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On November 22 2011 02:47 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:38 Ungrateful wrote:On November 22 2011 02:37 slappy wrote:On November 22 2011 02:29 Ungrateful wrote:On November 22 2011 02:10 liberal wrote:On November 22 2011 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:49 SupLilSon wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. Regardless of how justified the actual protest is, this amount of force doesn't measure up to the threat the protestors were posing. Part of being involved in law enforcement is wielding a certain amount of force necessary to maintain the law and justice. But with that comes the great responsibility of using that power with discretion. If you mean to tell me that riot police wearing body armor couldn't move those students without using pepper spray or fearing for their safety, I'll call you a flat out liar. The riot police are there to prevent riots. The act of physical trying to move the people out of the way is what starts a riot. If you don't understand officer protocol and the fact that they have to follow orders, don't bother commenting. Call me a flat out liar, but I'll just call you flat out wrong. The flaw in this logic is that the pepper spray was very specifically directed towards the people sitting on the ground in a very unthreatening way. That small group of kids sitting on the ground aren't going to start a riot. The people standing behind the cops were clearly a bigger threat, and the cops barely even looked at them, much less sprayed them. Try again. Maybe because the people standing were not breaking a law? the protesters got permission to camp there for that night before by the lady in charge of the school and she called the cops to clear them out the next day... they were peacefully protesting. The guys sitting were disobeying the cops order (to move), they were not breaking any laws READ SOME FUCKIN SHIT BEFORE COMMENTING WTF do you people not understand. You CANNOT block a road or SIDEWALK. Do I have to spell it out for you? The reason this discussion is leading you nowhere is that you're discussing whether the cops were in the right in a strictly legal sense, whereas other people are questioning whether it was ethical to shoot pepper spray into a peaceful and harmless crowd.
If they refuse to do as instructed when breaking a law, yes, yes it ethical to shoot pepper spray at them/beat them if they continue to resist.
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On November 22 2011 02:59 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:50 Ungrateful wrote:On November 22 2011 02:47 hifriend wrote:On November 22 2011 02:38 Ungrateful wrote:On November 22 2011 02:37 slappy wrote:On November 22 2011 02:29 Ungrateful wrote:On November 22 2011 02:10 liberal wrote:On November 22 2011 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:49 SupLilSon wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. Regardless of how justified the actual protest is, this amount of force doesn't measure up to the threat the protestors were posing. Part of being involved in law enforcement is wielding a certain amount of force necessary to maintain the law and justice. But with that comes the great responsibility of using that power with discretion. If you mean to tell me that riot police wearing body armor couldn't move those students without using pepper spray or fearing for their safety, I'll call you a flat out liar. The riot police are there to prevent riots. The act of physical trying to move the people out of the way is what starts a riot. If you don't understand officer protocol and the fact that they have to follow orders, don't bother commenting. Call me a flat out liar, but I'll just call you flat out wrong. The flaw in this logic is that the pepper spray was very specifically directed towards the people sitting on the ground in a very unthreatening way. That small group of kids sitting on the ground aren't going to start a riot. The people standing behind the cops were clearly a bigger threat, and the cops barely even looked at them, much less sprayed them. Try again. Maybe because the people standing were not breaking a law? the protesters got permission to camp there for that night before by the lady in charge of the school and she called the cops to clear them out the next day... they were peacefully protesting. The guys sitting were disobeying the cops order (to move), they were not breaking any laws READ SOME FUCKIN SHIT BEFORE COMMENTING WTF do you people not understand. You CANNOT block a road or SIDEWALK. Do I have to spell it out for you? The reason this discussion is leading you nowhere is that you're discussing whether the cops were in the right in a strictly legal sense, whereas other people are questioning whether it was ethical to shoot pepper spray into a peaceful and harmless crowd. They are not peaceful and harmless if they are breaking the law. They were told to move and didn't so reasonable force was used Kind of a leap, don't you think?
No you can't create double standards or it will create a precedence where everyone will point fingers and say
"If they are allowed to block the sidewalks why can't I protest by laying down in the middle of a road."
Nobody is above the law.
