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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING:The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. |
On January 25 2012 23:25 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:01 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 25 2012 23:00 klaxen wrote:On January 25 2012 22:55 mTw|NarutO wrote:
. After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground. Did you not see the video posted at the top where the guy is shot in the stomach and continues to slowly kill that officer? Also, the guy had just gotten tazed in the face to no effect. Its a different video. Watch the one in the opening posts. He stumbles back... or is about to fall back from the first 2 maximum. The X other shots just add to that... Also do you know that you do not immediately realize the hit? Could he killed the officer after being shot twice? Most likely not. Could the officer just back out from the threat? Yes. After the first 2 shots both could have backed up a little. I'm not saying the officer did wrong, I just think a person died when it was not neccessary. "Most likely not?" I don't care if it's a 99% chance that the guy can't get up or can't reach around and pull out a pistol. You assume it's the 1% and shoot until he isn't a threat. There's a ton of people saying he should "look at how he's falling" or "look at how his arms are poised, he wasn't going to hit him!" The cop wasn't thinking about any of that. He was thinking about the impending death of his partner and neutralizing the threat. It lies entirely on the fault of the perp with the crowbar. If he didn't want to die yesterday, he probably shouldn't have attacked a police officer.
Clearly the guy went full retard on the cop but that doesnt excuse any errors on the side of the two police officers. Tazing to the face (which can be lethal as well if the currents go through brain tissue) for example. Also after the initial burst there was no indication that you could expect any sort of further agressive behaviour. If he reached anywhere after the initial burst, sure go ahead and finish the job, but this situation COULD have been handled a lot better if the officers were more experienced with high stress situations.
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On January 25 2012 22:43 Prospero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 22:37 MidKnight wrote:On January 25 2012 22:04 Equity213 wrote:
Ten shots is excessive but you cant blame someone for not having perfect awareness in a life of death situation. That 30 seconds was probably a blurr of pure adrenaline, I doubt he even remember how many shots he fired. You cant get up in arms over that. Except that he's a police officer, not an amateur who can get carried away. What if a random person walked past the whole situation and lifted up his arm? Maybe that would trigger the "unload my whole clip into him" response too? They are supposed to neutralize a threat which they did perfectly fine after first 5 bullets. Suspect got blown away like 3 meters away from them and showed no more signs of aggression. The other 5 shots were shot before suspect could realistically fall down to the ground due to gravity from the initial shots, yes, THAT'S how fast he decided to shoot the 2nd burst. There was no pause, it was basically a "OH MY GOD I DONT WANNA DIIEE NOOOO, DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM" kind of reaction, which a person who's supposed to be trained for these kind of situations shouldn't have. I mean, yeah, it's not that big of a deal in the end, but to say that this is how cops are supposed to react (whenever someone shows a sign of aggression, shoot enough bullers until the target, well, dies) is simply ridiculous. There are a lot of situations like this where it's perfectly justifiable to finish the suspect off before he can retaliate (long range weapon, people in close proximity etc.). But this is the perfect example where that line is crossed just because a cop got scared (which is obviously understandable) and didn't keep his cool. Police officers are human and are not immune to "fight or flight." The suspect raised a weapon at his partner, and the officer defended him. Also, if said random person walks up to the officer with a weapon and raises his arm carrying a weapon, yes. It deserves the same reaction. Normal people know not to raise weapons to officers or anyone for that matter.
That is perfectly understandable. The 2nd series of shots, however, were performed by the officer who was threatened and it looked very much like a revenge induced "How DARE you threaten me" type of reaction.
It is understandable, emotions run high in these type of situations, it's likely they never shot at a person before etc. etc., sure, but it definitely wasn't necessary and I'm sure that no one would say that this is how you are supposed to deal with situations like this ideally.
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Should not have watched that video in the tag at the top of the thread -.-. Regardless after watching it I believe it justifies what the police man in the OP did.
Besides emotions run high in these situations and you often don't think and just rely on natural instints.
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The cops showed incompetence by getting into the situation. If the cops had been acting correctly, none would be killed. I mean, stepping close to someone with a large crowbar while having your arms in your pockets, not even looking at him?
incompetence.
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I do have to say my gut reaction was "they just murdered that dude"
However I can see an argument for firing on him in the position they were in, but I blame them for being way too close to a guy with only a melee weapon. They had him outnumbered and outmanned. There were many ways out of the situation if they would've just given him room.
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe...
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On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
I do have to say my gut reaction was "they just murdered that dude"
However I can see an argument for firing on him in the position they were in, but I blame them for being way too close to a guy with only a melee weapon. They had him outnumbered and outmanned. There were many ways out of the situation if they would've just given him room.
