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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On November 02 2011 16:48 nucleo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 16:32 qrs wrote:On November 02 2011 16:19 nucleo wrote:On November 02 2011 15:49 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On November 02 2011 15:42 nucleo wrote:On November 02 2011 12:04 blinken wrote:On November 02 2011 09:33 SupLilSon wrote:On November 02 2011 09:25 XRaDiiX wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:
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sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) Make sense? That's exactly how it happened Israel simply had help from the Allies and/or British and kicked the Palestinians out Literally The Israelis actually believe that they are the Chosen ones and the land belongs to them. But in Reality they exterminated/kicked out/ forced people to migrate out of their home-land where they had been living for 100's of years or more. Palestine is what the land Used to be called until Israelis came in claiming it their chosen land and kicked the Palestinians out. Essentially. Please read a history book for god's sake. In reality Israel was INVADED by the surrounding Arab nations and gained territory during the war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflictAlso a pretty essential read considering how little people here seem to know or care about the actual history of the conflict. Originally, Jewish settlers bought land from the Ottoman sultans, not forcibly taken from Palestinians. The Palestinians who lost their homes lost them because of the impending invasion of 5 major Arab nations into the region. Who cares about your history? All that proves is that the Jews have as much right to Israel as the Native American's do to all of America. That land has been called Palestine FAR longer than Israel. In fact, if you look it up Jewish migration into that land only started little over a hundred years ago. Before that there were barely any Jews even there; before ancient times, of course. What kind of nonsense claim is that? I'm ashamed Canada unconditionally supports Israel. dude, are you serious? first. I have some old coins at home saying "Palestine Land of Israel" But more to the point the Land has benn called Israel/Judea for thousands of years Debating "Who was here first" is not what will help peace and not sit well with any anti-israel argument I'd say, the question is not "Who was here first?" but "We're both here NOW. How do we make it work?" But the present-day Palestinians are the by and large descendants of the ancients (surely you're not claiming those people from Germany, Poland, and Russia who came in the last century are...), so you're defeating your first point :/. As for the second point? Both sides are too full of themselves (in particular the Israelis, not just nowadays, but whose recent ancestors are responsible for the whole clusterfuck in the first place due to the religious extremists mass immigrating from Europe and leading up to the formation of Israel). No simple solution, I'll tell you that. ummm no? The Philistines have nothing to do with the Palestinians. The Palestinians are called that after the name of the land they settled. The land is called that after The people that settled some of that area (more than gaza but over that strip and not west bank) way way before. The entire name, Palestine, Philistines and Pleshet (the original name of the ancient) is coming from the hebrew word for invader or intruder. This is a tangential point, but where did you get that last bit from? The Bible refers to "Philistines" as a nation long before the Jews even existed, so it seems unlikely that this name comes from the Hebrew word for "invader or intruder". Judaism has nothing to do with it. just Ancient/Hebrew where the these names comes from the base of Polesh All I'm saying is that we have the name from the Bible, and from the Bible's point of view, they were not invaders (that is to say, any invasion of theirs happened well before the time that the Bible is concerned with), so speculation about the etymology is just that--speculation. It could be true, but there's really no way to know. I'll take back the word "unlikely" and just say "relatively unsupported".
I looked up Wikipedia for some background. It said:
Biblical scholars often trace the word to the Semitic root p-l-š (Hebrew: פלש) which means to divide, go through, to roll in, cover or invade,[4] with a possible sense in this name as "migrant" or "invader".[5] The name of the Philistines in their own language is not known; however, the Bible also relates them as the people of "Kaftor" (כפתור in Hebrew, see for example the Book of Jeremiah Chapter 47, Verse 4). "Kaftor" is not of Hebrew or Semitic origin, which supports the possibility that this word is similar to the name they called themselves.
Another theory, proposed by Jacobsohn and supported by others, is that the name derives from the attested Illyrian locality Palaeste, whose inhabitants would have been called Palaestīnī according to normal grammatical practice.[6]
Another historian suggests that the name Philistine is a corruption of the Greek "phyle histia" ("tribe of the hearth", with the Ionic spelling of "hestia").[7] He goes on to suggest that they were responsible for introducing the fixed hearth to the Levant. This suggestion was raised before archaeological evidence for the use of the hearths was documented at Philistine sites.
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I am so ashamed that Germany voted against this, but its not surprising at all.
I know everything is connected to politics even if it is something like the UNESCO, but I can not understand how one could argue against protecting some cultural sites and helping to educate and whatnot Palestine..
I hope our government has some objective reasons for doing this , but I fear it's either something like bandwagoning with the US or some sense of guilt towards Israel( which is kind of in the wrong place, in this case(??))...
