If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action.
Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident.
On January 25 2012 22:04 Equity213 wrote: Ten shots is excessive but you cant blame someone for not having perfect awareness in a life of death situation. That 30 seconds was probably a blurr of pure adrenaline, I doubt he even remember how many shots he fired. You cant get up in arms over that.
Except that he's a police officer, not an amateur who can get carried away. What if a random person walked past the whole situation and lifted up his arm? Maybe that would trigger the "unload my whole clip into him" response too?
They are supposed to neutralize a threat which they did perfectly fine after first 5 bullets. Suspect got blown away like 3 meters away from them and showed no more signs of aggression. The other 5 shots were shot before suspect could realistically fall down to the ground due to gravity from the initial shots, yes, THAT'S how fast he decided to shoot the 2nd burst. There was no pause, it was basically a "OH MY GOD I DONT WANNA DIIEE NOOOO, DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM" kind of reaction, which a person who's supposed to be trained for these kind of situations shouldn't have. I mean, yeah, it's not that big of a deal in the end, but to say that this is how cops are supposed to react (whenever someone shows a sign of aggression, shoot enough bullers until the target, well, dies) is simply ridiculous.
There are a lot of situations like this where it's perfectly justifiable to finish the suspect off before he can retaliate (long range weapon, people in close proximity etc.). But this is the perfect example where that line is crossed just because a cop got scared (which is obviously understandable) and didn't keep his cool.
Police officers are human and are not immune to "fight or flight." The suspect raised a weapon at his partner, and the officer defended him.
Also, if said random person walks up to the officer with a weapon and raises his arm carrying a weapon, yes. It deserves the same reaction. Normal people know not to raise weapons to officers or anyone for that matter.
Assume for a second that the guy thats weaving crowbar at you is drugged. Heavily drugged guy might not be able to feel pain, in whitch case you have to use so much force that the body simply stops working, whitch can be hard with small arms. Whether or not he was is irrelevant when sitsuation escalates fast and you actually fight someone to death. All you think about is your training and actually surviving your self.
On January 25 2012 22:43 Hittomogasin wrote: Assume for a second that the guy thats weaving crowbar at you is drugged. Heavily drugged guy might not be able to feel pain, in whitch case you have to use so much force that the body simply stops working, whitch can be hard with small arms. Whether or not he was is irrelevant when sitsuation escalates fast and you actually fight someone to death. All you think about is your training and actually surviving your self.
This is actually a great point. The officer who was threatened tried to taze the suspect and the suspect just shrugged it off and turned on him. I'm pretty sure that had to register with the officer with the gun drawn.
On January 25 2012 16:39 mTw|NarutO wrote: Serious question: Are policemen in the US trained to shoot at the torso, because policemen in Germany for example are not. They are trained to hit legs/arms to not kill the target but make it immobile.
I have a hard time believing that... You're much more likely to miss if you aim for anything else the center of the body. How many times have you seen a target with a human silouhette have bullseyes on the arms ? I've had a bit of police and military training in France and were also taught to shoot in the torso.
If you want to kill the target. Completely unnesseccary in the case the video shows if you ask me. Also launching 6++ shots into the target is not more but murder. After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Edit: to the top admin-text. The guy that was a weapon instructor said the target was not going down after the first hit, he was already falling back and dropping to the ground, you can clearly see that. There was no need to shoot more than twice at best. Also I don't see a crowbar, I see a shovel which is less harmful and deadly I would at least rate it like that.
On January 25 2012 05:16 Caryc wrote: why not shoot him in his fucking legs? wtf..
I don't think shooting him in the leg will stop him from swinging the crowbar with his arms, but you might be right in that they should have aimed for another part of his body to avoid killing him.
Eh no you don't do that. Police always aim where they are most likely to hit, which is the torso. This isn't hollywood. The only thing you can argue about is the number of shots.
1st-sfod can put many rounds down range vs moving targets irl... never needed to be hollywood...
On January 25 2012 16:39 mTw|NarutO wrote: Serious question: Are policemen in the US trained to shoot at the torso, because policemen in Germany for example are not. They are trained to hit legs/arms to not kill the target but make it immobile.
