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On November 22 2011 04:54 Fontong wrote:
Interesting that this thread is aiming all their flak at the police and not the person who called in the police. Obviously if the police are called in to remove non-compliant lawbreakers there will be trouble of some sort.
If you really believe what OWS is saying, then the police are part of the 99% too. It just reeks of irony how most all posters in here are ignoring the Chancellor's role in this. Even funnier that the Chancellor's response completely directs responsibility away from herself. I'm sure people at UCD see this, but most people here are off the mark. The Chancellor had the option to allow the protests to continue, but decided to crack down on them. Police would have done nothing if not for her orders that the protesters be removed.
Come on people, give the police a break for once and focus on the real criminal. Someone in the upper echelon of society pitting the lower ones against each other? This is the real shame in my opinion. The police were not even particularly brutal in this case. The chancellor cannot even be bothered enough to take responsibility for sending the police out. I hate to say it again, but this situation is just rank with irony. Is the chancellor not supposed to be one of the most enlightened people at the university? That she is the one who ordered and instigated the entire topic of this thread is just unbelievable.
Actually, watching the Chancellors apology video, the police weren't supposed to remove a single student. Only equipment. I didn't see them unable to get out of the quad in the video. So, really, are the cops here not to blame for their actions? The chancellor didn't want a camp, and some students did take down their tents. They (the cops) were only there to remove equipment, and ended up spraying students in the face. Students that were just sitting there. So really, who is to blame here?
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I don't support (I don't think it's wrong, I take no opinion on) the #OWS movement.
I also think that the campus were perfectly justified in having police involvement, if nothing else but to oversee that nothing got out of hand.
That policeman should be fired, he is a disgrace to himself. Police are allowed to use acceptable force. Nonviolent people who could simply be dragged out of position do not require the force that was used. That is criminal use of force.
"If you don't move I'll shoot you"... does this need explanation?
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On November 22 2011 05:02 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:54 DigiGnar wrote:
Actually, we do know for a fact that the cops are on administrative leave. As per the plethora of news articles that have come from this single indecent.
Actually, we do know that the staff of UCDavis thought that what happened was no good. As that's the reason this investigation is going underway.
And yeah, I'm going crazy. Like those crazy whacky inflatable arm men outside of car dealerships. It's so unique how you can sense so much emotion from text over the internet. Right, but typically with administrative leave, they are still paid. Like I said, they are not being punished yet, just relieved of duty until they determine whether or not their actions were appropriate, they may or may not be punished then. And while the article says that the staff of UC Davis found it to be no good, Im sure it's not the "ENTIRE FUCKING staff" that you said it was.... I personally see this as a adult spanking... Some adults were doing something inappropriate, a cop told them to stop as per order of the chancellor, and they continued to anyways so they got sprayed. At the end of the day nothing but feelings were hurt and the protest was over. This was handled about as well as it could be and we still have people going crazy... not just here but nationally. I think that is more sad than anything that happened on campus the other day.
People are arguing that it wasn't handled as well as it could be. It certainly could have been handled much, much, better. There is no reason at all to use pepper spray on people who are not in any way threatening or dangerous. Pepper spray is supposed to be used to help incapacitate dangerous individuals, not to punish people for refusing to follow orders.
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I personally see this as a adult spanking... Some adults were doing something inappropriate, a cop told them to stop as per order of the chancellor, and they continued to anyways so they got sprayed. At the end of the day nothing but feelings were hurt and the protest was over. This was handled about as well as it could be and we still have people going crazy... not just here but nationally. I think that is more sad than anything that happened on campus the other day.
Nobody was hurt except for that girl who had an asthma attack there and then, the guy with nerve damage in his hands/wrists, the people with potential tissue damage from the pepper spray. Hint, coughing up blood isn't healthy either.
So where's the "nothing but feelings were hurt" ?
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The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too.
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Although I agree that pepper spray was a bad call, surrounding the police officers chanting "We will let you leave... if you let them go!" and "Set them free!" was a bad call too. Do not surround the police and demand them to do something. Even though it's not meant to be violent, it is an aggressive and threatening action by the students on the police.
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On November 22 2011 05:10 IMABUNNEH wrote:Show nested quote +
I personally see this as a adult spanking... Some adults were doing something inappropriate, a cop told them to stop as per order of the chancellor, and they continued to anyways so they got sprayed. At the end of the day nothing but feelings were hurt and the protest was over. This was handled about as well as it could be and we still have people going crazy... not just here but nationally. I think that is more sad than anything that happened on campus the other day.
Nobody was hurt except for that girl who had an asthma attack there and then, the guy with nerve damage in his hands/wrists, the people with potential tissue damage from the pepper spray. Hint, coughing up blood isn't healthy either. So where's the "nothing but feelings were hurt" ?