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe...
Of course you can die from a melee weapon, what world do you live in? Also with them keeping the distance, he didn't really show any sign of stopping. If they had kept their distance do you really think he would have stopped?
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On January 25 2012 20:19 UisTehSux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 20:05 Ballistixz wrote:On January 25 2012 20:02 Saryph wrote:On January 25 2012 19:58 Tobberoth wrote:
I guess there's a cultural difference. In Sweden, police are trained to NOT shot to kill unless it's necessary, which is why we have almost no lethal shootings in Sweden where a cop kills a criminal. In a situation such as in this video, I'm sure a swedish cop would have shot the suspect in the leg. How can this work? Because in Sweden, it's extremely rare that a criminal will be carrying a gun, so I don't think there's as much pressure to "put the threat down immediately" as there is in the US where everyone and their mother owns at least 2 guns, 1 shotgun and 5 bazookas. And what happens if the police officer missed the leg (very likely) and got his head bashed in with the crowbar? Or shooting him in the leg did nothing, if you remember he was still standing after being tasered in the face, and after being shot five times in the chest? like i keep constantly saying, that wouldnt have happened if the cops simply kept there distance and been more cautios. they walked up to the suspect very non-chalantly as if he wasnt a threat. and what happens next? well the vid tells u what happened next. How do you know everything about this situation and the person who was shot? How do you know that it "wouldn't have happened if the cops simply..."? You don't. Why are you commenting in here like you know exactly what should have happened and what would have happened if what you are saying was done? You don't know!
really ppl... use your head for one second.
since the cop got close he was in battering/melee range of a crowbar... A CROWBAR. this is not a ranged weapon like a gun or something. this is a MELEE weapon which means have to be CLOSE to someone if ur going to use it as a "deadly weapon". now what does COMMON SENSE tell you to do? get close to the guy so he can pottentially smash ur skull in? or stay a safe distance away from him?
seriously think about that. there was another vid of a guy wielding a katana (much more deadly then a crowbar in terms of melee weapons) and the cops kept there distance from the guy. similiar situations but completely diffrent outcomes because caution was used.
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On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him.
Do you realize what you are saying?
Wait a minute, I cant believe what I'm reading, lets recap, this guy, obviously under coke or PCP (no reaction to being tazed on the face), doesnt have a gun. It means that he cant kill anything once stopped or handicaped by a shot to the leg / knee / arm / shoulder.
So we agree, this cop shot to kill, 5 times at first, then 5 other times, to EXECUTE a man, no trial, no nothing. He executed him, and you live in a fucking democracy?
Second, it was the COPS MISTAKE to get too close to an hostile suspect with a melee weapon, both of them could have kept their distance and shot him even once in the shoulder, the cop fired 5 shots in less than 4 seconds, which means he couldnt have any precision about his shots at that rate, he wanted to kill that man, and from the look of it, he did in cold blood, he didnt panic, he simply executed him.
For swinging at this partner? No, this isnt justice, this isnt their job, and thats even without talking about the 5 finishing shots, like 5 9mm shots to the chest at close range wasnt enough. How could you even know that this guy wasnt a little thug on PCP? PCP is a drug that can make people into paranoia, rage states, and prevent them from feeling any pain, seems to be fitting here, you really approve an execution like that? Man, you make me laugh on State of the game, but I never realized how dumb you could be, and yeah, I'll probably get banned for calling you dumb, but seing that as a normal thing, you just watched the execution of a 22 years old man, because it was an execution, and you react like that? It's pathetic, and disgusting, I dont know how there could even be a debate on weither they should have killed him or not, the answer is no, by all standards.
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On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
I do have to say my gut reaction was "they just murdered that dude"
However I can see an argument for firing on him in the position they were in, but I blame them for being way too close to a guy with only a melee weapon. They had him outnumbered and outmanned. There were many ways out of the situation if they would've just given him room.
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe...
I'm rather astonished you'd say no adult is going to die from a melee weapon.
First, that thing appears to have an edge. Second, there's also a grown man wielding that weapon. Third, saying "he won't die" seems to lack empathy for the cop's situation. He just tried to stun the man and it didn't work. So he should just bear the brunt of a grown man striking him with the weapon? It looks like it's made of metal. A swing at the cops head and he's likely to have a fractured skull.
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On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
I do have to say my gut reaction was "they just murdered that dude"
However I can see an argument for firing on him in the position they were in, but I blame them for being way too close to a guy with only a melee weapon. They had him outnumbered and outmanned. There were many ways out of the situation if they would've just given him room.
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe...
This isn't Skyrim dude...
