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On December 15 2012 06:06 Esk23 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 05:58 mcc wrote:On December 15 2012 05:40 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 05:32 hzflank wrote:On December 15 2012 05:29 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 05:25 Godwrath wrote:On December 15 2012 05:15 Esk23 wrote:On December 15 2012 05:12 Hryul wrote:On December 15 2012 04:43 JingleHell wrote:
However, a gun is a great equalizer. And I thought you Americans don't like communism  But on a serious note: No it's not. Reflexes can be trained, the will to use a gun is different for every person. Situational advantages factor in greatly. This argument is a lie. For the rest of your wall of text: A burglar is not a murderer. The sentence to robbing is not death. LOL. You'd sit down and have a beer with a burglar in your own house wouldn't you? You actually respect or think burglars have any rights whatsoever when they violate others' rights by trying to rob them? Wow. For hell sake, most robberies occur when there is no people inside the house, why do you think it works this way ? Killing instead of robbing will make you way more likely to get caught. What you do by having guns as self defense is forcing robbers to escalate their "intimidation" tools. No it's not. What you are doing by having guns for self-defense is making the criminal move on to another house where the people don't have them. Why rob someone with a gun instead of someone who doesn't have one. Criminals do not burgle random houses. They usually plan the robbery in advance and cannot just move to another house. Have you ever discussed burglary with anyone who knows anything about it? (Police or crimianl) Can you provide me some evidence that backs up even a tiny inch of what you are saying? http://www.gunsandammoenthusiastblog.com/criminals-fear-armed-citizens-more-then-the-police-poll-states/1. Would you B&E (break and enter) a home if you thought it occupied?
A. No — 88 percent (the other 12 percent are hard-core burglars).
2. Would you B&E a home if you knew the owner was home and maybe had a gun?
A. No — 95 percent (the other 5 percent are called cat burglars)
3. Would you B&E a home if you knew the owner was home and did, in fact, have a gun?
A. No — 100 percent (I told you they fear the homeowner).
No other survey I studied in my 27 years of law enforcement in Miami Metro Dade County did I see a 100 percent, not even for a Mother’s Day holiday.In the US, most criminals fear us, in your country it's appears to be the opposite. Such a good source, as good as hearsay. Note that even without a gun there is 88% "prevention" rate. So you gained 12% and paid for that by having basically militarized and violent society in which you are more likely to get killed and more likely to get robbed (as the robbers actually do not know if you are home and/or own a gun thus making the above irrelevant). And I do fear criminals, I am not stupid. But I am less likely to be a victim of serious crime than you so the amount of actual fear is much less. I don't even know where to begin with your post. So you're saying having guns for self defense has "created a militarized and violent society where you are more likely to get killed and robbed." I'm sorry that you learned these "facts" from god knows where but they are false. Guns don't MAKE anyone violent. You have this concept that reminds me a lot of The Lord of the Rings where the ring turns whoever has it evil, that is FUNNY. Again, you have no stats like I asked for that back up even the slightest bit of what you say. You just see crime and blame it on guns. That's stupid. You fear criminals, but you are not stupid. Yet you are risking your own life on the chances that you'll never come across a criminal or get robbed or whatever. I could do that too, the chances are low in most places of even getting robbed whether or not you have a gun. But it does happen to people, A LOT, they have every right to defend themselves.
No I am not talking about some magical property of guns that make singular people violent. I am talking about attitudes towards guns and their prevalent ownership making the society (not an individual) violent. As for the stats, what stats are you looking for ? That US has higher homicide rates than basically all of first world, or that you have more robberies ? Those are pretty easily found, but I can link them to you if you want.
How am I risking my life by not having a gun ? Gun is not some magical thing protecting you against being killed, how do you know you will kill the other person and not him you ? Statistics speak clearly and tell you that the best thing to minimize the risk of being killed or robbed it to emigrate to some other country. So I am risking nothing compared to you. I am less likely to be killed or robbed. Thus my risk is lower. Do you understand what risk means ?
