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On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know.
That wasn't very civil now was it?
Would you say that Afghanistan is civilised? I may not be able to tell what something is but still tell what it is not.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks  I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek.
Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions.
It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner.
Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20)
That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love.
Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you.
The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few.
I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person".
If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved.
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On November 24 2011 11:23 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 10:15 Roe wrote:
Ooh, another "cool atheist kid".
that's a good argument to counter his, right?
decentralized tribal conflict, politics, poverty, and drugs
those are all created by religion So all along, we were so fucking stupid not to fight over resources, but religion? I mean, I am fine with people saying people use religion to do evil which is what I am sure you actually mean but still... Political turmoil and poverty was very prevalent in Soviet Russia. There were Gulags and Stalin killed 11 million of his people. Pol Pot killed 1/4 of his population. Such political turmoil was not caused by religion.
we're talking about afghanistan here aren't we?
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see we shouldn't even talk about those places
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:33 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:23 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 00:05 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:28 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:14 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:42 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
[quote]So then CaptainCrush, what is your solution? Tell those countries Shari'a laws are wrong? Good luck. Good luck as a Dhimmi who has somehow subverted his position in their ideal islamic society and oppressed the Righteous muslims (for muslims see white people as a collective, as an entire Christian kingdom which has subjugated the muslim world for a long time). You most likely are not Christian (95% of TL-ers are not bible believing Christians). But they see you as one. And they think you're just dirt. You will be destroyed in the end. Muslims are taught from young that Islam and Allah are the truth. Everything else is false, lesser and demonic. Allah will destroy all the pigs (Jews and ChristiansWhite people) in the end. : )) Welcome to Islam
You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. Let me ask you my friend 3 questions: 1. Have you known for yourself by reading the gospels, Jesus the God-man who came to save us? 2.Would the Jesus of the Gospels (God Himself come to earth) be happy with the Catholic church? (Or any church which is so filled with hate, bigotry, corruption and godlessness) 3. Have you met a genuine follower of Jesus Christ and seen the love of Jesus in him? (I know Sweden is currently <1% Bible-believing/practicing Christian) 1) Reading and studying religious texts is part of the general education of everyone in Denmark, so yes I have. 2) not for me to say, but probably not 3)Yes, they knock on my door occasionally but usually leave when I explain I don't believe in magic My question for you would then be, why clang on to the 'Christian' tag? The basic Christian message has a lot to offer and the world would probably be a better place if more people lived by that. But then just call it a philosophy. Just say that you are a nice person or a friendly and loving person. If you insist those teachings comes directly from god you are only setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecesary dificulties. Not to mention that from the belief in an omnipotent god follows the fact that he must be the guy personally killing thousands in Tsunamies when he's not busy giving aids to babies in Africa. Also next time you see him tell him "fuck you" from me for inventing the flu virus. That shit gets me every year. Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : ((((((( I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin. Since no one else ever tought me correctly, will you tell me why God™ created the HIV virus then? Seems quite contradictory to this whole "cares for you" thing Hi Vorenius, I've spoilered the response because it is too long. For the classic netizens who want a TL:DR this is it: God created the world, and it was good (Gen 1-2). There was no death, no suffering, no sin, no shame. And then sin came. How? Through the fall (Gen 3). HIV? God did not create sin. Man did. God did not intend for sin to be part of His creation. He created it good. Man chose to wreck it. There are plenty of viruses which have wreaked havoc on humanity. The world is broken. The creation is groaning under the corruption of sin. The creation itself eagerly awaits renewal (Romans ch8). God will renew all things and sin and suffering will be done away with. + Show Spoiler +
The fundamentals of Christian faith can be summed up in this:
Creation -- The Fall -- The consequences of the fall through human history -- The first coming of Christ, His death and resurrection -- the spread of his kingdom on earth through the gospel of love -- His second coming.
The HIV virus enters the world stage at the level of "the fall". Reading Genesis chapters 1-3 will cover the very most fundamental truths of the Christian faith.
Genesis 1: God created the world in six days. He proclaims "And it was very good". There was no evil. And creation itself was just as God wanted it to be. Man and Woman were created in the image of the Triune God. We are special. We are like God. And it's pretty awesome.