I have a hard time believing that... You're much more likely to miss if you aim for anything else the center of the body. How many times have you seen a target with a human silouhette have bullseyes on the arms ? I've had a bit of police and military training in France and were also taught to shoot in the torso.
If you want to kill the target. Completely unnesseccary in the case the video shows if you ask me. Also launching 6++ shots into the target is not more but murder. After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Except he was still standing after the first five. So clearly you're wrong on only one bullet being needed.
On January 25 2012 22:55 mTw|NarutO wrote: . After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Did you not see the video posted at the top where the guy is shot in the stomach and continues to slowly kill that officer? Also, the guy had just gotten tazed in the face to no effect.
On January 25 2012 22:55 mTw|NarutO wrote: . After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Did you not see the video posted at the top where the guy is shot in the stomach and continues to slowly kill that officer? Also, the guy had just gotten tazed in the face to no effect.
Its a different video. Watch the one in the opening posts. He stumbles back... or is about to fall back from the first 2 maximum. The X other shots just add to that...
Also do you know that you do not immediately realize the hit? Could he killed the officer after being shot twice? Most likely not. Could the officer just back out from the threat? Yes. After the first 2 shots both could have backed up a little.
I'm not saying the officer did wrong, I just think a person died when it was not neccessary.
I don't really see what's to discuss really. That guy basically asked for it. You don't fucking try to hit / threaten a cop pointing a gun at you with such a weapon. That's sucide. Especially in the US.
There was nothing wrong wit the actions taken by the police. They attempted to taze the man, however he did not respond. The suspect was clearly high on some sort of drug and would not react the way a normal person would. When the suspect came closer to the officers, they had no choice but to shoot. Those policemen did the right thing in protecting themselves.
On January 25 2012 22:55 mTw|NarutO wrote: . After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Did you not see the video posted at the top where the guy is shot in the stomach and continues to slowly kill that officer? Also, the guy had just gotten tazed in the face to no effect.
To be fair, being tazed isn't just a matter of pain tolerance. It causes over 90% of the muscles in your body to spasm. That's an involuntary contraction of almost every muscle in your body. I've been tazed before and yes it hurts, but that's not what dropped me. Clearly this suspect wasn't tazed properly and should not in any way be a justification for the 10 bullets in his stomach.
To those of you that think it's simply a matter of being drugged or badass enough to deal with it, here's a video of a 200+ pound marine. note: look at his knees, ankles, elbows, shoulders, and neck. That's not a reaction to pain. That's a reaction to electricity coursing through your body.
guys wtf are you talking about. Srsly. I have police journalists and politicians. But generaly when someone is POINTING A GUN AT YOUR FACE you dont go hit him with a hammer OR YOU WILL GET SHOT. So this guy clearly was stupid or thought meh police wont shoot unless i attack first. Now does it matter if the polcie shot one bullet or ten? No. Should he have attacked his legs you say? I dont think this guy was aiming for the cops legs so why would the cop shoot his legs? So to sum up. You have two police officers telling you to lower your weapon and surrender. You dont do that but instead you rush towards them going for an attack. Outcome= you are dead. Simple. STFU now already with the retarded comments oh my god
On January 25 2012 22:22 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Only in the states. I'm pretty sure somethin like that nearly never happens in Germany. Probably even never at all. And our crime rates are still way lower than in the states. Something is wrong.
I have to agree with this. I read a lot of pages in this thread, and most US people are defending the cops, while those who are not from US are against their actions. This just shows how different the US mentality is from the rest of the world.
On January 25 2012 22:22 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Only in the states. I'm pretty sure somethin like that nearly never happens in Germany. Probably even never at all. And our crime rates are still way lower than in the states. Something is wrong.
I have to agree with this. I read a lot of pages in this thread, and most US people are defending the cops, while those who are not from US are against their actions. This just shows how different the US mentality is from the rest of the world.
