EPTBut seriously, this is disgusting. There is absolutely no logic in these laws - I can't believe that there is no "willing" within the law of having sex without being married. And to top it off, the man isn't even being charged? Also, people over there are so unsympathetic that if she marries her rapist in order to avoid 12 years in jail she will be shamed by her own family? What has this world come to (or parts of it)....
Raped, impregnated, then jailed - Page 14
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zakmaa
Canada525 Posts
But seriously, this is disgusting. There is absolutely no logic in these laws - I can't believe that there is no "willing" within the law of having sex without being married. And to top it off, the man isn't even being charged? Also, people over there are so unsympathetic that if she marries her rapist in order to avoid 12 years in jail she will be shamed by her own family? What has this world come to (or parts of it).... | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:59 FinestHour wrote: How long does she have to make up her mind? Shes fucked wither way though, i think stay in jail and keep family support is the better route Family honour is incredibly important in societies like Afghanistan. Her family most likely hates her at this point. This seems incredibly alien but the difference in culture is insane between people in Afghanistan and people here on TeamLiquid. Nobody on this forum could imagine feeling anything other then empathy for their sister if she was raped. It doesn't work like that in these societies. She has put disgrace on her family. The only thing women are expected to do in Afghanistan is not bring shame to their family. Hell we can't even understand how any of this would bring shame to her family but that is how they reason in those cultures. She shouldn't expect any sympathy from her family. As i said earlier, they probably hate her. | ||
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cocosoft
Sweden1068 Posts
On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote: What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground". Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men. Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. I... I don't even know... What are you trying to say? No matter how hard you try, you cannot deny that the woman got raped and then blamed for it (and that is not morally right) . It is almost as you're trying to defend the rapist. | ||
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dmgdnooc
Australia33 Posts
Seems to me a great shame that Judges can be so lacking in judgement as to be unable to discern a difference between what a person has done and what has been done to a person against their will. Not being a Muslim I can't be certain; but I thought that it would be perfectly obvious to someone who has read and meditated on the Quran that Allah does not take the sin of one (the rapist) and place it on another (the raped). The issue is then, to my mind, cultural and not religious. | ||
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
Maybe that's a bit insensitive, but it really seems the root of the problem to me. Law should be malleable and change with the society, but when you use strict religious law it ignores any practical changes that should have been made since that time. Its this sort of thing that scares me when I look how much religion pops up in American politics. | ||
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
On November 24 2011 05:12 zalz wrote: What in the... Even if that was the case, wich it isn't, she still doesn't belong in jail. What the fuck...seriously TL? There shouldn't even be one person advocating locking people up for cheating and now we have two? I have some concerns about the various assumptions the article and various posters seem to hold and how they take the woman's claim at face value. How do you know for certain it was not a false rape accusation? The article is dead silent about any kind of evidence - DNA samples, bruises, torn clothes, camera footage, witnesses, anything that would support her claim that she was indeed raped, as opposed to having consensual sex or no contact at all (no, her testimony worth exactly 0 in these kind of cases). If none of these are found or presented, presumption of innocence stands. Furthermore, if the police suspects she is lying due to inconsistencies in her testimony or she changes the latter to fit new evidence, then yes, she does belong in jail for bearing false witness in a criminal case, trying to ruin the life and reputation of an innocent, and wasting massive amounts of taxpayer money. For a comparison, it would be absurd if she accused someone of murder (despite the victim being alive and well) and got away scot-free, ready to repeat it again. It would create dangerous precedent to say the least. Bar a mistaken identity which I don't think is applicable in this case, there can be only two scenarios: 1) the man really raped her or 2) she made up the story for whatever mundane reasons like too many woman. Either way, one of them belongs in jail, for several years. The attitude of islam about rape (and in general) sucks yes, but I suspect there is more going on in the back stage than what we see, it smells like they tried to charge her for something else but could only managed this one, I've read about such occurences. If I'm mistaken, then the United States did a particularly crappy job at shooting up the country. But the US along with Sweden sucks even more when it comes to handling false rape accusations. Among others, presumption of innocence and due process dies first when a man is accused of sexual crimes. I actually prefer that aspect of islam where they need 4 witnesses in rape cases (sans with all the religious crap of course) instead of just taking the biased testimony of the alleged victim at face value, even in presence of contradicting evidence, often suppressed by district attorneys. Both are absurd, but the latter does much more damage. Oh right, this shit also happens in the United States. One example where the husband raped his wife, she divorced him, then she was forced to pay alimony for being higher paid. Another example is where a woman fucked an underage boy, which is legally statutory rape, got pregnant, and when he hit the 18 mark, was forced to provide child support or face jail where his debt would only accumulate forever. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On November 24 2011 08:04 Frigo wrote: I have some concerns about the various assumptions the article and various posters seem to hold and how they take the woman's claim at face value. How do you know for certain it was not a false rape accusation? The article is dead silent about any kind of evidence - DNA samples, bruises, torn clothes, camera footage, witnesses, anything that would support her claim that she was indeed raped, as opposed to having consensual sex or no contact at all (no, her testimony worth exactly 0 in these kind of cases). If none of these are found or presented, presumption of innocence stands. Furthermore, if the police suspects she is lying due to inconsistencies in her testimony or she changes the latter to fit new evidence, then yes, she does belong in jail for bearing false witness in a criminal case, trying to ruin the life and reputation of an innocent, and wasting massive amounts of taxpayer money. For a comparison, it would be absurd if she accused someone of murder (despite the victim being alive and well) and got away scot-free, ready to repeat it again. It would create dangerous precedent to say the least. Bar a mistaken identity which I don't think is applicable in this case, there can be only two scenarios: 1) the man really raped her or 2) she made up the story for whatever mundane reasons like too many woman. Either way, one of them belongs in jail, for several years. The attitude of islam about rape (and in general) sucks yes, but I suspect there is more going on in the back stage than what we see, it smells like they tried to charge her for something else but could only managed this one. If I'm mistaken, then the United States did a particularly crappy job at shooting up the country. But the US along with Sweden sucks even more when it comes to handling false rape accusations. Among others, presumption of innocence and due process dies first when a man is accused of sexual crimes. I actually prefer that aspect of islam where they need 4 witnesses in rape cases (sans with all the religious crap of course) instead of just taking the biased testimony of the alleged victim at face value, even in presence of contradicting evidence, often suppressed by district attorneys. Both are absurd, but the latter does much more damage. Oh right, this shit also happens in the United States. One example where the husband raped his wife, she divorced him, then she was forced to pay alimony for being higher paid. Another example is where a woman fucked an underage boy, which is legally statutory rape, got pregnant, and when he hit the 18 mark, was forced to provide child support or face jail where his debt would only accumulate forever. None of what you said changes the fact that under a strict interpretation of Afghan law, you can go to prison for being raped, which makes the rest of your post entirely moot. There's no point to speculating whether she faked it or not, because the case serves as an example of what CAN happen with a rape victim in Afghanistan. The fact that there are problems with the legal system in other countries doesn't make the Afghan case more just either, but at least over here it leads to a discussion on the legal system where it is perceived as a problem instead of being accepted as the norm. Also, requiring 4(!!!) witnesses for rape cases (which have to be male also) is utterly ridiculous, simply because most rapes happen without any witnesses at all. To require 4 witnesses is to effectively never prosecute anyone for rape ever again. And honestly, talking about DNA, bruises, torn clothes in a 2 year old case in a country that's closer to the stone age then the 21st century isn't exactly realistic. Not to mention that if you get raped in the Arab world in the first place, you have a better shot never coming forward then actually trying to get the perpetrator framed, which we should all agree on is a terrible starting position for victims. Trying to defend this particular part of the Afghan legal system is utterly ridiculous. There are moral absolutes and integrity of your own body is one of them. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:51 sheaRZerg wrote: This is what happens when you take your laws from a book written in the middle ages (or whenever the last major changes to the Quran took place) Maybe that's a bit insensitive, but it really seems the root of the problem to me. Law should be malleable and change with the society, but when you use strict religious law it ignores any practical changes that should have been made since that time. Its this sort of thing that scares me when I look how much religion pops up in American politics. Agree completly. Imposing laws based in the middle ages in a society without considering if these laws are actually just and/or moral is just strange. Not that i can relate to the culture in afghanistan, but i feel that the backlash of these countries are in part due to intelectual and cultural halts after the 1500s (In the middle ages i would argue that it was better to live in the middle east though). In addition, the fact that the west or anyone else have not reacted to these practises is horribly ignorant and outright imoral. Personally i think we need something like the nurnberg trials to make the people responsible pay for their crimes. No matter how different the culture is, one cannot with any rational moral thoughts justify a law that allows for the imprisonment when there is no will or action from the prisoner. The views on what is considered actions is quite different though. If i am not mistaken, muslims often believe that it is womens own fault for being raped because they dress tempting or something (thats what they say where i live at least, norway). Maybe the girl have showed her ancle or something :D to the guy in the past and therefore the legal system will put the guilt on the woman. This is still a quite flawed way of thinking since in most of the world men are able to controll themselfes when faced with hundreds of light dressed women all day, Maybe then it is just the public opinion that needs changes for the betterment of gender equality and globalisation(hmm). | ||