Genesis 2:
Adam and Eve were living under the authority of God, provided by God with food, water and work. Adam and Eve were to propagate and rule over this beautiful earth which God has created for them and their descendants. They were going to live forever and rule this earth forever. But God gave them everything and permitted all fruits to be eaten in this bountiful garden. Bar one. This specific tree you are not to eat from, God tells them. Why? "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Simple right? So we thought. And Satan drives a wedge of mistrust between Adam, Eve and God. And they disobey God. Disobedience towards authority is sin. Not just any authority, but God who richly provided them with everything and breathed life into their nostrils.
Thus knowing the consequences (for God had told them earlier if they ate from this tree they will surely die), Man suffered the curse. Genesis ch3 then goes on and describes suffering, pain and death entering mankind. Diseases, decay and even natural disasters entered. Animals began to eat other animals. Pain and suffering entered when before the fall, there was only goodness.
HIV virus is just another example of the suffering which humanity and the ENTIRE creation is plagued with because of the sin of man in disobeying God. The consequences were clear: if you ate from that tree (when there were plenty of other sweet fruits to eat from), then you will die. Unfortunately they did and suffering entered the entire creation.
But there is hope for renewal and God has already begun it at the cross where Jesus overcame death. The new heavens and new earth are coming, as well as the final judgement when all evil will be punished and a perfect, sinless world will be restored with Man rightfully ruling it under God.
Fairytale or Truth? Your life is going to go for another 80 years at max (I assume TL-ers are 20 years old). You're going to find out one way or another. My appeal to all of you is to find out about the Loving God who came to earth as a Man, to be ridiculed by those He came to save. Find out about Jesus, the Christ. Learn the love of God for mankind and repent from your ways. We are all evil before God, but He is not a unforgiving judge. Forgiveness and freedom stands at the door.
Pretty shitty deal that we get shafted because Adam and Eve fucked up. Deuteronomy 24:16 notwithstanding? Adam and Eve screwed up just as you would have screwed up. I never doubted that if I was tempted by the Serpent, I wouldn't have done the same. Sin lies around the corner and it's desire is to dominate us.
To be honest, I see the world and it's brokenness, and read the biblical account of why it was so, and I agree. However, the bible does not specifically state in no uncertain terms, why God was willing to suffer so much estrangement from His children for such a long time, knowing before He even created man, that Man would be too weak to follow Him completely in the garden. There was no sin in the garden initially, but Man was tempted by Satan and he fell. Then the next question one must ask is: God - Why let Satan continue to exist? Why didn't you just lay the full smack-down on satan when he rebelled against you? Why let him roam the earth and tempt people? The non-biblical answer which we speculate, is that in allowing Satan to continue to wreak havoc on humanity, perhaps man will not take God for granted, but see that God is indeed the only good in this universe. This is not stated specifically in the bible, but this is why we suspect God is allowing Satan to wreak havoc for a little longer.
The good news is that God did not leave us helpless - for Jesus has already come and paid for our sins. He will come again soon - and all sin will be destroyed then. Satan will be punished for good, evil men who submitted to Satan and not to God will as well. Creation will be made new into perfection. God will walk with His people Amen!
Now Deut 24:16 - Let me ask you Elegy: Do you think you're sinful? Have you disobeyed God in any way since you were born?
I tell you that God will not judge you by your Father's sin - for each is responsible for their own sin. But you have sinned and God will judge you by your own account. Each man is responsible for his own account before God.
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That story sounded like something from my favorite Christian site, Landover Baptist Church lol (satirical Christians who take the word of the Bible to its logical conclusion- founder was expelled from Liberty University).
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16536
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On November 24 2011 14:49 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek. Show nested quote +Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner. Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20) That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love. Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you. The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few. I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person". If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved.
And when is Jesus going to return again?
Your scripture says "this generation" at the time of John, yes?
Guess that one fell short.
St. Peter’s Apocalypse?
St. Paul’s Apocalypse?
Pseudo-Methodius?
Tiburtine Sybil?
Adso, Joachim, Hildegard, St. Francis? Word of God too, or just really chill dudes? Peter John Olivi, Salimbene, Glaber? Augustine?
Come on. Claiming the Bible is the Word of God incarnate shows nothing more than a weak understanding of how the Good Book was compiled and conveniently avoids all the other texts excluded from it by nothing more than slim majorities and communal decision.