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On November 22 2011 02:49 Pillage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:45 TheToast wrote:On November 21 2011 19:47 Falling wrote:
@The Toast
While it's great that the system works for many people, the fact that there is low voter turn-out in addition to protests, it seems that people are unhappy with how the system functions. Furthermore, you may not see the immediate use of protests, but I certainly see them at the very least as an important safety valve. Without it, you are pushing a lot of the issues underground and when they do arise, the outpouring could be far more violent. Violently suppressing it and Gingerich's derisive 'let them eat cake/ go home and take a bath' just makes things worse.
Protests do push the public discourse to start speaking about what the protests are about, even it is a negation of the protest. But at best, consistent protests can push politicians to ammend positions. Perhaps not enough for the protestors, but enough to stem it.
But what I don't understand is how people wish for protests do be this quiet little thing that when that government says stand, they stand; when the government says sit, they sit; and when the government says go home, they all go home. Protests are by their nature disruptive. And if it's peaceful disruption, there is no cause to escalate it to violent disruption with asymmetrical use of force. Remove them from where they are being disruptive and let's not have this 'they deserve to be pepper sprayed.' That's crowd control and there was nothing that needed controlling at the time- just removal.
I'm not necessarily criticizing the act of protesting and rallying, they can be useful political tools in certain circumstances. My point is about the Occupy Wallstreet group and the additional movements that have been spawned out of it. Protesting and camping out is by itself not going to achieve political goals. Yes, protests like these do gain public attention, however much of the media attention given to the Wallstreet protest has been generally negative. There have been dozens of stories in the media about drugs, sex, crime, and disorderly behavior at Zucotti park. Obviously, these people only represent one element of the protest and is not representative of all the people there. You can say this is unfair, but politics is all about controlling the rhetoric and controlling the message. A movement such as this has no means of controlling it's message, yes these Occupy movements have spokes people, but they are in no way able to control what the people on the ground are saying and doing. It's like a ship in a storm with no one at the helm. Inevitably, I have run into people trying to compare these movements with the US Civil Rights movement in the 1960s. However this movement was inherently different. With the Civil Rights movement you had a strong central leader who was able to control the rhetoric, and perhaps more importantly had such respect that he could control the actions of the people on the ground. The Occupy movement has no one like this. The Civil Rights protests also were part of a larger overall campaign. The protestors wanted to get beaten up by the police as the footage of this would inevitably end up on television in the northern half of the country; creating a sympathy with the Civil Rights movement that lead to votes, money, and manpower. This allowed the movement to fund legal battles, run stronger grassroots campaigns, and put more resources into future protests. The protests were only one part of the movement, an integral one yes, but only only one aspect to the political movement. In some ways the tea party uses this same format, and one of the reasons they have been so successful. Three years ago I went to the tax day tea party rally in Madison WI, which at the time turned out to be one of the largest such rallies in the country. The rally was not too different from a protest like we have seen on Wallstreet, a series of presenters and speakers hyping people up through sensationalist rhetoric. But what was really interesting, is when the rally concluded a group of volunteers went through the crowd handing out information packets with links to resources on how to run as a candidate, how to form a tea party group, and most importantly where to send money. The rally was used as a conduit to get people together and invested in the larger political movement. There's a reason the tea party is on the verge of surpassing the Republican National Committee in terms of fund raising and why so many very conservative candidates have been appearing on election ballets. Earlier this year I attended another tea party rally in Madison, this time Sarah Palin was the "headliner". While she is not the leader of the tea party (no one really is) she does qualify as a figure head for sure. She definetly has the respect of the people on the ground and is able to at the very least sway and influence the rhetoric of the movement in a certain direction. The Occupy movement has no one like this, again back to the ship lost in the storm analogy. Essentially, my point is that in the US system, if your actions are not raising money or supporting a candidate in some way, you are participating in a pointless activity. I realize some of these protests can help people deal with their frusteration and make them feel like they are "making a difference" but they are not. Imagine the impact of all the Occupy Wallstreet protesters had spent the last few weeks going door to door soliciting monetary donations or support for a candidate. They could get someone elected to Congress with that kind of time and man power. Protests can be an important political tool, but to make a real difference they have to be used withing the framework of a movement that can control the rhetoric and capitalize on public support. If not, they it is a waste of time. Derailing a little bit, but are you from Madison? I go to school here and I went to the same tax day rally that you mention in your post!