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On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors.
to be fair, they had 1 school shooting which skews the statistics quite a bit, due to their very low population
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On December 15 2012 06:03 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 05:57 Zandar wrote:
So weird. 90% of the time there is a school shooting it seems to happen in the same country.
A country that has some silly gun law that a majority of its citizens wants to keep.
I guess they find all these deaths less important than the freedom to carry a gun. Finland had more homocides by firearms in 2010 per 100k Finland = 3.64 USA = 2.98 Remember that nearly 60% of firearm related deaths in the USA are suicide-related.
In a recent study by the UN, it was found that firearms are used on average for 60% of all homicides.[19] In 2010 USA homicides, guns are the weapon of choice, especially for multiple homicides.[20] Firearm homicides in the United States account for 11,493 deaths.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
![[image loading]](http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/XR9hd9wlLhRUBRTNTB4ISQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zMjg7cT04NTt3PTM3Nw--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/bf0e817f8b5df816170f6a7067005b56.jpg)
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On December 15 2012 06:14 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:10 Zandar wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 06:06 Zandar wrote:On December 15 2012 06:00 JingleHell wrote:
if they have less ways available. There was war and murder before the gun, after all.
I don't believe gun control is bad. I believe that it would be incredibly difficult, between our political climate, and the number of available firearms, to actually implement something effective, and since that's the case, I prefer to be armed. We had a day here once where everyone who had a weapon could give it to the police without any consequences. But if you kept it after that day the consequences would be severe. Millions of weapons collected. Of course not all, but it's a start. And they kept their promise too, mostly. 1 guy still got in some more investigation trouble when he came to the police station with an anti tank weapon  Yeah, they do that here too. Pay you in some cities to turn in hand guns. You know who doesn't participate? Criminals. Criminals don't start school shootings How could you possibly think that's relevant? Psychopaths who murder children also don't turn in their weapons. What's your point?
My point is that I agree, criminals will keep their guns anyway.
But schoolshootings are started by mentally disturbed or severly depressed kids, not by professional criminals.
I'd like it if those kids couldn't get guns so easily yes.
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On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors.
Actually, you dont. You do much, much, worse if you want to compare yourself to Swedens crime rates.
On December 15 2012 06:16 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors. to be fair, they had 1 school shooting which skews the statistics quite a bit, due to their very low population
That was Finland, they are not even a part of Scandinavia.
Edit: Oh, refering to Finland? Yeah, Finland has gun control issues as well as some pretty grim social issues.
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On December 15 2012 06:10 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:08 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 06:06 Zandar wrote:On December 15 2012 06:00 JingleHell wrote:
if they have less ways available. There was war and murder before the gun, after all.
I don't believe gun control is bad. I believe that it would be incredibly difficult, between our political climate, and the number of available firearms, to actually implement something effective, and since that's the case, I prefer to be armed. We had a day here once where everyone who had a weapon could give it to the police without any consequences. But if you kept it after that day the consequences would be severe. Millions of weapons collected. Of course not all, but it's a start. And they kept their promise too, mostly. 1 guy still got in some more investigation trouble when he came to the police station with an anti tank weapon Yeah, they do that here too. Pay you in some cities to turn in hand guns. You know who doesn't participate? Criminals. Criminals don't start school shootings
It's tough to know this because juvenille records are usually sealed.
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Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm
- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
- a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
- family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody.
Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted:
Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!"
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On December 15 2012 06:18 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:10 Zandar wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 heliusx wrote:On December 15 2012 06:06 Zandar wrote:On December 15 2012 06:00 JingleHell wrote:
if they have less ways available. There was war and murder before the gun, after all.