On November 24 2011 15:02 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:33 Elegy wrote:On November 24 2011 00:23 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 00:05 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:28 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:14 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:
[quote]
You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. Let me ask you my friend 3 questions: 1. Have you known for yourself by reading the gospels, Jesus the God-man who came to save us? 2.Would the Jesus of the Gospels (God Himself come to earth) be happy with the Catholic church? (Or any church which is so filled with hate, bigotry, corruption and godlessness) 3. Have you met a genuine follower of Jesus Christ and seen the love of Jesus in him? (I know Sweden is currently <1% Bible-believing/practicing Christian) 1) Reading and studying religious texts is part of the general education of everyone in Denmark, so yes I have. 2) not for me to say, but probably not 3)Yes, they knock on my door occasionally but usually leave when I explain I don't believe in magic My question for you would then be, why clang on to the 'Christian' tag? The basic Christian message has a lot to offer and the world would probably be a better place if more people lived by that. But then just call it a philosophy. Just say that you are a nice person or a friendly and loving person. If you insist those teachings comes directly from god you are only setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecesary dificulties. Not to mention that from the belief in an omnipotent god follows the fact that he must be the guy personally killing thousands in Tsunamies when he's not busy giving aids to babies in Africa. Also next time you see him tell him "fuck you" from me for inventing the flu virus. That shit gets me every year. Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : ((((((( I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin. Since no one else ever tought me correctly, will you tell me why God™ created the HIV virus then? Seems quite contradictory to this whole "cares for you" thing Hi Vorenius, I've spoilered the response because it is too long. For the classic netizens who want a TL:DR this is it: God created the world, and it was good (Gen 1-2). There was no death, no suffering, no sin, no shame. And then sin came. How? Through the fall (Gen 3). HIV? God did not create sin. Man did. God did not intend for sin to be part of His creation. He created it good. Man chose to wreck it. There are plenty of viruses which have wreaked havoc on humanity. The world is broken. The creation is groaning under the corruption of sin. The creation itself eagerly awaits renewal (Romans ch8). God will renew all things and sin and suffering will be done away with. + Show Spoiler +
The fundamentals of Christian faith can be summed up in this:
Creation -- The Fall -- The consequences of the fall through human history -- The first coming of Christ, His death and resurrection -- the spread of his kingdom on earth through the gospel of love -- His second coming.
The HIV virus enters the world stage at the level of "the fall". Reading Genesis chapters 1-3 will cover the very most fundamental truths of the Christian faith.
Genesis 1: God created the world in six days. He proclaims "And it was very good". There was no evil. And creation itself was just as God wanted it to be. Man and Woman were created in the image of the Triune God. We are special. We are like God. And it's pretty awesome.
Genesis 2:
Adam and Eve were living under the authority of God, provided by God with food, water and work. Adam and Eve were to propagate and rule over this beautiful earth which God has created for them and their descendants. They were going to live forever and rule this earth forever. But God gave them everything and permitted all fruits to be eaten in this bountiful garden. Bar one. This specific tree you are not to eat from, God tells them. Why? "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Simple right? So we thought. And Satan drives a wedge of mistrust between Adam, Eve and God. And they disobey God. Disobedience towards authority is sin. Not just any authority, but God who richly provided them with everything and breathed life into their nostrils.
Thus knowing the consequences (for God had told them earlier if they ate from this tree they will surely die), Man suffered the curse. Genesis ch3 then goes on and describes suffering, pain and death entering mankind. Diseases, decay and even natural disasters entered. Animals began to eat other animals. Pain and suffering entered when before the fall, there was only goodness.
HIV virus is just another example of the suffering which humanity and the ENTIRE creation is plagued with because of the sin of man in disobeying God. The consequences were clear: if you ate from that tree (when there were plenty of other sweet fruits to eat from), then you will die. Unfortunately they did and suffering entered the entire creation.
But there is hope for renewal and God has already begun it at the cross where Jesus overcame death. The new heavens and new earth are coming, as well as the final judgement when all evil will be punished and a perfect, sinless world will be restored with Man rightfully ruling it under God.
Fairytale or Truth? Your life is going to go for another 80 years at max (I assume TL-ers are 20 years old). You're going to find out one way or another. My appeal to all of you is to find out about the Loving God who came to earth as a Man, to be ridiculed by those He came to save. Find out about Jesus, the Christ. Learn the love of God for mankind and repent from your ways. We are all evil before God, but He is not a unforgiving judge. Forgiveness and freedom stands at the door.