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On November 02 2011 20:16 bonse wrote:If we go with the article you linked, the palestinians have the same culture, values, folkways, religion and language with all the other arabs in the middle east, and as such they are not a nation but only part of the Arab nation. Show nested quote +
Second, it's about the Palestinian territories in which there are stuff of interest for UNESCO (cultural heritage) which is viewed as Palestine which does not exist as a sovereign state.
These countries voting for, did not vote for existence of Palestine state but for membership in UNESCO for the palestinian territories governed under the name of Palestine.
All the world including the Arabs see this event as a political event. You must be terrible naive or you have bad intentions to claim otherwise. Only states have membership in UNESCO and Palestine is not legally a state. Democracy has nothing to do with it, a state must be declared and recognized through the appropriate channels in order to be legally a state. UNESCO has always taken care of the culturally stuff throughout the territories, no membership was needed for that.
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
So yeah, you're right "Palestine is not legally a state" but you should add : "for my country". It's perfect legal states for the most part of the world's population (China + India + all South east Asia + Russia + Africa + South America).
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On November 02 2011 20:16 bonse wrote:If we go with the article you linked, the palestinians have the same culture, values, folkways, religion and language with all the other arabs in the middle east, and as such they are not a nation but only part of the Arab nation. Show nested quote +
Second, it's about the Palestinian territories in which there are stuff of interest for UNESCO (cultural heritage) which is viewed as Palestine which does not exist as a sovereign state.
These countries voting for, did not vote for existence of Palestine state but for membership in UNESCO for the palestinian territories governed under the name of Palestine.
All the world including the Arabs see this event as a political event. You must be terrible naive or you have bad intentions to claim otherwise. Only states have membership in UNESCO and Palestine is not legally a state. Democracy has nothing to do with it, a state must be declared and recognized through the appropriate channels in order to be legally a state. UNESCO has always taken care of the culturally stuff throughout the territories, no membership was needed for that.
Your reply shows how small your understanding of the arab culture really is and shows your bias. You just said all arabs are the same, you see no difference in them.
It has been turned into a political event mostly because of Israel/USA reaction to it, that's where you'll find the fault.
Please tell me what are the appropriate channels in order to legally be a state. Is Kosovo a state? Is Taiwan? North Abhazia?
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On November 02 2011 21:10 Agathon wrote:
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
Edit
Indeed only sovereign states can recognize other states and establish bi-lateral relations. The U.N. can only admit countries as members in the international body.
As of now, China, Russia and 126 other countries in the world don't consider Palestine a state and didn't establish bi-lateral relations, don't have mutual embassies, diplomats, anything approaching relation between two states. You understand? Not even the Arab states don't have a Palestinian embassy.
The process for becoming a member of the U.N. is strictly established by the U.N. Charter. A country seeking membership must apply to the Secretary General, affirming that it accepts the obligations of membership as outlined in the Charter.
The Secretary General refers the application to the President of the Security Council, and the Council then meets to consider the proposed membership. According to the Charter, membership will be recommended if at least 9 of the 15 Council members vote in favor of the application, and none of the five permanent members (United States, France, Great Britain, China, Russia) vote against (i.e., veto). The Security Council recommendation to welcome a country as a U.N. member is then presented to the General Assembly. Two-thirds of the General Assembly (129 of the current 193 member states) must vote in favor of that state’s membership, which goes into effect the day of the affirmative vote.
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On November 02 2011 20:54 scFoX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 19:17 Agathon wrote:On November 02 2011 18:39 nodnod wrote:
Is Palestine legally a nation? If not, then it shouldn't have been allowed in UNESCO as a nation state. Sure it's a democratic process, but it's like voting for a guy who's not qualified to be in the race in the first place.
Like anything in this place, it's...complicated. For 128 countries in the world (including China, Russia, all estern Europe countries, Africa, South America) it's a legal country. For all the western and northern Europe countries it's not legal...but not illegal...it's...different (As we use to say in french, "Le cul entre deux chaises", the ass between two chairs...). For all other (US/Isreal of course, Canada and Austalia aswell), it's not legal. So, it depends on each country's point of view. Palestine shouldn't be a part of UNESCO for USA, should...or not...or maybe for France, and must absolutly be a part of UNESCO or UN for China. Actually, France voted "yes", which is pretty surprising considering past record. A lot of people were expecting at least an abstain vote. I don't really know what this will entail for the Arab-Israeli conflict, though -- the Israeli Prime Minister has already announced new colonization measures in reprisal. Frightening how this conundrum still isn't resolved after 60 years. 
Remember that France has large muslim community (Third religion, after non belivers and christians) and this community...vote. They needed something to try to satisfy this population, without getting Israel and USA too much angry, and UNESCO is a pretty good choice for national and international french politics.