I think this is trumped up. The two people who were taken to the hospital were already released. Likely they were taken to the hospital becaues they felt like they were dying, which is exactly what pepper spray is intended to do. I can't speak about the guy whose wrist was hurt, but the rest of these people are going to be perfectly fine, some may just have sensitive skin and eyes for a while.
If the police had tried to remove them with brute force, I gaurentee that there would be many way more serious injuries.
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On November 22 2011 05:02 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:54 DigiGnar wrote:
Actually, we do know for a fact that the cops are on administrative leave. As per the plethora of news articles that have come from this single indecent.
Actually, we do know that the staff of UCDavis thought that what happened was no good. As that's the reason this investigation is going underway.
And yeah, I'm going crazy. Like those crazy whacky inflatable arm men outside of car dealerships. It's so unique how you can sense so much emotion from text over the internet. Right, but typically with administrative leave, they are still paid. Like I said, they are not being punished yet, just relieved of duty until they determine whether or not their actions were appropriate, they may or may not be punished then. And while the article says that the staff of UC Davis found it to be no good, Im sure it's not the "ENTIRE FUCKING staff" that you said it was.... I personally see this as a adult spanking... Some adults were doing something inappropriate, a cop told them to stop as per order of the chancellor, and they continued to anyways so they got sprayed. At the end of the day nothing but feelings were hurt and the protest was over. This was handled about as well as it could be and we still have people going crazy... not just here but nationally. I think that is more sad than anything that happened on campus the other day.
But typically? They were relieved of duty. Does that action not say something about the actions the cops took?
The staff at UCDavis, or the entire staff. Maybe I'm a little angry, just a bit, that this happened to people just fucking sitting there. Oh no, I care about my fellow man. But when the article states "staff of UCDavis", it means the staff. of. U.C.Davis. The staff that runs the university. It generalizes them all, so whether I say "entire fucking staff" or the article says "staff", it doesn't matter. The staff has been generalized, nor does it matter if one or two possible, remind you, possible opinions differ from the Chancellors.
Fact: Officers were placed on administrative leave and there is an investigation underway.
Fact: Chancellor has issued an apology, backed by the staff of UCDavis.
Now, about the cops telling them to stop... Stop what? They (cops) were there to remove equipment, not to tell them they weren't allowed to demonstrate. That's their constitutional right, and a right preserved by the school. So, again, what where they (students) doing wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_leave
Usually, an employee is placed on administrative leave when an allegation of misconduct is made against an employee, either by a co-worker, student or parent, a victim or police officer. During the leave, employers may investigate the situation before determining an appropriate course of action.
Note the word: MISCONDUCT. This isn't the same as paid leave, this is something different.
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On November 22 2011 05:14 Pleiades wrote:
Although I agree that pepper spray was a bad call, surrounding the police officers chanting "We will let you leave... if you let them go!" and "Set them free!" was a bad call too. Do not surround the police and demand them to do something. Even though it's not meant to be violent, it is an aggressive and threatening action by the students on the police.
We've already gone over this...
The police were not pepper spraying the people standing behind them. They were pepper spraying the students sitting on the ground. The claim that they felt threatened by the people sitting on the ground and not the people standing around them is ridiculous.
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On November 22 2011 05:11 couches wrote:
The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too.
Are you one of those people who goes over the speed limit then cry at the injustice of the system when you receive a ticket? If you're knowingly breaking a law then you should be ready for the consequences that entailed.
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On November 22 2011 05:17 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:11 couches wrote:
The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too. Are you one of those people who goes over the speed limit then cry at the injustice of the system when you receive a ticket? If you're knowingly breaking a law then you should be ready for the consequences that entailed.
What law were these students breaking? The cops were there to remove equipment, not students. Yet, they ended up spraying students in the face.
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On November 22 2011 05:07 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:02 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 22 2011 04:54 DigiGnar wrote:
Actually, we do know for a fact that the cops are on administrative leave. As per the plethora of news articles that have come from this single indecent.
Actually, we do know that the staff of UCDavis thought that what happened was no good. As that's the reason this investigation is going underway.
