First, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, went to Maldives to discuss the abolition of flogging as a punishment for extra marital affairs, specifically since figure shows that women are more easy targets of this form of punishment than men even when men are more common offenders. UN says that this practice is the most inhumane form of punishment. Public flogging is done more to humiliate than to physically punish.
Then, all hell broke loose as people rallied outside UN demanding, among many things, 'Ban UN'', ''Islam is not a toy'', ''Flog Pillay'' and ''slaughter anyone against Islam''.
Maldivian President Mohamed Nasheed laments this turn of events, looking back to how Maldives was a matriarchal society and assigned great power and respect to its women. Now, Shadiya Ibrahim, member of the newly formed Gender Advocacy Working Group, claims women rights is vertually nonexistent in the country, as women are seen merely as reproductive tools and are met with unequal and severe punishment if this is violated. The group claims that radical Islamism is shifting the gender dynamics in the country for the worse. In some areas where imams (sort of islam religious leaders) are influential, female circumcision is even experiencing a resurgence and are kept from school.
I like to keep a level-headed approach to this as it involved cultural eccentricities, so I ask those who are expert on the topic (Islam law and women rights), why is this kind of "treatment" or views on women necessary for Islam? Is it a product of some historical event, or some underlying didactics that is meant for a greater order? And why is the law, even if you argue it is justified and culturally sanctioned, applied unevenly, with women women being punished faster and more readily than men offenders?
Women's rights is the most important thing. The Islamification in the Mideast the past 30 years has been extremely concerning. When Islamic fundamentalist beliefs was only kept to the Gulf countries, where people live like swine under Sharia, it now also exists in Iran, some people in Iraq and Lebanon influenced by Khomeini/Iran, Libya, and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is more powerful than it's ever been.
As for sub-Saharan African countries, their social condition is really, really bad, maybe not like Saudi Arabia perhaps, but it's still terrible . I'm glad the UN is pressuring for women's rights, and at the risk of sounding like a socialist, yes I indeed believe equal human beings deserve equal treatment.
A good number of Muslim countries have tons of civil rights for women, so it's not a matter of religion in society, but religion in politics.
The women are punished more readily, because the point of punishing extra marital affairs is to ensure that women stay faithful to their husbands, so that the men can have greater certainty that the children they must provide for are actually their own blood.
On January 25 2012 16:30 vetinari wrote: The women are punished more readily, because the point of punishing extra marital affairs is to ensure that women stay faithful to their husbands, so that the men can have greater certainty that the children they must provide for are actually their own blood.
That is possible to check now a days. Force a DNA test on each child born by law. If the woman sleeps around and uses protection it won't matter. Might take a while to change the thinking to be that way.
You're just going to get the same tired responses from Islamic apologists, along the lines of "this isn't true Islam," and "Islam respects women" and "we have to respect their culture/how dare you bash Islam, it's the religion of love/peace!!"
Bottom line is that in practice Islam, when allowed to rule, is a patriarchal religion. Whether that's what the book says or not doesn't matter, it's how it is. Anything else is just the no-true-scotsman fallacy.
On January 25 2012 16:37 cari-kira wrote: religion doesn't matter, it depends on how developed the society is. woman had really bad times in the western world, too, don't forget this.
history didn't start with the wild west. scnr;-)
Religion is hugely important as it controls a lot of things in a society, including a lot of things you probably consider indexes of development. I also don't see why the past in the West matters - that's over and done. You can't just say "well, it's cool to flog women because, like, women were property once here too." We concluded that was wrong, and as such we conclude that this is wrong.
Didn't know what the fuck female circumcision was so...
The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood—the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.[3] Around 85 percent of women who undergo FGM experience Types I and II, and 15 percent Type III, though Type III is the most common procedure in several countries, including Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti.[4] Several miscellaneous acts are categorized as Type IV. These range from a symbolic pricking or piercing of the clitoris or labia, to cauterization of the clitoris, cutting into the vagina to widen it (gishiri cutting), and introducing corrosive substances to tighten it.