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On January 25 2012 23:57 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Do you realize what you are saying? Wait a minute, I cant believe what I'm reading, lets recap, this guy, obviously under coke or PCP (no reaction to being tazed on the face), doesnt have a gun. It means that he cant kill anything once stopped or handicaped by a shot to the leg / knee / arm / should. So we agree, this cop shot to kill, 5 times at first, then 5 other times, to EXECUTE a man, no trial, no nothing. He executed him, and you live in a fucking democracy? Second, it was the COPS MISTAKE to get too close to an hostile suspect with a short ranged weapon, both of them could have kept their distance and shout him even once in the shoulder, the cop fired 5 shots in less than 4 seconds, he wanted to kill that man, and from the look of it, he did in cold blood, he didnt panic, he simply executed him. For swinging at this partner? No, this isnt justice, this isnt their job, and that even without talking about the 5 finishing shots, like 5 9mm shots to the chest at close range wasnt enough. How could you even know that this guy wasnt a little thug on PCP? PCP is a drug that can make people into paranoia, rage states, and prevent them from feeling any pain, seems to be fitting here, you really approve an execution like that? Man, you make me laugh on State of the game, but I never realized how dumb you could be, and yeah, I'll probably get banned for calling him dumb, but seing that as a normal thing, you just assisted to the execution of a 22 years old man, because it was an execution, and you react like that? It's pathetic, and disgusting, I dont know how there could even be a debate on weither they should have killed him or not, the answer is no, by all standards.
Why does it mean he can't kill anything when shot in the arm/leg/ or knee? Especially if hes on PCP? The guy was still standing after 5 shots to the chest! What if he had started swinging right as the first shot at his leg was fired? Even if the shot hit there's absolutely no guarantee that would stop him.
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On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe...
lol yes u can. a weapon is called a weapon for a reason. a human being can be killed by hitting them repeatedly accorss the head with a xbox or something. anything can be used as a weapon to kill someone with enough effort, including a plastic bag or a rock.
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On January 25 2012 23:57 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Do you realize what you are saying? Wait a minute, I cant believe what I'm reading, lets recap, this guy, obviously under coke or PCP (no reaction to being tazed on the face), doesnt have a gun. It means that he cant kill anything once stopped or handicaped by a shot to the leg / knee / arm / shoulder. So we agree, this cop shot to kill, 5 times at first, then 5 other times, to EXECUTE a man, no trial, no nothing. He executed him, and you live in a fucking democracy? Second, it was the COPS MISTAKE to get too close to an hostile suspect with a short ranged weapon, both of them could have kept their distance and shout him even once in the shoulder, the cop fired 5 shots in less than 4 seconds, he wanted to kill that man, and from the look of it, he did in cold blood, he didnt panic, he simply executed him. For swinging at this partner? No, this isnt justice, this isnt their job, and that even without talking about the 5 finishing shots, like 5 9mm shots to the chest at close range wasnt enough. How could you even know that this guy wasnt a little thug on PCP? PCP is a drug that can make people into paranoia, rage states, and prevent them from feeling any pain, seems to be fitting here, you really approve an execution like that? Man, you make me laugh on State of the game, but I never realized how dumb you could be, and yeah, I'll probably get banned for calling him dumb, but seing that as a normal thing, you just watched the execution of a 22 years old man, because it was an execution, and you react like that? It's pathetic, and disgusting, I dont know how there could even be a debate on weither they should have killed him or not, the answer is no, by all standards.
Actually we live in a republic.
And yes. If a man is high on PCP or coke and is swinging at people, he should be shot immediately, without a trial. It's called self-defense.
The man was executed by his own choice. *He* turned around and raised the weapon to the officer.
Now would I liked to have the man live? Of course. Though threatening the officer, if he could be neutralized and live, that'd be optimal. But the man turned around with a gun already drawn toward him and after a tazor didn't work.