PM-ed. 
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Seems entirely reasonable to me. They formed a circle around the policemen and locked arms so they could not get out. What do you expect to happen? I am surprised they did not open fire with their rubber bullets.
Edit: and to all the people saying it was just a small group of people sitting there, it wasn't. There was an entire circle of people who linked arms around the police. If you go to the link of the interview with the pepper-sprayed "victim" you can see pictures of the circle around the police. Then the police only sprayed that small portion blocking the sidewalk. Entirely reasonable
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On November 22 2011 02:29 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:10 liberal wrote:On November 22 2011 02:01 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:49 SupLilSon wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. Regardless of how justified the actual protest is, this amount of force doesn't measure up to the threat the protestors were posing. Part of being involved in law enforcement is wielding a certain amount of force necessary to maintain the law and justice. But with that comes the great responsibility of using that power with discretion. If you mean to tell me that riot police wearing body armor couldn't move those students without using pepper spray or fearing for their safety, I'll call you a flat out liar. The riot police are there to prevent riots. The act of physical trying to move the people out of the way is what starts a riot. If you don't understand officer protocol and the fact that they have to follow orders, don't bother commenting. Call me a flat out liar, but I'll just call you flat out wrong. The flaw in this logic is that the pepper spray was very specifically directed towards the people sitting on the ground in a very unthreatening way. That small group of kids sitting on the ground aren't going to start a riot. The people standing behind the cops were clearly a bigger threat, and the cops barely even looked at them, much less sprayed them. Try again. Maybe because the people standing were not breaking a law?
Yay! Someone who actually gets it.
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On November 22 2011 02:09 blinken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:58 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:40 muse5187 wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. They are protesting the increase in tuition which has skyrocketed in the last decade. If you don't think police brutality includes walking up to people and spraying OC in directly into their eyes at point blank range I pray you never become a policeman. Not everyone's parents pay their tuition no matter what the cost. Lot's of people take out massive student loans to pay. My apologies for posting an partially ignorant comment, as I was unclear as to what they were protesting. But my original opinion stands. But you and others who disagree with the orders given to these officers act like pepper-spray was the first response plan. Let me repeat that the spraying of the students was not the result their occupation, it was the result of insubordination and refusal to cooperate with the officer's requests as they were in DIRECT violation of state law. Officers get paid to uphold the law. I'd never support police "brutality", but in this case they are doing their job. There's no way in hell that these officers or myself wanted this situation to get to this point, but at some time you will run out of options. They did unfortunately. Please... Pepper spraying students is despicable. Any good-hearted, common-sense bound person can see this. The person who made the call to use pepper spray is in a leadership position, a position of responsibility. This person needs to be able to make moral calls, and not just blindly follow what are clearly archaic laws. I mean, the argument they had to pepper spray these students because they were running out of options is repulsive to me. Some nearly insignificant, non-violent, non-obtrusive protest is such a massive breach of the law, that these officers were in such a panic they felt the need to spray and arrest them? Come on....
Don't start making shit up to create a defense. These officers were not in a "panic" and they did not take the impulsive action to use pepper spray on the students. These students were in violation of the law. They tried for a long while to get them to move along peacefully. The students REFUSED. They need to know that this was coming. The officers didn't panic. They were under ORDERS to remove the students. Peaceful negotiations were not working. Too bad for the idiots who thought they could sit there in violation of the law without consequence. It's called learning the hard way.
