal level gun control are much more dangerous right?
I find the US is beyond help. Their marketplace is already too over-saturated with guns. But we see the failures in their current system way too often in the news.
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On December 15 2012 06:21 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:12 JingleHell wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 divito wrote:On December 15 2012 05:53 JingleHell wrote:
Who deserves more protection under law, the person violating the rights of others, or the person having their rights violated? Whether I own a gun or not, my "right" to not be broken into can still be violated. If I'm armed in my house, I think I stand more chance of being fired upon than if I'm not armed; only thing that will change that is the frame of mind of the criminal. The whole issue is fairly circular though. The US is the only first-world nation that has such loose restrictions on guns, and has the kind of population and violence to showcase ridiculous stats. This gives pro-gun people something to point to, saying "see, we need it." It's going to be impossible to convince outside countrymen that have lower gun-related crime and higher restrictions on obtaining guns, that it somehow makes sense. I'm aware that the argument is circular. See my other posts, regarding my opinion on gun control. However, I don't agree that being unarmed makes you safer. It just changes the form the violence might or might not take. If the criminal isn't going to be violent if you're unarmed, they're probably just going to run or surrender if you pull a gun. If they're going to attack you, there's a chance they might have anyways, just to prove who's in control. As for whether that attack will be lethal or potentially lethal, there's actually no way to prove it either way, because every situation will be different, and since it's all hypothetical from here, we can make it any hypothetical we want to support our side of things. It makes you safer in the long run. As in the long run gun supply would dry up also for criminals. It does not make you completely safe, but is nonsensical requirement. It is enough that statistics go down.
I'd rather not be a statistic, thanks.
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On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is!
And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested.
What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing.
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No, the murder of ANYONE is never a joke, the joke is the stupidity behind whether guns should be banned, which is what this debate has and always will devolve into. It's beyond sad, and a true tragedy that it happened, but discussing whether tighter gun control will prevent CRIMINALS from FOLLOWING LAWS is beyond retarded. If you want this to be about how sad it is that children were shot, then talk about that and leave out the other thing. THAT is my point.
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On December 15 2012 06:26 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:20 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. It doesn't matter how controlled guns are.. if some sick fuck wants to walk into a school and shoot/kill people they will find a way to do it. End of story, when anything is banned/controlled heavily there will ALWAYS be a black market to get said banned thing. Banning guns will not stop these kinds of things, the only real way to stop shit like this from happening is to notice the signs of a family member/friend. It takes some form of mental illness to pull of something that horrible. To stop it, people need to pick up on when others around them seem off or start acting off or showing signs of psychotic behaviour and step in then before hand. People who want to use a gun to kill people will always find a way to get a gun. Heavily gun control will only stop the people who want a fire arm to defend themselves. But..that's why countries with heavily regulated federal level gun control are much more dangerous right? I find the US is beyond help. Their marketplace is already too over-saturated with guns. But we see the failures in their current system way too often in the news.
It's not the guns, it's the drugs that are "oversaturated".
If you truly care, go ahead and do your own research on how drugged up the US is vs the rest of the world.
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On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!"
Illegal source mostly means stolen legally procured weapon. So reducing gun ownership would actually mean lowering number of guns available to criminals. Guns of reasonable quality are much harder to produce "at home" than meth or other drugs making that picture's analogy rather bad. If the only way for criminals to obtain a gun is from smuggler it would mean only organized crime could afford them. Even that would mean much better outcome, especially since even if you own gun it is of doubtful use against organized crime.
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On December 15 2012 06:23 ArmOfDeath wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pPmMQ.jpg) I mean seriously, is this entire thread a joke?
Professional criminals don't follow laws.
Schoolkids do.
Schoolshootings are done by schoolkids.
27 deaths is NOT a joke.
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On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing.
If they are caught with an illegal firearm, they get BIIIIIG trouble. And as stated before, 80% of crimes committed are with guns that they would be in big trouble for having.
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On December 15 2012 06:28 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Illegal source mostly means stolen legally procured weapon. So reducing gun ownership would actually mean lowering number of guns available to criminals. Guns of reasonable quality are much harder to produce "at home" than meth or other drugs making that picture's analogy rather bad. If the only way for criminals to obtain a gun is from smuggler it would mean only organized crime could afford them. Even that would mean much better outcome, especially since even if you own gun it is of doubtful use against organized crime.
And how do you suggest the US collect these weapons so the public doesnt have them? What about gun collectors? What do you do about the massive black market that would show up if the US tried to forcibly take all of the weapons away?
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On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing.
I'm sorry but this is beyond stupid. Did you know that %99.9 of gun owners are responsible and don't do anything illegal with their guns? You are comparing gun owners with meth and heroine users?
This topic was fun.
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On December 15 2012 06:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing. If they are caught with an illegal firearm, they get BIIIIIG trouble. And as stated before, 80% of crimes committed are with guns that they would be in big trouble for having.
No, the guns that was used today and every other recent shooting was actualy legal to own.
And i'd love to know where you get this 80% from 
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On December 15 2012 06:27 ArmOfDeath wrote:
No, the murder of ANYONE is never a joke, the joke is the stupidity behind whether guns should be banned, which is what this debate has and always will devolve into. It's beyond sad, and a true tragedy that it happened, but discussing whether tighter gun control will prevent CRIMINALS from FOLLOWING LAWS is beyond retarded. If you want this to be about how sad it is that children were shot, then talk about that and leave out the other thing. THAT is my point.