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On January 26 2012 00:02 klaxen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:57 mahO wrote:On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Do you realize what you are saying? Wait a minute, I cant believe what I'm reading, lets recap, this guy, obviously under coke or PCP (no reaction to being tazed on the face), doesnt have a gun. It means that he cant kill anything once stopped or handicaped by a shot to the leg / knee / arm / should. So we agree, this cop shot to kill, 5 times at first, then 5 other times, to EXECUTE a man, no trial, no nothing. He executed him, and you live in a fucking democracy? Second, it was the COPS MISTAKE to get too close to an hostile suspect with a short ranged weapon, both of them could have kept their distance and shout him even once in the shoulder, the cop fired 5 shots in less than 4 seconds, he wanted to kill that man, and from the look of it, he did in cold blood, he didnt panic, he simply executed him. For swinging at this partner? No, this isnt justice, this isnt their job, and that even without talking about the 5 finishing shots, like 5 9mm shots to the chest at close range wasnt enough. How could you even know that this guy wasnt a little thug on PCP? PCP is a drug that can make people into paranoia, rage states, and prevent them from feeling any pain, seems to be fitting here, you really approve an execution like that? Man, you make me laugh on State of the game, but I never realized how dumb you could be, and yeah, I'll probably get banned for calling him dumb, but seing that as a normal thing, you just assisted to the execution of a 22 years old man, because it was an execution, and you react like that? It's pathetic, and disgusting, I dont know how there could even be a debate on weither they should have killed him or not, the answer is no, by all standards. Why does it mean he can't kill anything when shot in the arm/leg/ or knee? Especially if hes on PCP? What if he had started swinging right as the first shot at his leg was fired? Even if the shot hit there's absolutely no guarantee that would stop him.
He didnt even take the chance, he killed him right away because what, his partner was retarded enough to get close to the guy? Oh lets kill him, too bad you were so close Mike! And no, even under pcp, one shot to the shoulder or even chest, the guy wouldnt hit right away, the fact is, I could understand somewhat if the cop seemed scared for his partner and emptied his gun in panic, but he didnt, he killed him like a pro, you take a swing at a cop, there is your trial, 10 bullets to the chest, done
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On January 25 2012 23:55 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
I do have to say my gut reaction was "they just murdered that dude"
However I can see an argument for firing on him in the position they were in, but I blame them for being way too close to a guy with only a melee weapon. They had him outnumbered and outmanned. There were many ways out of the situation if they would've just given him room.
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe... Of course you can die from a melee weapon, what world do you live in? Also with them keeping the distance, he didn't really show any sign of stopping. If they had kept their distance do you really think he would have stopped?
Not one hit with a blunt object. That was my point. If he ACTUALLY swung at the cop then you fire. It's a pipe.
And of course it's deadly if you let him wail on the cop 10x or more... that's why he's outmanned to begin with..
Step back, contain him, keep him away from bystanders, and call for backup and nonlethal weapons if needed.
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People think when someone comes at you with a deadly weapon, you'll just whip out your pistol, aim for their legs, and everything will be fine? I know this is a forum mainly for a videro game, but many of you seem to be out of touch with reality.
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On January 26 2012 00:04 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe... lol yes u can. a weapon is called a weapon for a reason. a human being can be killed by hitting them repeatedly accorss the head with a xbox or something. anything can be used as a weapon to kill someone with enough effort, including a plastic bag or a rock.
That's why there's a second guy with a gun on him, so he gets at most one swing. Thanks for making my point.
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On January 26 2012 00:09 jungsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 00:04 Ballistixz wrote:On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe... lol yes u can. a weapon is called a weapon for a reason. a human being can be killed by hitting them repeatedly accorss the head with a xbox or something. anything can be used as a weapon to kill someone with enough effort, including a plastic bag or a rock. That's why there's a second guy with a gun on him, so he gets at most one swing. Thanks for making my point.
One swing if hit in the right place and with enough force is enough to kill or severly injure a man.
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On January 26 2012 00:07 jungsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 23:55 nam nam wrote:On January 25 2012 23:50 jungsu wrote:
I do have to say my gut reaction was "they just murdered that dude"
However I can see an argument for firing on him in the position they were in, but I blame them for being way too close to a guy with only a melee weapon. They had him outnumbered and outmanned. There were many ways out of the situation if they would've just given him room.
And honestly any adult is not going to die from one hit of a melee weapon, unless it's a sword or axe... Of course you can die from a melee weapon, what world do you live in? Also with them keeping the distance, he didn't really show any sign of stopping. If they had kept their distance do you really think he would have stopped? Not one hit with a blunt object. That was my point. If he ACTUALLY swung at the cop then you fire. It's a pipe. And of course it's deadly if you let him wail on the cop 10x or more... that's why he's outmanned to begin with.. Step back, contain him, keep him away from bystanders, and call for backup and nonlethal weapons if needed.
Do you have any idea what damage a single hit from a blunt object can make? You can easily fracture the skull with enough force, you can severely damage the trachea and cause suffocation etc etc. There are tons of ways you can fatally injure someone with a single lucky hit from a blunt weapon.
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On January 26 2012 00:02 klaxen wrote:
What if he had started swinging right as the first shot at his leg was fired? Even if the shot hit there's absolutely no guarantee that would stop him.
After five shots the guy was AT LEAST 3 meters away from anyone else, far out of reach of his melee weapon. Heck, the guy was probably not even in melee range at the moment of the first shot, but since it's a bit hard to tell, let's just assume he was.
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