I don't believe gun control is bad. I believe that it would be incredibly difficult, between our political climate, and the number of available firearms, to actually implement something effective, and since that's the case, I prefer to be armed. We had a day here once where everyone who had a weapon could give it to the police without any consequences. But if you kept it after that day the consequences would be severe. Millions of weapons collected. Of course not all, but it's a start. And they kept their promise too, mostly. 1 guy still got in some more investigation trouble when he came to the police station with an anti tank weapon Yeah, they do that here too. Pay you in some cities to turn in hand guns. You know who doesn't participate? Criminals. Criminals don't start school shootings It's tough to know this because juvenille records are usually sealed.
To be more clear, I meant professional criminals. Not college kids with a problem.
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On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough.
It doesn't matter how controlled guns are.. if some sick fuck wants to walk into a school and shoot/kill people they will find a way to do it. End of story, when anything is banned/controlled heavily there will ALWAYS be a black market to get said banned thing.
Banning guns will not stop these kinds of things, the only real way to stop shit like this from happening is to notice the signs of a family member/friend. It takes some form of mental illness to pull of something that horrible. To stop it, people need to pick up on when others around them seem off or start acting off or showing signs of psychotic behaviour and step in then before hand.
People who want to use a gun to kill people will always find a way to get a gun. Heavily gun control will only stop the people who want a fire arm to defend themselves.
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On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!"
Yes, because guns also cause addiction.
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I would never even consider owning a gun since I´d just think of all the backfire situations that might occur. I can´t see how people can feel more safe with a gun in their home, then you do not feel safe in the first place and why stay at a place where it´s not safe?
The argument about your freedom and right to wear a gun... So what? Are you really prepared to shoot somebody? Since that´s what they are made for, shooting people.
As stated before. The ones who commits these shootings are not registered criminals, they appear and act like a normal person. I wouldnt really like the idea that the guy next door owns a AK47 just since it´s his "right". Then stuff like this seam to happen.
Dunno, I´m just a pussy swedish communist who likes restrictions. But sometimes I´m glad they´re there.
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On December 15 2012 06:12 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:08 divito wrote:On December 15 2012 05:53 JingleHell wrote:
Who deserves more protection under law, the person violating the rights of others, or the person having their rights violated? Whether I own a gun or not, my "right" to not be broken into can still be violated. If I'm armed in my house, I think I stand more chance of being fired upon than if I'm not armed; only thing that will change that is the frame of mind of the criminal. The whole issue is fairly circular though. The US is the only first-world nation that has such loose restrictions on guns, and has the kind of population and violence to showcase ridiculous stats. This gives pro-gun people something to point to, saying "see, we need it." It's going to be impossible to convince outside countrymen that have lower gun-related crime and higher restrictions on obtaining guns, that it somehow makes sense. I'm aware that the argument is circular. See my other posts, regarding my opinion on gun control. However, I don't agree that being unarmed makes you safer. It just changes the form the violence might or might not take. If the criminal isn't going to be violent if you're unarmed, they're probably just going to run or surrender if you pull a gun. If they're going to attack you, there's a chance they might have anyways, just to prove who's in control. As for whether that attack will be lethal or potentially lethal, there's actually no way to prove it either way, because every situation will be different, and since it's all hypothetical from here, we can make it any hypothetical we want to support our side of things.
It makes you safer in the long run. As in the long run gun supply would dry up also for criminals. It does not make you completely safe, but is nonsensical requirement. It is enough that statistics go down.
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Tired of all these Euros comparing their tiny population country of one race to a huge country like America with tons of ethnicity.
Multiply the size and population of your countries by 20, add millions of poor minorities, and go ahead and tell me how low your crime rate is.
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On December 15 2012 06:05 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:05 Moka wrote:On December 15 2012 06:03 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 05:57 Zandar wrote:
So weird. 90% of the time there is a school shooting it seems to happen in the same country.
A country that has some silly gun law that a majority of its citizens wants to keep.
I guess they find all these deaths less important than the freedom to carry a gun. Finland had more homocides by firearms in 2010 per 100k Finland = 3.64 USA = 2.98 Remember that nearly 60% of firearm related deaths in the USA are suicide-related. May I ask you sources of your statistics? Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_ratesort by homocide. sources are WHO and UN.