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On November 22 2011 03:40 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:09 blinken wrote:On November 22 2011 01:58 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:40 muse5187 wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. They are protesting the increase in tuition which has skyrocketed in the last decade. If you don't think police brutality includes walking up to people and spraying OC in directly into their eyes at point blank range I pray you never become a policeman. Not everyone's parents pay their tuition no matter what the cost. Lot's of people take out massive student loans to pay. My apologies for posting an partially ignorant comment, as I was unclear as to what they were protesting. But my original opinion stands. But you and others who disagree with the orders given to these officers act like pepper-spray was the first response plan. Let me repeat that the spraying of the students was not the result their occupation, it was the result of insubordination and refusal to cooperate with the officer's requests as they were in DIRECT violation of state law. Officers get paid to uphold the law. I'd never support police "brutality", but in this case they are doing their job. There's no way in hell that these officers or myself wanted this situation to get to this point, but at some time you will run out of options. They did unfortunately. Please... Pepper spraying students is despicable. Any good-hearted, common-sense bound person can see this. The person who made the call to use pepper spray is in a leadership position, a position of responsibility. This person needs to be able to make moral calls, and not just blindly follow what are clearly archaic laws. I mean, the argument they had to pepper spray these students because they were running out of options is repulsive to me. Some nearly insignificant, non-violent, non-obtrusive protest is such a massive breach of the law, that these officers were in such a panic they felt the need to spray and arrest them? Come on.... Don't start making shit up to create a defense. These officers were not in a "panic" and they did not take the impulsive action to use pepper spray on the students. These students were in violation of the law. They tried for a long while to get them to move along peacefully. The students REFUSED. They need to know that this was coming. The officers didn't panic. They were under ORDERS to remove the students. Peaceful negotiations were not working. Too bad for the idiots who thought they could sit there in violation of the law without consequence. It's called learning the hard way.
No, it's called assaulting kids because you're too lazy to just peel them apart from each other. Stop apologizing for cops assaulting people protesting peacefully, it's hard to watch.
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
Interlude:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Nl1T.jpg)
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On November 22 2011 03:40 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:09 blinken wrote:On November 22 2011 01:58 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:40 muse5187 wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. They are protesting the increase in tuition which has skyrocketed in the last decade. If you don't think police brutality includes walking up to people and spraying OC in directly into their eyes at point blank range I pray you never become a policeman. Not everyone's parents pay their tuition no matter what the cost. Lot's of people take out massive student loans to pay. My apologies for posting an partially ignorant comment, as I was unclear as to what they were protesting. But my original opinion stands. But you and others who disagree with the orders given to these officers act like pepper-spray was the first response plan. Let me repeat that the spraying of the students was not the result their occupation, it was the result of insubordination and refusal to cooperate with the officer's requests as they were in DIRECT violation of state law. Officers get paid to uphold the law. I'd never support police "brutality", but in this case they are doing their job. There's no way in hell that these officers or myself wanted this situation to get to this point, but at some time you will run out of options. They did unfortunately. Please... Pepper spraying students is despicable. Any good-hearted, common-sense bound person can see this. The person who made the call to use pepper spray is in a leadership position, a position of responsibility. This person needs to be able to make moral calls, and not just blindly follow what are clearly archaic laws. I mean, the argument they had to pepper spray these students because they were running out of options is repulsive to me. Some nearly insignificant, non-violent, non-obtrusive protest is such a massive breach of the law, that these officers were in such a panic they felt the need to spray and arrest them? Come on.... Don't start making shit up to create a defense. These officers were not in a "panic" and they did not take the impulsive action to use pepper spray on the students. These students were in violation of the law. They tried for a long while to get them to move along peacefully. The students REFUSED. They need to know that this was coming. The officers didn't panic. They were under ORDERS to remove the students. Peaceful negotiations were not working. Too bad for the idiots who thought they could sit there in violation of the law without consequence. It's called learning the hard way.
Yeah dumbass students. Might as well shoot them and rid society of their useless asses. I mean they break the law they should be prepared to get shot and beaten. This is America, land of the FREE.
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On November 22 2011 03:40 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:09 blinken wrote:On November 22 2011 01:58 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:40 muse5187 wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. They are protesting the increase in tuition which has skyrocketed in the last decade. If you don't think police brutality includes walking up to people and spraying OC in directly into their eyes at point blank range I pray you never become a policeman. Not everyone's parents pay their tuition no matter what the cost. Lot's of people take out massive student loans to pay. My apologies for posting an partially ignorant comment, as I was unclear as to what they were protesting. But my original opinion stands. But you and others who disagree with the orders given to these officers act like pepper-spray was the first response plan. Let me repeat that the spraying of the students was not the result their occupation, it was the result of insubordination and refusal to cooperate with the officer's requests as they were in DIRECT violation of state law. Officers get paid to uphold the law. I'd never support police "brutality", but in this case they are doing their job. There's no way in hell that these officers or myself wanted this situation to get to this point, but at some time you will run out of options. They did unfortunately. Please... Pepper spraying students is despicable. Any good-hearted, common-sense bound person can see this. The person who made the call to use pepper spray is in a leadership position, a position of responsibility. This person needs to be able to make moral calls, and not just blindly follow what are clearly archaic laws. I mean, the argument they had to pepper spray these students because they were running out of options is repulsive to me. Some nearly insignificant, non-violent, non-obtrusive protest is such a massive breach of the law, that these officers were in such a panic they felt the need to spray and arrest them? Come on.... Don't start making shit up to create a defense. These officers were not in a "panic" and they did not take the impulsive action to use pepper spray on the students. These students were in violation of the law. They tried for a long while to get them to move along peacefully. The students REFUSED. They need to know that this was coming. The officers didn't panic. They were under ORDERS to remove the students. Peaceful negotiations were not working. Too bad for the idiots who thought they could sit there in violation of the law without consequence. It's called learning the hard way.