Pretty shitty deal that we get shafted because Adam and Eve fucked up. Deuteronomy 24:16 notwithstanding? Adam and Eve screwed up just as you would have screwed up. I never doubted that if I was tempted by the Serpent, I wouldn't have done the same. Sin lies around the corner and it's desire is to dominate us. To be honest, I see the world and it's brokenness, and read the biblical account of why it was so, and I agree. However, the bible does not specifically state in no uncertain terms, why God was willing to suffer so much estrangement from His children for such a long time, knowing before He even created man, that Man would be too weak to follow Him completely in the garden. There was no sin in the garden initially, but Man was tempted by Satan and he fell. Then the next question one must ask is: God - Why let Satan continue to exist? Why did you just lay the full smack-down on satan when he rebelled against you? The non-biblical answer which we speculate, is that in allowing Satan to continue to wreak havoc on humanity, perhaps man will not take God for granted, but see that God is indeed the only good in this universe. The good news is that God did not leave us helpless - for Jesus has already come and paid for our sins. He will come again soon - and all sin will be destroyed then. Now Deut 24:16 - Let me ask you Elegy: Do you think you're sinful? Have you disobeyed God in any way since you were born? I tell you that God will not judge you by your Father's sin - for each is responsible for their own sin. But you have sinned and God will judge you by what your own account. Each man is responsible for his own account before God.
You missed the point.
Am I sinful? Because of the sins of my father I am. Have I disobeyed God? Sure. But everyone is a sinner, and each man is a sinner because God allowed it to be so, and because Adam and Eve chose to believe a talking snake over the supreme majesty of the Almighty. I have sinned because God has ordained it that Mankind are sinners.
And it is impossible for everyone to be saved, even if every single person on Earth repented fully and embraced Jesus. Revelations tells us the vast majority of the Earth will perish-- Revelations is the absolute truth, thus the vast majority of Earth's people will die in the Apocalypse. With that inevitable fact set in the fabric of the universe as the absolute unyielding truth, not everyone can be saved. If everyone could be saved, Revelations would be a false prophecy.
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On November 24 2011 14:49 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek. Show nested quote +Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner. Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20) That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love. Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you. The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few. I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person". If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved.
Thanks for the reply JesusOurSaviour.
I get what you are saying. I agree and disagree with some and most, but not to much as to warrant an extended discussion. What is important is that we can sift through the nuances of religious experience, as well as varieties, without ever feeling the moral urge to impose our superiority. But let me get a clarification on this particular line
Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved.
This is another of what I referred to as abstraction. I mean ontologically, how does this work? Isn't the very narrative of Christ itself the most instructive and direct guide to a Christian life - in a sense that if people just listen and understand hard enough, the life of Jesus Christ himself is a verbatim "How to be a Christian". Nothing less. Yet, as if people don't find it interesting enough, they subsume it with these "abstractions" that operate on quite a different epistemological assumptions - sin, salvation, redemption, etc.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 15:04 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 14:49 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner. Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20) That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love. Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you. The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few. I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person". If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved. And when is Jesus going to return again? Your scripture says "this generation" at the time of John, yes? Guess that one fell short. St. Peter’s Apocalypse? St. Paul’s Apocalypse? Pseudo-Methodius? Tiburtine Sybil? Adso, Joachim, Hildegard, St. Francis? Word of God too, or just really chill dudes? Peter John Olivi, Salimbene, Glaber? Augustine? Come on. Claiming the Bible is the Word of God incarnate shows nothing more than a weak understanding of how the Good Book was compiled and conveniently avoids all the other texts excluded from it by nothing more than slim majorities and communal decision. Never, I repeat, Never did Jesus claim or any other scripture claim that Jesus was going to come back BEFORE the first believers have fallen asleep. Please quote me the scriptural references and before you jump ahead, read the context.
Jesus promised that His second coming would be "like the lightning flashes from the east to the west" (paraphrased). It will be clear. And no one knows when, only the Father knows.
Regarding all the non-scriptural writings people have wrote, they obviously are wrong. Scripture is what we have at the moment:66 books of the bible. Any additions such as the pseudoepigraphs/apocrypha do not share the same theological teachings (or have errant teachings). Jesus told us to be ready because He will come as a "thief in the night". People will be "drinking and being merry" when all of a sudden the "flood" hits and sweeps away all as in the days of Noah.
