EPTSuspect with crowbar killed by police - Page 54
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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING: The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Pleiades
United States472 Posts
EDIT: I forgot to mention, they also use canine units to locate drugs or dangerous objects too. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:35 Curu wrote: And if he had a gun hidden in his pockets? What if they searched his body or backpack and found a gun, would that make you feel any different about it? Imagine he gets scared and pulls it out and kills an officer and possibly some civilians. Do the officers know if he has a gun? No. But do they know he doesn't? Nope. Even if only 1 in 100 of these cases is carrying firearms, 100 dead criminals insane enough to charge an officer/civilian with a weapon is worth preventing 1 innocent civilian or officer casualty. Still, If he had a gun, send the dog. WHILE pointing the gun at him. Therefore, if he reaches for his pockets the slightest, that justifies the shooting. | ||
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
If someone was about to hit MY partner with a crowbar I would shoot their ass too. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1354 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:43 Campfire wrote: People please think about the shows we have seen with people fully prepared to take a tazer shot (i.e. Jackass, Nitro Circus). This man shruged of a tazer shot (WTF) who does this. My thought would be a drug abuser of some kind probably a meth addict. Have you seen meth addicts THEY DONT GO DOWN. Having this information i cannot rightfully blame the officer. You may say well there were several officers on scene why couldn't they overwelm him or use non lethal force. Did you see the size of that weapon? A single blow to anyone of those officers could lead to death. Soooooooo lets see Possible drugged full grown man with a "Lethal" Weapon and there supposed to what jump on him and hope to God that he doesn't have the guts to swing the weapon when hes been breaking windows in a public place. Im sorry if anyone is offended by anything said in this post but plz take into consideration the points i have made and what they mean before you quote my post and rage at me for being a barbarian Thank You On January 25 2012 21:11 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: As for the taser to the face, thats not how tasers work. Yes tasers do cause alot of pain, but thats not the primary reason why it incapitates someone. This is why he was able to ignore the taser to the face, because in that case the current will travel only around the face, it may make your facial muscles distort and hurt a hell of alot, but it will not incapacitate you the way a taser is supposed to (eg neuromuscular incapacitation ). No amount of standard narcotics is going to make you immune to a taser. There might be drugs that can do it, but people aren't going to be using them to get high. He was wearing thick clothing, taser to the face is just alot of pain, pain =/= incapacitation. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
I assumed he was talking about making use of the dog before they tried to taser him since they couldn't really make use of it after they tried to since he was dead 5 seconds later. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:11 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Shooting at the legs is rarely a good option, it is a smaller target, cops are not trained to do it, and bullets may easily ricochet off the ground. Since when are cops not trained to shoot in the leg? This, together with all the "cops are trained to shoot to kill" makes me wonder how different countries laws are. Police should be trained to shoot to disable, MILITARY PERSONEL are supposed to be trained to shoot to kill. Shooting in the leg is standard procedure in the swedish police force, it surprises me greatly that it wouldn't be in the US or Australia. | ||
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thoraxe
United States1449 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/2e/2e9b3b9c-32da-4e03-94a9-9ecf2348dca2_300.jpg) | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:51 zeru wrote: Hell no. Why would you want to save that man by trading the dogs life? What is wrong with you. He gave up right to live when he attacked. That's also not how k9s are used. Read the post in the thread top and inform yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306001¤tpage=14#263 He gave up the right to live? are you stupid? He had not hurt anybody yet, he had a single crowbar. and yes I'd trade a dogs life for a human one any day. Except if the person involved had hurt another person in a was that justifies the loss of a human life. But I dont live in the US, things are rougher there, but I still feel like he should have sent the dog, (the dog might have survived perfectly fine.) then gone to jail, maybe that guy after been to prison a few years would acomplish something great? Not saying he would, but even if he wont, he gave up the right to live? I'm sad for you | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1354 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:54 Tobberoth wrote: Since when are cops not trained to shoot in the leg? This, together with all the "cops are trained to shoot to kill" makes me wonder how different countries laws are. Police should be trained to shoot to disable, MILITARY PERSONEL are supposed to be trained to shoot to kill. Shooting in the leg is standard procedure in the swedish police force, it surprises me greatly that it wouldn't be in the US or Australia. Well our officers are trained not to use guns at all, but if they do pull one out, they are trained to kill, not incapacitate. That said, I myself have said that the sheer number of bullets fired was probably excessive, but if you read my previous posts about the US gun laws, you will see I merely consider this case par for the course in the US, but yes, if this happened in Australia it would be extremely suprising, even if our policemen are also trained to shoot only to kill. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:50 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Also, you wouldnt sacrifice a dog for a human life? It could have saved the man. which is probably the most cost effective way to use it. Would I rather have a K9 that fights crime or a lunatic that creates crime? I'll have to think that one over. K9's are viewed as fellow police officers. Not some filthy animal whose life you put in danger because god forbid the criminal decides to suicide by cop. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17850 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:47 BlackJack wrote: Those dogs are very expensive to train. Sending it in to fight a guy with a weapon has to be the least cost-effective way to use them when you haven't even tried to taser him yet. You would not believe what this dogs are capable of. It's nigh-impossible to win a fight with an untrained dog, even when armed with baseball bat or something of the sorts (actually, the bigger the weapon, the worse you are against a dog). K9 unit dogs are trained to take down suspects with guns hiding behind obstacles far away, guy with a 2-handed cudgel standing 2 feet away from the dog is of no risk to the dog. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:59 zeru wrote: He attacked the police with a deadly weapon, yes he gave up his right to live. You will die if you try to do that, which is why in most cases criminals DONT attack the police like he did. Well he was still drugged, Do you know how he got drugged? did he take it himself? somebody gave it to him? NO you dont. Which is why saying he gave up the right to live is a unsympathic, idiotic and ignorant way to discuss a serious discussion which cost a man his life. On January 25 2012 22:00 Manit0u wrote: You would not believe what this dogs are capable of. It's nigh-impossible to win a fight with an untrained dog, even when armed with baseball bat or something of the sorts (actually, the bigger the weapon, the worse you are against a dog). K9 unit dogs are trained to take down suspects with guns hiding behind obstacles far away, guy with a 2-handed cudgel standing 2 feet away from the dog is of no risk to the dog. also this ^ | ||
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ChinaRestaurant
Austria324 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:59 zeru wrote: He attacked the police with a deadly weapon, yes he gave up his right to live. You will die if you try to do that, which is why in most cases criminals DONT attack the police like he did. Giving up the right to live and being harmed in order to assure you are no threat arent the same thing. On thing can take place without the other you know? | ||
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rckY
Germany116 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote: excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. seriously? We aren't in stoneage man. A cop should be trained to resolve such a situation without killing the suspect especially when he has a partner with him. And your statement should sound like if a cop ever shoots its to stop the suspect from bringing harm to others, but not to kill him. There was no reason to kill that guy but the bloodlust of that cop from what the pictures say. | ||
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Traeon
Austria366 Posts
On January 25 2012 21:59 zeru wrote: He attacked the police with a deadly weapon, yes he gave up his right to live. Maybe in an alternate reality. At no point in the video is he actually attacking a cop And the ONLY reason he could actually have attacked is because the cops were stupid and even downright inviting an aggression. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1354 Posts
On January 25 2012 22:00 Manit0u wrote: You would not believe what this dogs are capable of. It's nigh-impossible to win a fight with an untrained dog, even when armed with baseball bat or something of the sorts (actually, the bigger the weapon, the worse you are against a dog). K9 unit dogs are trained to take down suspects with guns hiding behind obstacles far away, guy with a 2-handed cudgel standing 2 feet away from the dog is of no risk to the dog. Basically you just have to understand, that the ratio of value between the life of anyone threatening a cop(even a police dog, which are treated as officers) and the life of the officers themselves is very very low in the US. Which is also why they then shot him 5 times, and very few people inside the states are even batting an eye. I don't pretend to condone it, but the fact of the matter is they would rather kill someone with 100% certainty than risk a even small risk to the policemen in this situation. | ||
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
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