But finland has a population ceiling of 5.5 million. So the end number would be 200 dead from homicide. The equivalent US number would be well over 9000 deaths.
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On December 15 2012 06:21 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:19 TheRabidDeer wrote:Gun crime statistics: How the killers got their guns http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% - a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% - family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% Most occasions this happens it is not the owners gun that kills somebody. Also, oddly enough, a picture on facebook was posted: Had a baby making a face on it and said, "Making guns illegal will take them off the street? We should make heroine and meth illegal too!" Yes, because guns also cause addiction.
It is not the addiction that this is referring to, its the fact that heroine and meth are both already illegal but still quite common. Hell, marijuana is illegal in most states and look at how common that is!
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On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually.
Sure, but nowhere close to other countries that don't have such a problem with gun related deaths.
Is the current system of gun control in the US working or not? That is the crux. I don't think they are. I have been to about 20 different countries in my lifetime so far and only ever been close to a shooing incident once. That was on vacation in New York City.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pPmMQ.jpg)
I mean seriously, is this entire thread a joke?
User was warned for this post
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On December 15 2012 06:17 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors. Actually, you dont. You do much, much, worse if you want to compare yourself to Swedens crime rates. Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:16 nkr wrote:On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors. to be fair, they had 1 school shooting which skews the statistics quite a bit, due to their very low population That was Finland, they are not even a part of Scandinavia. Edit: Oh, refering to Finland? Yeah, Finland has gun control issues as well as some pretty grim social issuews.
While Sweden has a solid record of preventing violence, you guys are 10th in terms of ownership/population of guns in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
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On December 15 2012 06:23 ArmOfDeath wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I mean seriously, is this entire thread a joke?
Is the murder of 27 people a joke?(Let's be honest, that event is what has resurrected this debate.)
On December 15 2012 06:24 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:17 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors. Actually, you dont. You do much, much, worse if you want to compare yourself to Swedens crime rates. On December 15 2012 06:16 nkr wrote:On December 15 2012 06:13 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:10 Hypemeup wrote:On December 15 2012 06:08 BluePanther wrote:On December 15 2012 06:01 revel8 wrote:
Guns should be controlled. The current situation is not really working in America. How many more times must these sort of things happen there before people realise that? From reading this thread, still some way to go.
A very sad day. They are controlled. Quite a bit actually. Evidently not enough. We do better than your next door neighbors. to be fair, they had 1 school shooting which skews the statistics quite a bit, due to their very low population That was Finland, they are not even a part of Scandinavia. Edit: Oh, refering to Finland? Yeah, Finland has gun control issues as well as some pretty grim social issuews. While Sweden has a solid record of preventing violence, you guys are 10th in terms of ownership/population of guns in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
Yes, that is very true, we also do produce a lot of firepower. The diffrence is that the requirements for having those guns is much higher, which is probably why we do not have that much gun-related violence. I do not think guns should be outlawed at all, but having such low requirements that the average joe with a hero syndrome can have a semi-automatic firearm(or something even higher grade) is just inviting a tragedy, like the one America suffered today.
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On December 15 2012 06:21 Teodice wrote:
I would never even consider owning a gun since I´d just think of all the backfire situations that might occur. I can´t see how people can feel more safe with a gun in their home, then you do not feel safe in the first place and why stay at a place where it´s not safe?
The argument about your freedom and right to wear a gun... So what? Are you really prepared to shoot somebody? Since that´s what they are made for, shooting people.
As stated before. The ones who commits these shootings are not registered criminals, they appear and act like a normal person. I wouldnt really like the idea that the guy next door owns a AK47 just since it´s his "right". Then stuff like this seam to happen.
Dunno, I´m just a pussy swedish communist who likes restrictions. But sometimes I´m glad they´re there.
Sweden has a very high rate of gun ownership.
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EPT