Um... what?
Let's say I am about to park in a handicapped spot. I am breaking the law. A policeman comes by and shoots me to stop me. Is that justified? Obviously not. The response is totally out of proportion to what I am doing.
This was a peaceful protest in a public space. Spraying with pepper spray and beating with batons is WAY WAY WAY disproportional.
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For all you saying that the police were legally justified for the amount of force use as they students were breaking the law and that removing them peacefully would cause a riot: Why not just shoot the students? Live ammo is the ultimate at preventing riots. And it's not excessive force, as the police would simply be following orders.
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On November 22 2011 03:51 triangle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:40 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 02:09 blinken wrote:On November 22 2011 01:58 Mr Showtime wrote:On November 22 2011 00:40 muse5187 wrote:On November 22 2011 00:34 Mr Showtime wrote:
100% appropriate.
This is one of the most retarded movements I think the world has ever seen. I can almost see what the "occupy wall street" people are trying to achieve, but even that is still retarded because they are essentially protesting the government policies..... while occupying wall street.
THIS here is just straight up stupid on a level I couldn't even fathom before now. They are occupying UC Davis? Seriously? You're not protesting anything; you are being a public nuisance. Wake up.
Police brutality would be the police immediately resorting to pepper spray because they are sitting down in the way of travel. They are getting sprayed to shit because of insubordination and refusal to follow the written laws of the state of California. Serves them right. They are protesting the increase in tuition which has skyrocketed in the last decade. If you don't think police brutality includes walking up to people and spraying OC in directly into their eyes at point blank range I pray you never become a policeman. Not everyone's parents pay their tuition no matter what the cost. Lot's of people take out massive student loans to pay. My apologies for posting an partially ignorant comment, as I was unclear as to what they were protesting. But my original opinion stands. But you and others who disagree with the orders given to these officers act like pepper-spray was the first response plan. Let me repeat that the spraying of the students was not the result their occupation, it was the result of insubordination and refusal to cooperate with the officer's requests as they were in DIRECT violation of state law. Officers get paid to uphold the law. I'd never support police "brutality", but in this case they are doing their job. There's no way in hell that these officers or myself wanted this situation to get to this point, but at some time you will run out of options. They did unfortunately. Please... Pepper spraying students is despicable. Any good-hearted, common-sense bound person can see this. The person who made the call to use pepper spray is in a leadership position, a position of responsibility. This person needs to be able to make moral calls, and not just blindly follow what are clearly archaic laws. I mean, the argument they had to pepper spray these students because they were running out of options is repulsive to me. Some nearly insignificant, non-violent, non-obtrusive protest is such a massive breach of the law, that these officers were in such a panic they felt the need to spray and arrest them? Come on.... Don't start making shit up to create a defense. These officers were not in a "panic" and they did not take the impulsive action to use pepper spray on the students. These students were in violation of the law. They tried for a long while to get them to move along peacefully. The students REFUSED. They need to know that this was coming. The officers didn't panic. They were under ORDERS to remove the students. Peaceful negotiations were not working. Too bad for the idiots who thought they could sit there in violation of the law without consequence. It's called learning the hard way. Um... what? Let's say I am about to park in a handicapped spot. I am breaking the law. A policeman comes by and shoots me to stop me. Is that justified? Obviously not. The response is totally out of proportion to what I am doing. This was a peaceful protest in a public space. Spraying with pepper spray and beating with batons is WAY WAY WAY disproportional.