And yeah, I'm going crazy. Like those crazy whacky inflatable arm men outside of car dealerships. It's so unique how you can sense so much emotion from text over the internet. Right, but typically with administrative leave, they are still paid. Like I said, they are not being punished yet, just relieved of duty until they determine whether or not their actions were appropriate, they may or may not be punished then. And while the article says that the staff of UC Davis found it to be no good, Im sure it's not the "ENTIRE FUCKING staff" that you said it was.... I personally see this as a adult spanking... Some adults were doing something inappropriate, a cop told them to stop as per order of the chancellor, and they continued to anyways so they got sprayed. At the end of the day nothing but feelings were hurt and the protest was over. This was handled about as well as it could be and we still have people going crazy... not just here but nationally. I think that is more sad than anything that happened on campus the other day. People are arguing that it wasn't handled as well as it could be. It certainly could have been handled much, much, better. There is no reason at all to use pepper spray on people who are not in any way threatening or dangerous. Pepper spray is supposed to be used to help incapacitate dangerous individuals, not to punish people for refusing to follow orders.
Bingo. Pepper spray was way over the top and used inappropriately.
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On November 22 2011 05:17 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:11 couches wrote:
The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too. Are you one of those people who goes over the speed limit then cry at the injustice of the system when you receive a ticket? If you're knowingly breaking a law then you should be ready for the consequences that entailed.
The consequences for the students' actions were being arrested.
The consequences for a peaceful demonstration is NOT threats of being shot, followed by being pepper sprayed. Police can use that when they're threatened. Not when someone is sitting on the ground being probably as unthreatening as is humanly possible while still exercising their right to protest.
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Canada11370 Posts
On November 22 2011 05:17 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:11 couches wrote:
The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too. Are you one of those people who goes over the speed limit then cry at the injustice of the system when you receive a ticket? If you're knowingly breaking a law then you should be ready for the consequences that entailed.
Well, no but I would cry foul, if when I rolled down my window I was pepper sprayed in the face for speeding. That's vindictive and nothing to do with appropriate consequences nor deescalation. And that's the same deal I see here.
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On November 22 2011 05:19 DigiGnar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:17 XCetron wrote:On November 22 2011 05:11 couches wrote:
The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too. Are you one of those people who goes over the speed limit then cry at the injustice of the system when you receive a ticket? If you're knowingly breaking a law then you should be ready for the consequences that entailed. What law were these students breaking? The cops were there to remove equipment, not students. Yet, they ended up spraying students in the face.
Whether or not the students were breaking any law is irrelevant to his statement and mine.
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On November 22 2011 05:16 liberal wrote:
We've already gone over this...
The police were not pepper spraying the people standing behind them. They were pepper spraying the students sitting on the ground. The claim that they felt threatened by the people sitting on the ground and not the people standing around them is ridiculous.
You forget the point to what I'm saying. It's not about why they felt threatened, but it's about the crowd should never surround police and give them demands.
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On November 22 2011 05:21 IMABUNNEH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:17 XCetron wrote:On November 22 2011 05:11 couches wrote:
The amount of "it's the law" white knighting going on is making me sick.
I say if you've never broken the law yourself then you can be in a position to call these students out on it too. Are you one of those people who goes over the speed limit then cry at the injustice of the system when you receive a ticket? If you're knowingly breaking a law then you should be ready for the consequences that entailed. The consequences for the students' actions were being arrested. The consequences for a peaceful demonstration is NOT threats of being shot, followed by being pepper sprayed. Police can use that when they're threatened. Not when someone is sitting on the ground being probably as unthreatening as is humanly possible while still exercising their right to protest.
If its their right to protest then the consequences wouldn't be for them to be arrested.
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I don't understand how anyone can argue against the central point of contention that pepper-spraying non-violent protesters in this context is wrong. If the Chancellor is to be believed, the police weren't even called in to remove the protesters, just their camp equipment. How does the fact that what they did is technically legal and state-sanctioned have any bearing on the moral issue here? I hope I don't have to provide examples of the multitude of awful laws that have been in place across history and across the world. Apparently, these students were being clean, friendly and not obstructing foot traffic (before the police arrived, at least). People should not have to apply for a fucking permit to demonstrate; it defeats the entire purpose of the activity and gives the establishment the power to prevent your demonstration on a technicality (which they are apt to do as they are generally the target of the protests).
On November 22 2011 05:27 Pleiades wrote:
It's not about why they felt threatened, but it's about the crowd should never surround police and give them demands.
This I can agree with. The crowd supporting them was probably going too far.
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On November 22 2011 05:30 3clipse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:27 Pleiades wrote:
It's not about why they felt threatened, but it's about the crowd should never surround police and give them demands. This I can agree with. The crowd supporting them was probably going too far.
I'm not so sure... I mean these were hippies without weapons. I bet a crowd of 3 year olds would be more dangerous 
I kid, I kid.
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why not just...oh i dont know, arrest them? there's 10 kids and like 20 cops there, you SERIOUSLY tell me that trying to separate some tiny asian girl from her friend is going to be more harmful then pepper spraying her in the face?
I have a feeling this is all gonna get very, very bloody in the coming months/years
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EPT