What... the fuck..... even Type 1 and 2 remove the clitoris?
God it is times like this that I really appreciate being born into a country where people aren't throwing acid into women's faces or doing shit like that. Thank fucking god all I worried about as a kid was my parents beating me a little if I fucked up in school.
This is way more fucked up than the other "horrible news" like gangbangers getting shot and daughters getting locked in toilets. This is an entire community that actively support this kind of shit.
On January 25 2012 16:37 cari-kira wrote: religion doesn't matter, it depends on how developed the society is. woman had really bad times in the western world, too, don't forget this.
history didn't start with the wild west. scnr;-)
Religion is hugely important as it controls a lot of things in a society, including a lot of things you probably consider indexes of development. I also don't see why the past in the West matters - that's over and done. You can't just say "well, it's cool to flog women because, like, women were property once here too." We concluded that was wrong, and as such we conclude that this is wrong.
You missed the entire point. Cari-kira did not write that is alright to flog women because women were treated poorly in the past here. The argument was that development (I will assume economic and educational, here) has the most important impact on treatment of women.
When the religion first started, women were given the right to participate in politics, fight in wars, work, etc. It was ahead of it`s time. Then things fell apart in regards to women after a few decades. What you`re seeing is culture rewriting religion. Islam isn't so ancient. Its history is easy to look up.
It is important to consider that things weren't so great for Women in Christian and Eastern societies in the past. Including the not-so-recent past (1960s James Bond "In Japan, men come first" quote). Perhaps not as bad as Islamic extremism, but it still cannot be ignored. This is more of the culture being centuries behind the times than really something that can be blamed on Islam. Women being secondary in society is nothing new to the world, just that some parts of the world are far behind and these places are using Islam as an excuse.
On January 25 2012 14:05 Keyboard Warrior wrote: First, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay....
Then, all hell broke loose as people rallied outside UN demanding, among many things, 'Ban UN'', ''Islam is not a toy'', ''Flog Pillay''....
I am a Muslim and I can assure you woman's has all the rights and there is nothing against woman in Islam, Westerns is trying to fight Islam in every way "and it is clear for everyone" so they are raising such topics.
Islam, as every other religion has rules, and you have to execute and commit to these rules, some of these rules concerning woman's and the relation between Man and Woman, for example: 1. Nude "we call it Awrah" where is defines the areas in the body for both Men and Woman which is not allowed for other people to see "man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman"
a. For man, the Nude "Awrah" is between the stomach to knees, the area between stomach to knees must be hide by cloth, you cannot go out in the street showing your knees or above, or your stomach and under, in your home, you are free to do whatever you want, but in front of people you are not. b. For woman, her Nude "Awrah" includes her entire body but the faces and hands, a woman cannot show her parts to foreign people (foreign are the men which she can marry).
I've always found female circumcision to be one of the most disturbing ideas humanly possible, that is still considered "normal" in certain places of this world... so wrong :/
On January 25 2012 18:11 bdair2002 wrote: I am a Muslim and I can assure you woman's has all the rights and there is nothing against woman in Islam, Westerns is trying to fight Islam in every way "and it is clear for everyone" so they are raising such topics.
Islam, as every other religion has rules, and you have to execute and commit to these rules, some of these rules concerning woman's and the relation between Man and Woman, for example: 1. Nude "we call it Awrah" where is defines the areas in the body for both Men and Woman which is not allowed for other people to see "man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman"
a. For man, the Nude "Awrah" is between the stomach to knees, the area between stomach to knees must be hide by cloth, you cannot go out in the street showing your knees or above, or your stomach and under, in your home, you are free to do whatever you want, but in front of people you are not. b. For woman, her Nude "Awrah" includes her entire body but the faces and hands, a woman cannot show her parts to foreign people (foreign are the men which she can marry).