Are you ready Elegy?
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On November 24 2011 15:11 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 15:04 Elegy wrote:On November 24 2011 14:49 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner. Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20) That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love. Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you. The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few. I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person". If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved. And when is Jesus going to return again? Your scripture says "this generation" at the time of John, yes? Guess that one fell short. St. Peter’s Apocalypse? St. Paul’s Apocalypse? Pseudo-Methodius? Tiburtine Sybil? Adso, Joachim, Hildegard, St. Francis? Word of God too, or just really chill dudes? Peter John Olivi, Salimbene, Glaber? Augustine? Come on. Claiming the Bible is the Word of God incarnate shows nothing more than a weak understanding of how the Good Book was compiled and conveniently avoids all the other texts excluded from it by nothing more than slim majorities and communal decision. Never, I repeat, Never did Jesus claim or any other scripture claim that Jesus was going to come back BEFORE the first believers have fallen asleep. Please quote me the scriptural references and before you jump ahead, read the context. Jesus promised that His second coming would be "like the lightning flashes from the east to the west" (paraphrased). It will be clear. And no one knows when, only the Father knows. Regarding all the non-scriptural writings people have wrote, they obviously are wrong. Scripture is what we have at the moment:66 books of the bible. Any additions such as the pseudoepigraphs/apocrypha do not share the same theological teachings (or have errant teachings). Jesus told us to be ready because He will come as a "thief in the night". People will be "drinking and being merry" when all of a sudden the "flood" hits and sweeps away all as in the days of Noah. Are you ready Elegy?
Matthew 24:..32? 34? One of those.
And you missed my point. Again.
Your scriptural writings were chosen by communal vote. Revelations was hotly contested as to whether it should be considered Scripture or not. Are you really ready to assume the absolute validity of that document when it came down to the wire and the decisions of men (flawed, sinful men) to make such monumental decisions on what the Word of God is?
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On November 24 2011 14:16 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. Civilized: Western Europe Australia Japan etc Uncivilized: Afghanistan Iran other theocracies that have super high death ratios and forced religions.
you have no clue about iran
well iran is not the best country but still much better then afghanistan saudi arabia syria and the rest of the middle east
except turky and maybe israel
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The mere existence of things such as the Muratorian fragment disprove JesusOurSaviour's points almost completely....
-e- oops, meant to update, not new post.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 15:11 Zvek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 14:49 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner. Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20) That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love. Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you. The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few. I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person". If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved. Thanks for the reply JesusOurSaviour. I get what you are saying. I agree and disagree with some and most, but not to much as to warrant an extended discussion. What is important is that we can sift through the nuances of religious experience, as well as varieties, without ever feeling the moral urge to impose our superiority. But let me get a clarification on this particular line Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved.This is another of what I referred to as abstraction. I mean ontologically, how does this work? Isn't the very narrative of Christ itself the most instructive and direct guide to a Christian life - in a sense that if people just listen and understand hard enough, the life of Jesus Christ himself is a verbatim "How to be a Christian". Nothing less. Yet, as if people don't find it interesting enough, they subsume it with these "abstractions" that operate on quite a different epistemological assumptions - sin, salvation, redemption, etc. Hi Zvek, indeed we do not impose anything on each other, for each has to answer to his own account.
You are right that the Life of Jesus is the definitive guide to how a Christian ought to live. One just has to read the gospels to be able to grasp most of how a Christian should live his life: loving God and loving man. However we must also remember that Jesus was the promised, prophesied messiah. Scripture is there so that we may eagerly await the messiah who was going to save us. He didn't just come to tell you how to live life. He came to judge the hypocrites, condemn the hardhearted, call us to repentance, to love us, to conquer death, to pay for our sins, to shed His blood and have His body broken for us. It is the ultimate act of loving sacrifice from God who wants to reconcile Himself to His people. Sin, Salvation, redemption, atonement, even predestination, and other "abstractions" as you would call them - are all part of God's overall truth, so these are mentioned and I guess... learned? when you read the word of God? (I cannot see any way of separating the life of Jesus from God's overall truth).
I mean if there was no sin and no judgement - why should I live like Jesus? I might as well submit to the flesh and plunge myself into the dissipation of sin. If there was no salvation, I would live my life in fleshly pleasures - after all, there's only one chance right? If there was no redemption, salvation, judgement for sin - then God would be a terribly unjust, unloving and unholy God. However He is none of that.