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote: `Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men. Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. On November 23 2011 20:43 DarkRise wrote: Although i would like to have a law that prosecute adultery here in US and not just get away with "divorce". Really?? divorce is now worse than jailing women for being raped?? What the fuck is wrong with people????? | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:51 sheaRZerg wrote: This is what happens when you take your laws from a book written in the middle ages (or whenever the last major changes to the Quran took place) Maybe that's a bit insensitive, but it really seems the root of the problem to me. Law should be malleable and change with the society, but when you use strict religious law it ignores any practical changes that should have been made since that time. Its this sort of thing that scares me when I look how much religion pops up in American politics. This is what happens when people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about, please go over the Quran and explain to me at any point without distorting context that any law interpreted makes it ok for women to be jailed for being rapes, Actually it is quite the contrary and any person raping a woman technically suffers very severe punishment, but the fact of the matter is the laws in place are set by people with politic's and power agenda's and that distorts everything. Easy scapegoat Quran is evil, Islam is evil. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the nature of society in the country, the same thing is pretty common where I am from, its pretty disgusting but the issues here are alot more complex than "omg what a savage society" "o noes they have no womens rights". Ofcourse that doesnt make it alright but condemning it is only the first step. Its very easy to call bad things bad without understanding why they happen. Lack of education, food, civic services, law and order. These things cause a society to degenerate. Religious or any other sort of corruption will only come to the fore in the absence of these. Now look at the US, they have all of these things and the best of them, yet you have issues of racism and bigotry. Heck you only let women vote sometime this century after hundreds of years. Its very easy to sit on a pedestal and criticize young countries that are put under the kosh marred by conflict and foreign intervention never letting them progress while allowing them to survive and be influenced by the dollars given by those with horrid interpretations of Islam (hint hint Saudi Arabia, guess where they get there $'s from) the Quran whatever you want to call it. Im not religious at all, the idea of religion is pretty unnecessary to me personally but that doesnt make religion a bad thing. But in all my years of studying its really just people make it a bad thing, and anything even something considered universally infallible as democracy can be a bad thing if corrupted. You are seeing it now just take a look at the republican primaries. The rot in theses societies is very deep and it isnt just limited to womens rights, its across the board in every aspect of their functioning. It will take a very long time and a very different approach to the current one but it doesnt matter because the current approach serves foreign interests. They arent there to change the society, thats to hard and time consuming. they have their own agendas to serve and it doesnt matter how its done as long as its easy which is fine. The modern european and American sensibility simply cannon fathom or process these things properly so the reasonable thing is to just condemn on an internet forum tell your friends and just assume everyone from there is like that, and they get whatevers coming to them. Kudos. On November 24 2011 08:23 Teoman wrote: The views on what is considered actions is quite different though. If i am not mistaken, muslims often believe that it is womens own fault for being raped because they dress tempting or something (thats what they say where i live at least, norway). Maybe the girl have showed her ancle or something :D to the guy in the past and therefore the legal system will put the guilt on the woman. yes you are quite mistaken, idiots believe this, calling them Muslim is like calling priests who rape little boys Christians, would you ? I wouldnt. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:51 sheaRZerg wrote: This is what happens when you take your laws from a book written in the middle ages (or whenever the last major changes to the Quran took place) Maybe that's a bit insensitive, but it really seems the root of the problem to me. Law should be malleable and change with the society, but when you use strict religious law it ignores any practical changes that should have been made since that time. Its this sort of thing that scares me when I look how much religion pops up in American politics. That's why the bulk of Muslim cultures combined religious law with secular and interpretive law (Madhabs or Kanun). Even in the early days of the Caliphates, schools of law wouldn't directly adhere to what was written in the Quran and Hadith - the texts pertaining to law were written extremely harsh, quite possibly to act as a powerful deterrent. Then, you get the more recent non-tolerant Muslim societies, which do things like this. | ||