Are you really trying to argue that there is no institutional sexism in Islamic countries and that it was all made up by the west to make Islam look bad? It's okay to claim that it is cultural rather than religious but to deny it entirely is absurd.
On January 25 2012 16:37 cari-kira wrote: religion doesn't matter, it depends on how developed the society is. woman had really bad times in the western world, too, don't forget this.
history didn't start with the wild west. scnr;-)
Religion is hugely important as it controls a lot of things in a society, including a lot of things you probably consider indexes of development. I also don't see why the past in the West matters - that's over and done. You can't just say "well, it's cool to flog women because, like, women were property once here too." We concluded that was wrong, and as such we conclude that this is wrong.
Agreed. this is going to end up like that 3rd world poverty thread... i'm so tired.
On January 25 2012 18:11 bdair2002 wrote: I am a Muslim and I can assure you woman's has all the rights and there is nothing against woman in Islam, Westerns is trying to fight Islam in every way "and it is clear for everyone" so they are raising such topics.
Islam, as every other religion has rules, and you have to execute and commit to these rules, some of these rules concerning woman's and the relation between Man and Woman, for example: 1. Nude "we call it Awrah" where is defines the areas in the body for both Men and Woman which is not allowed for other people to see "man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman"
a. For man, the Nude "Awrah" is between the stomach to knees, the area between stomach to knees must be hide by cloth, you cannot go out in the street showing your knees or above, or your stomach and under, in your home, you are free to do whatever you want, but in front of people you are not. b. For woman, her Nude "Awrah" includes her entire body but the faces and hands, a woman cannot show her parts to foreign people (foreign are the men which she can marry).
Christians may have nuns but I don't think they ever had an era where vagina cauterization made a resurgence.
Your analogy from clothing to socioeconomic and political discrimination and persecution seems perfectly legit though. I applaud you for seeing the light.
On January 25 2012 18:11 bdair2002 wrote: I am a Muslim and I can assure you woman's has all the rights and there is nothing against woman in Islam, Westerns is trying to fight Islam in every way "and it is clear for everyone" so they are raising such topics.
Islam, as every other religion has rules, and you have to execute and commit to these rules, some of these rules concerning woman's and the relation between Man and Woman, for example: 1. Nude "we call it Awrah" where is defines the areas in the body for both Men and Woman which is not allowed for other people to see "man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman"
a. For man, the Nude "Awrah" is between the stomach to knees, the area between stomach to knees must be hide by cloth, you cannot go out in the street showing your knees or above, or your stomach and under, in your home, you are free to do whatever you want, but in front of people you are not. b. For woman, her Nude "Awrah" includes her entire body but the faces and hands, a woman cannot show her parts to foreign people (foreign are the men which she can marry).
Are you really trying to argue that there is no institutional sexism in Islamic countries and that it was all made up by the west to make Islam look bad? It's okay to claim that it is cultural rather than religious but to deny it entirely is absurd.
He's from Israel where Muslim women do have "all the rights" (i'm not too sure what he was talking about in the rest of his post which seemed to contradict the first part of the first sentence, but the first paragraph is the one I'm referring to), and along with the guy from Jordan, these aren't countries with institutionalized sexism. A good number of Islamic countries don't have institutionalized sexism. These two guys are speaking from their own experiences. Not everywhere is Saudi Arabia. I know a whole community of Christians from Iraq who didn't face or see any institutional sexism (or considering their Christians, not even religious discrimination) before the Iraq War (obviously things have changed by now). Lebanese are similar. I've come across only a few people from Turkey, but I do know that Turkey has been almost fanatically politically/socially secular for almost a century.
EPT
. I'm glad the UN is pressuring for women's rights, and at the risk of sounding like a socialist, yes I indeed believe equal human beings deserve equal treatment.![[image loading]](http://sharkrobot.com/images/medium/shirt_vgc_heylisten_MED.jpg)