Not necessarily. Take into consideration how much easier it is in the US to acquire a firearm. In western europe you would not expect a person in a similar situation to have a gun. In the US the police do expect that you might have a concealed firearm. It makes quite the difference in how you act in a situation like this when you can expect that the guy has a gun.
On January 25 2012 22:22 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Only in the states. I'm pretty sure somethin like that nearly never happens in Germany. Probably even never at all. And our crime rates are still way lower than in the states. Something is wrong.
I have to agree with this. I read a lot of pages in this thread, and most US people are defending the cops, while those who are not from US are against their actions. This just shows how different the US mentality is from the rest of the world.
On January 25 2012 22:22 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Only in the states. I'm pretty sure somethin like that nearly never happens in Germany. Probably even never at all. And our crime rates are still way lower than in the states. Something is wrong.
I have to agree with this. I read a lot of pages in this thread, and most US people are defending the cops, while those who are not from US are against their actions. This just shows how different the US mentality is from the rest of the world.
I mean, you could also argue that our police act differently because of the much much higher crime rate and that the crime rate is really due to our social/fiscal policies and heterogenous culture. That's getting into another whole 100 page TL thread.
On January 25 2012 22:55 mTw|NarutO wrote: . After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Did you not see the video posted at the top where the guy is shot in the stomach and continues to slowly kill that officer? Also, the guy had just gotten tazed in the face to no effect.
To be fair, being tazed isn't just a matter of pain tolerance. It causes over 90% of the muscles in your body to spasm. That's an involuntary contraction of almost every muscle in your body. I've been tazed before and yes it hurts, but that's not what dropped me. Clearly this suspect wasn't tazed properly and should not in any way be a justification for the 10 bullets in his stomach.
To those of you that think it's simply a matter of being drugged or badass enough to deal with it, here's a video of a 200+ pound marine. note: look at his knees, ankles, elbows, shoulders, and neck. That's not a reaction to pain. That's a reaction to electricity coursing through your body. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqVj17XCbOU
Yup, more evidence these cops were not properly trained and prepared.
On January 25 2012 22:55 mTw|NarutO wrote: . After the first hit he would have went straight to the ground.
Did you not see the video posted at the top where the guy is shot in the stomach and continues to slowly kill that officer? Also, the guy had just gotten tazed in the face to no effect.
Its a different video. Watch the one in the opening posts. He stumbles back... or is about to fall back from the first 2 maximum. The X other shots just add to that...
Also do you know that you do not immediately realize the hit? Could he killed the officer after being shot twice? Most likely not. Could the officer just back out from the threat? Yes. After the first 2 shots both could have backed up a little.
I'm not saying the officer did wrong, I just think a person died when it was not neccessary.
"Most likely not?"
I don't care if it's a 99% chance that the guy can't get up or can't reach around and pull out a pistol. You assume it's the 1% and shoot until he isn't a threat.
There's a ton of people saying he should "look at how he's falling" or "look at how his arms are poised, he wasn't going to hit him!" The cop wasn't thinking about any of that. He was thinking about the impending death of his partner and neutralizing the threat.
It lies entirely on the fault of the perp with the crowbar. If he didn't want to die yesterday, he probably shouldn't have attacked a police officer.
On January 25 2012 23:07 Voldron wrote: guys wtf are you talking about. Srsly. I have police journalists and politicians. But generaly when someone is POINTING A GUN AT YOUR FACE you dont go hit him with a hammer OR YOU WILL GET SHOT. So this guy clearly was stupid or thought meh police wont shoot unless i attack first. Now does it matter if the polcie shot one bullet or ten? No. Should he have attacked his legs you say? I dont think this guy was aiming for the cops legs so why would the cop shoot his legs? So to sum up. You have two police officers telling you to lower your weapon and surrender. You dont do that but instead you rush towards them going for an attack. Outcome= you are dead. Simple. STFU now already with the retarded comments oh my god
I agree. In the States, that's what you expect. In Canada, the cops would've given him a Tim Hortons GC and then they would've had a coffee together. In Britain, Big Man would've come and got the guy out of there before he was a threat.
EPT