Bad analogy is bad.
User was warned for this post
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Excessive force is excessive force and brutality. Whether or not these students were breaking any laws or not is beside the point. Campus police have such a tendency to exercise way too much violence probably because most of them have never done real police work and don't get much action otherwise. It disgusts me that tax money goes to feed these pigs.
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On November 22 2011 02:48 Ungrateful wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:44 slappy wrote:
I get a ticket for blocking my driveway, not pepper sprayed in the mouth These people had they're chance for a ticket but they ripped it to shreds (metaphorically) so the next step was used.
So if they were peppersprayed and didn't disperse, would the next step of live ammunition be justified? Is it justified as long as you escalate "step by step".
You do realize also with what you are saying, that in order to "maintain the peace" that is not at risk, the POLICE are ESCALATING violence? Now what happens if people start feeling their lives are at risk in response to the police and start fighting back? Are they not justified to protect themselves, regardless of the whom is threatening their lives, if they truly feel their lives are in jeopardy?
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Peaceful protest or not, the students were being delinquent and refusing to move. I support their cause concerning tuition. And this was a necessary evil to bring it to the public attention.
But had they just gotten up and listened to the cops we wouldn't be hearing anything about this. The Chancellor would not give a shit. And nothing would get done about the ridiculous tuition.
I don't think threatening looking cops, who, these days have an extremely negative reputation, are an appropriate response to such protests. People generally tend to not want to listen to authority figures telling them not to do something they feel passionate and "in the right" about. From what I've seen cops only ever make these situations worse. Perhaps some of them do good by weeding out people in the protests trying to stir up trouble. But we never hear about it.
When all the cops can do to deal with protests is resort to violence I think we need to try finding a better solution to responding to protests.
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United States1719 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:59 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:48 Ungrateful wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 slappy wrote:
I get a ticket for blocking my driveway, not pepper sprayed in the mouth These people had they're chance for a ticket but they ripped it to shreds (metaphorically) so the next step was used. So if they were peppersprayed and didn't disperse, would the next step of live ammunition be justified? Is it justified as long as you escalate "step by step". You do realize also with what you are saying, that in order to "maintain the peace" that is not at risk, the POLICE are ESCALATING violence? Now what happens if people start feeling their lives are at risk in response to the police and start fighting back? Are they not justified to protect themselves, regardless of the whom is threatening their lives, if they truly feel their lives are in jeopardy?
You can't use the slippery slope argument here - the officers' goal was to remove them from the path, and they could either have physically removed the students by grabbing them (which they had to end up doing at the end, because the students did not disperse on their own like you implied) or create an incentive for them to leave on their own accord. They thought the latter was a better choice than grabbing them, and chose what I believe is the least violent way to incentivize the students to leave. Only when that failed, they resorted to physically removing them. It does not escalate "step-by-step" into "live ammunition," you are over-generalizing the case and exaggerating.
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On November 22 2011 04:00 couches wrote:
But had they just gotten up and listened to the cops we wouldn't be hearing anything about this. The Chancellor would not give a shit. And nothing would get done about the ridiculous tuition.
That's the best thing about this. If the cops had just peeled them apart and arrested them, no one would give a shit and the cops would keep their jobs. The way it happened, everyone's eyes are on UCD now and the students now have a much larger platform to make their voice heard and the cops who did it are on administrative leave.
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I cannot believe the response on here from Americans. How do you think you got your freedoms? It was from active, illegal protest against the English. The thing is, just because something is illegal by the letter of the law, it doesn't mean the courts won't uphold the spirit of the law above the letter.
Gandhi is pretty widely accepted to have been a civil revolutionist even though he practised civil disobedience. He broke the law countless times. He was never arrested, because the English new it was a question of human rights. They might be right according to the law, but not according to a greater sense of morality.
What about illegally sitting at the front of the bus? These are not crimes without purpose. They are calculated and meaningful, and should evoke change. The problem is that we are all so jaded that we just don't listen to the protesters.
People on here talking about ethics seem to have never studied the subject. It is not ethical to pepper spray someone regardless of the circumstances. Pepper spray is also not "non-violent." It causes damage and pain, that's pretty obviously violent.
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EPT