What you're basically implying is that since firearms are illegal in Denmark ( and many other countries ), every criminal still owns one because they're not law-abiding? I don't know whether to cry or laugh.
Common petty criminals have no reason to use weapons. Making weapons illegal won't prevent organized criminals from obtaining and using weapons of course, but it would go a long way to make it harder for the small time criminals to get them.
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On December 15 2012 06:27 ArmOfDeath wrote:
No, the murder of ANYONE is never a joke, the joke is the stupidity behind whether guns should be banned, which is what this debate has and always will devolve into. It's beyond sad, and a true tragedy that it happened, but discussing whether tighter gun control will prevent CRIMINALS from FOLLOWING LAWS is beyond retarded. If you want this to be about how sad it is that children were shot, then talk about that and leave out the other thing. THAT is my point.
So why does the USA have like 90% of all the schoolshootings?
I could link the wikipedia article again but it's in this thread so often already.
What is that other thing besides gun laws that makes you so different from other countries?
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On December 15 2012 06:30 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing. I'm sorry but this is beyond stupid. Did you know that %99.9 of gun owners are responsible and don't do anything illegal with their guns? You are comparing gun owners with meth and heroine users? This topic was fun.
THE HELL are you talking about? the only person that was comparing guns and meth users was the person i quoted, can you actualy read?
Oh wait you was the guy that compared natural diseases to gun deaths, makes sense now.
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On December 15 2012 06:25 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:21 Teodice wrote:
I would never even consider owning a gun since I´d just think of all the backfire situations that might occur. I can´t see how people can feel more safe with a gun in their home, then you do not feel safe in the first place and why stay at a place where it´s not safe?
The argument about your freedom and right to wear a gun... So what? Are you really prepared to shoot somebody? Since that´s what they are made for, shooting people.
As stated before. The ones who commits these shootings are not registered criminals, they appear and act like a normal person. I wouldnt really like the idea that the guy next door owns a AK47 just since it´s his "right". Then stuff like this seam to happen.
Dunno, I´m just a pussy swedish communist who likes restrictions. But sometimes I´m glad they´re there. Sweden has a very high rate of gun ownership.
And as stated before, a much lower rate of gun related violence. The requirements for having a gun here are pretty steep.
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On December 15 2012 06:27 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:21 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 06:12 JingleHell wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 divito wrote:On December 15 2012 05:53 JingleHell wrote:
Who deserves more protection under law, the person violating the rights of others, or the person having their rights violated? Whether I own a gun or not, my "right" to not be broken into can still be violated. If I'm armed in my house, I think I stand more chance of being fired upon than if I'm not armed; only thing that will change that is the frame of mind of the criminal. The whole issue is fairly circular though. The US is the only first-world nation that has such loose restrictions on guns, and has the kind of population and violence to showcase ridiculous stats. This gives pro-gun people something to point to, saying "see, we need it." It's going to be impossible to convince outside countrymen that have lower gun-related crime and higher restrictions on obtaining guns, that it somehow makes sense. I'm aware that the argument is circular. See my other posts, regarding my opinion on gun control. However, I don't agree that being unarmed makes you safer. It just changes the form the violence might or might not take. If the criminal isn't going to be violent if you're unarmed, they're probably just going to run or surrender if you pull a gun. If they're going to attack you, there's a chance they might have anyways, just to prove who's in control. As for whether that attack will be lethal or potentially lethal, there's actually no way to prove it either way, because every situation will be different, and since it's all hypothetical from here, we can make it any hypothetical we want to support our side of things. It makes you safer in the long run. As in the long run gun supply would dry up also for criminals. It does not make you completely safe, but is nonsensical requirement. It is enough that statistics go down. I'd rather not be a statistic, thanks.
But you are, and I am much safer statistically without a gun than you with one. And that is my point. In no system are you guaranteed safety. But in some you are guaranteed high probability of such. Incidentally those systems do not involve so many guns.
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On December 15 2012 06:31 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing. If they are caught with an illegal firearm, they get BIIIIIG trouble. And as stated before, 80% of crimes committed are with guns that they would be in big trouble for having. No, the guns that was used today and every other recent shooting was actualy legal to own. And i'd love to know where you get this 80% from
Already linked it: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm
The US department of justice.
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4Chan photoshops have been done for like every single mayor school shooting out there.
You can trust Fox News to deliver unbiased political commentary as much as you can 4chan for anything.
On December 15 2012 06:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:31 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing. If they are caught with an illegal firearm, they get BIIIIIG trouble. And as stated before, 80% of crimes committed are with guns that they would be in big trouble for having. No, the guns that was used today and every other recent shooting was actualy legal to own. And i'd love to know where you get this 80% from Already linked it: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfmThe US department of justice.
A 1997 survey made in one states prisons? Do you have something more recent than a 15 year old single state survey?
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On December 15 2012 06:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:31 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:27 Reaps wrote:On December 15 2012 06:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction. It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is! And what happens when people are caught with meth and herione? They get arrested. What happens when people are caught with firearms? nothing. If they are caught with an illegal firearm, they get BIIIIIG trouble. And as stated before, 80% of crimes committed are with guns that they would be in big trouble for having. No, the guns that was used today and every other recent shooting was actualy legal to own. And i'd love to know where you get this 80% from Already linked it: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfmThe US department of justice.
I really wonder why is family and friends before street buy in that sentence.
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EPT