I feel I may have totally missed your point with what I wrote just then. I seem to be on a lower "metacognitive" level than you are 
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On November 24 2011 15:15 perser84 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 14:16 arbitrageur wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. Civilized: Western Europe Australia Japan etc Uncivilized: Afghanistan Iran other theocracies that have super high death ratios and forced religions. you have no clue about iran well iran is not the best country but still much better then afghanistan saudi arabia syria and the rest of the middle east except turky and maybe israel
Obviously arbitrageur has no clue about anything he is saying, that is why I ignored his reply, and you should ignore him too.
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On November 24 2011 15:25 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
I mean if there was no sin and no judgement - why should I live like Jesus? I might as well submit to the flesh and plunge myself into the dissipation of sin. If there was no salvation, I would live my life in fleshly pleasures - after all, there's only one chance right? If there was no redemption, salvation, judgement for sin - then God would be a terribly unjust, unloving and unholy God. However He is none of that.
I got you, loud and clear. Thanks.
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On November 24 2011 15:26 Zvek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 15:15 perser84 wrote:On November 24 2011 14:16 arbitrageur wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. Civilized: Western Europe Australia Japan etc Uncivilized: Afghanistan Iran other theocracies that have super high death ratios and forced religions. you have no clue about iran well iran is not the best country but still much better then afghanistan saudi arabia syria and the rest of the middle east except turky and maybe israel Obviously arbitrageur has no clue about anything he is saying, that is why I ignored his reply, and you should ignore him too.
do you have an answer to your own question, either?
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 15:13 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 15:11 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 15:04 Elegy wrote:On November 24 2011 14:49 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 24 2011 00:34 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this: 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes? Thanks a lot. Thanks for the clarification Zvek. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. It seems that you have made yourself quite friendly towards the oriental philosophies and utterly rejected the message of the one and true God in an a priori manner. Let me tell you: the bible is the word of God. It has all, I repeat, all the answers to life. It is not some backwards text written to trick people. It was written by 40 or so authors over 1500 years, recording God's word and His interaction with the people whom He loved and made in His image. It was not written so that man could interpret to his own gain. For " these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20) That is the purpose. That you may know the saviour of this world personally and then, live out the life to serve Him and your fellow mankind in love. Once again I repeat to all who are reading this: God is your Father, whether you choose to run away and waste away your life like the prodigal son, God is your Father and He will continue to love you. The problem here is our point of view I guess. You (and the rest of europe) have rejected the scriptures due to a variety of reasons; Catholic hypocrisy, state-institutionalised churches, liberalisation of the faith, materialism just to name a few. I am a Christian because after I read the gospels I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He has given me His holy Spirit to understand all scriptures. Those who are blinded and are unbelieving will always "see and do not perceive, hear and do not understand" (as was prophesied against the Jews of the day). Thus, the lost will always make up excuses to not even try to seek God. Common ones range from "Jesus is a myth" to "Religion is for making people feel communal" to " Religious people do bad things and I am a good person". If you think you are good, I guess you can always test your goodness before God when Jesus returns to judge and renew the world. But I assure you: believing in any human philosophy will get you nowhere. Humans are flawed. "there is nothing new under the sun". Indeed - no matter how hard we try, greed, lust, wars, dissensions, envy, strife, and all other destructive ways will always pursue every man to his deathbed. Thanks be to God who gave His son for us that we may no longer be enslaved. And when is Jesus going to return again? Your scripture says "this generation" at the time of John, yes? Guess that one fell short. St. Peter’s Apocalypse? St. Paul’s Apocalypse? Pseudo-Methodius? Tiburtine Sybil? Adso, Joachim, Hildegard, St. Francis? Word of God too, or just really chill dudes? Peter John Olivi, Salimbene, Glaber? Augustine? Come on. Claiming the Bible is the Word of God incarnate shows nothing more than a weak understanding of how the Good Book was compiled and conveniently avoids all the other texts excluded from it by nothing more than slim majorities and communal decision. Never, I repeat, Never did Jesus claim or any other scripture claim that Jesus was going to come back BEFORE the first believers have fallen asleep. Please quote me the scriptural references and before you jump ahead, read the context. Jesus promised that His second coming would be "like the lightning flashes from the east to the west" (paraphrased). It will be clear. And no one knows when, only the Father knows. Regarding all the non-scriptural writings people have wrote, they obviously are wrong. Scripture is what we have at the moment:66 books of the bible. Any additions such as the pseudoepigraphs/apocrypha do not share the same theological teachings (or have errant teachings). Jesus told us to be ready because He will come as a "thief in the night". People will be "drinking and being merry" when all of a sudden the "flood" hits and sweeps away all as in the days of Noah. Are you ready Elegy? Matthew 24:..32? 34? One of those. And you missed my point. Again. Your scriptural writings were chosen by communal vote. Revelations was hotly contested as to whether it should be considered Scripture or not. Are you really ready to assume the absolute validity of that document when it came down to the wire and the decisions of men (flawed, sinful men) to make such monumental decisions on what the Word of God is?