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Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
On November 24 2011 08:31 s4life wrote: Really?? divorce is now worse than jailing women for being raped?? What the fuck is wrong with people????? When you start allowing people to act in any way they please because "thats their belief/thats their culture/etc..." you enter a very dangerous realm. I agree that laws pertaining to inconsequential things can very based on culture, but there needs to be a moral standard, so that those being mistreated in such a vile manner have someone to help them. If this news wasnt spread, and we allowed them to carry on, she would be silently subject to this unwarrented punishment. With the negative reaction to this event, there is the opportunity for pressure of pleasing the global community to aid this woman. Furthermore, when you allow people to treat others disgustingly based on their groups beliefs, when do you stop classifying people as groups, and when can you begin imposing basic morality on them? The fact is, the world is no longer isolated. Globalization has occured. We have advanced in many ways, and we realize that these archaic ideas are no longer appropriate. We need to work on making the world a better place for people, instead of sitting idley by and accepting this disgusting treatment of others because "its their culture". | ||
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On November 24 2011 08:52 Rebs wrote: This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the nature of society in the country, the same thing is pretty common where I am from, its pretty disgusting but the issues here are alot more complex than "omg what a savage society" This has everything to do with religion friend. Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs. The problem with these beliefs is that you don't need to explain them logically or rationally, it's a jump made in the dark to an even darker place... hopefully your society will someday outgrow religion, at least to the same degree western cultures did w.r.t. catholic religion in the middle ages. Edit: to the poster above me.. I think you misquoted me. | ||
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BarbieHsu
574 Posts
1. He is guilty of raping her, and 2. She is guilty of adultery at the same time? EDIT: brain fart, he hasn't been found guilty yet; article doesn't even seem to say that this offense is what he's in jail for. EDIT 2: It's implied though: CNN asked a spokesman for the prosecutor to comment on the case. The reply was that there were hundreds such cases and the office would need time to look into it. | ||
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BarbieHsu
574 Posts
On November 24 2011 09:28 s4life wrote: This has everything to do with religion friend. Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs. The problem with these beliefs is that you don't need to explain them logically or rationally, it's a jump made in the dark to an even darker place... hopefully your society will someday outgrow religion, at least to the same degree western cultures did w.r.t. catholic religion in the middle ages. Edit: to the poster above me.. I think you misquoted me. Ooh, another "cool atheist kid". Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs. This is true. But you're missing a logical link. People can do this because of religion; but is this a religious problem in this case, or a problem of decentralized tribal conflict, politics, poverty, and drugs? | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
Ooh, another "cool atheist kid". that's a good argument to counter his, right? decentralized tribal conflict, politics, poverty, and drugs those are all created by religion | ||
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10341 Posts
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Danger_Duck
Burkina Faso571 Posts
On November 23 2011 20:38 Gnial wrote: I know people, women's rights groups in particular, hate it when you "blame the victim". While that isn't my intention, I know that is how this is often construed: How do we know it was rape and not her having an affair? Upon reading more closely, he was in fact convicted of rape. And the incarceration of the victim is a regular practice, apparently, which is terrible. Dude, Shariah law is just that harsh. | ||
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Rafael
Venezuela182 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On November 24 2011 09:28 s4life wrote: This has everything to do with religion friend. Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs. The problem with these beliefs is that you don't need to explain them logically or rationally, it's a jump made in the dark to an even darker place... hopefully your society will someday outgrow religion, at least to the same degree western cultures did w.r.t. catholic religion in the middle ages. Edit: to the poster above me.. I think you misquoted me. Just bare in mind that correlation != causation. A religious person can do monstrous stuff for reasons other than religion. If it was as simple as "Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs." then you would expect that religious people are generally doing this more than non-religious. Well in societies that aren't stuck in the middle ages, I doubt this is the case. For example, this isn't possible in the US. Not because people are less religious but because people and society as a whole is more educated, structured and there is a robust system of law. People do monstrous things without religion. People do monstrous things with religion. It is how society deals with them that is different. It is easy to blame this stuff on religion, it just isn't always the cause. The fact that there are millions of muslims all over the world and this shit only happens in countries where societal structure has broken down, suggests to me that perhaps religion isn't the major cause for this behaviour. | ||
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