Are you really ready to assume the absolute validity of that document when it came down to the wire and the decisions of men (flawed, sinful men) to make such monumental decisions on what the Word of God is?
Yes I am. God is the creator of this universe. Everything, I repeat, ALL THINGS are in His plans.
Then I may ask you another question Elegy: Are you questioning that God was not powerful enough to speak to His people through the mouths of such broken peoples such as Moses? Jonah (jonah you bad boy!!)? That His Holy Spirit is a fake? All of the early church fathers who believed in the Lord Jesus had the Holy Spirit in them (just as any proper Christian does today). Are you then saying that God is not powerful enough to use His people to preserve and compile the scriptures which He wishes to keep as scripture?
That's only part one.
Part two: Have you read the writings which they "threw out"? I have begun to. And they are rubbish. Some teach sorcery. Some teach praying for the dead (hi catholics). All of them contradict the 66 books which we have right now. So though I was not present at the early church councils - I review their decisions and thank God that He put faithful men in place to do all this. I can assure you they have not made any mistakes in excluding some of the early rubbish which was circulated by false teachers. Satan lost in this case. Will Satan win in your life? Or will the love of Jesus overwhelm you?
Next: Matthew 24.
So you really think people would have continued believing in Christianity if Jesus supposedly claimed that He would come back before the early believers died? Man and all the faithful readers of scripture wouldn't have noticed what Jesus said and ONLY you noticed and apparently only you could see their folly?
Matthew Henry's bible commentary is a good place to start. But if you read Matthew 24 carefully, Jesus skirts the disciples questions. He never, ever, gives a definite time when He will come again to judge the world. He however prophesies that someone (Hi Antiochus Epiphanes) would desecrate the holy temple. He also tells of how he tore the temple down and will rebuild it (the body of believers being the new temple) in 3 days. Some theologians support the view that the "ultimate abomination" is to let one who is without sin (Jesus) be crucified in Jerusalem, with all the world's sin on Him.
No where and never did any of the disciples think that Jesus would definitely come back before they all died. John lived the longest and he never said nothing. Paul died in prison and never mentioned a word about "regret" or "shame" or any kind of doubting about why the Lord Jesus apparently didn't come back in time.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 15:31 Zvek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 15:25 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
I mean if there was no sin and no judgement - why should I live like Jesus? I might as well submit to the flesh and plunge myself into the dissipation of sin. If there was no salvation, I would live my life in fleshly pleasures - after all, there's only one chance right? If there was no redemption, salvation, judgement for sin - then God would be a terribly unjust, unloving and unholy God. However He is none of that. I got you, loud and clear. Thanks. No problems, let us rest then. I have to head out to a dinner soon, keep safe peeps!
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On November 24 2011 04:45 Ashworth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 04:40 Art.FeeL wrote:
I believe this has nothing to do with religion. It is a matter of culture. Bad nonetheless.
To the people mentioning Middle East learn you geography first. From when Afghanistan belongs to Middle East? Afghanistan is under Islamic law.
Who says that? You? Them? In the end it doesn't even matter. Bin Laden was declaring himself as a Muslim yet, things he did had nothing to do with Islam. Stop this generalization.
I live in the Middle East and have been coming here for 10+ years, so I know the attitude.
Stuff like this happens a fair bit, and it isn't too much to do with religion as it is the attitude of the people. There are some strictly religious based rulings made, for example, beating your wife is ok sometimes according to the religious law, althougth, and women being raped and it being 'their fault from bringing it on' is more just the attitude towards women, and not so much because their religion says it's ok.
This has to get a spotlight
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What the fuck is going on in this thread?
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