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On November 02 2011 21:19 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 21:10 Agathon wrote:
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
You are missinformed. There is actually a process to declare a state so it has legal validity in international law. (The recognition of the other states is an important part of it). China, Russia and 126 other countries in the world don't consider Palestine a state, don't have mutual embassies, diplomats, anything approaching relation between two states. You understand? Not even the Arab states don't have a Palestinian embassy.
So again, your problem exactly is...? Because you keep contradicting yourself. First you say you're upset that Palestine has been recognized as a state then say they haven't been recognized as a state because they didn't set up embassies and more official mutual relations.
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On November 02 2011 21:20 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 20:54 scFoX wrote:On November 02 2011 19:17 Agathon wrote:On November 02 2011 18:39 nodnod wrote:
Is Palestine legally a nation? If not, then it shouldn't have been allowed in UNESCO as a nation state. Sure it's a democratic process, but it's like voting for a guy who's not qualified to be in the race in the first place.
Like anything in this place, it's...complicated. For 128 countries in the world (including China, Russia, all estern Europe countries, Africa, South America) it's a legal country. For all the western and northern Europe countries it's not legal...but not illegal...it's...different (As we use to say in french, "Le cul entre deux chaises", the ass between two chairs...). For all other (US/Isreal of course, Canada and Austalia aswell), it's not legal. So, it depends on each country's point of view. Palestine shouldn't be a part of UNESCO for USA, should...or not...or maybe for France, and must absolutly be a part of UNESCO or UN for China. Actually, France voted "yes", which is pretty surprising considering past record. A lot of people were expecting at least an abstain vote. I don't really know what this will entail for the Arab-Israeli conflict, though -- the Israeli Prime Minister has already announced new colonization measures in reprisal. Frightening how this conundrum still isn't resolved after 60 years. Remember that France has large muslim community (Third religion, after non belivers and christians) and this community...vote. They needed something to try to satisfy this population, without getting Israel and USA too much angry, and UNESCO is a pretty good choice for national and international french politics.
I think the main thing is that French people are massively pro-Palestinian these days, which makes perfect sense considering Israel policy since ten or fifteen years. Voting "yes" is basically just a reasonable position, and since the pro-Israel lobbies are wayyyy less powerful here than in the US where they basically dictate the government policy towards Israel and the Palestine, French government has free hands to do what makes the most sense.
I think American Jews and Zionists should start considering the fact that unconditional support to Israel crazy policy is actually not a good attitude for Israel itself. Netanyahu and his government are really putting their country in danger with their stubborn colonialist attitude. Anybody who believes in Israel and its future should be ruthlessly critical on what is going on and Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians.
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On November 02 2011 21:27 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 21:19 bonse wrote:On November 02 2011 21:10 Agathon wrote:
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
You are missinformed. There is actually a process to declare a state so it has legal validity in international law. (The recognition of the other states is an important part of it). China, Russia and 126 other countries in the world don't consider Palestine a state, don't have mutual embassies, diplomats, anything approaching relation between two states. You understand? Not even the Arab states don't have a Palestinian embassy. So again, your problem exactly is...? Because you keep contradicting yourself. First you say you're upset that Palestine has been recognized as a state then say they haven't been recognized as a state because they didn't set up embassies and more official mutual relations.
I edited my original message since it was incorrect.
Only states can be accepted to UNESCO, and while the voting Palestine in it doesn't make Palestine a state, it has the politically purpose of it acting as if it is a state.
This is upsetting because it delays the Peace Process and it breaks the Oslo Accords that they signed with Israel which stipulated that neither side will take unilateral actions but instead sit down and negotiate (which the Palestinians refuse to do).
About the differences between the Arabs in Palestine and the Arabs in Jordan, Syria, Egipt, Lebanon... They really are the same thing. Same language, same religion, same customs... all the criteria that would identify a nation.
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As an Arab I'd like to add my point of view. It would be nice for people from TL to hear our side of the story. Although I'm not Palestinian, I am Lebanese, a country adjacent to Palestine. I can not summarize this debate in a few lines. It's years and years of history, but what I would like to do is clarify a few points.
Semitic is not Jewish. Semitic people generally refer to Arabs AND Jewish people. I am a semite so to speak. This is an issue that has always bothered. The Semitic people are actually the people of the Arabian peninsula and not just Jews.
Back on topic, like the picture that has been posted, from 1948 till now, Palestinians have lost nearly all of their land. This has gone unnoticed by a great deal of the world, and has been done gradually and subtly. Anyone with sufficient knowledge about this subject, can detail step by step how this taking over of a country has been done.
The Palestinian and the Israeli people have been trying to reach a 2 state agreement for quite sometime. Unfortunately it is not meant to be as politics is rather messy and whoever has the most money often decides what they want and not what's best. Blood has been shed unnecessarily time and time again. Call me dramatic, but for anyone who's experienced this head on, I can tell you that somethings you can only know when you see them with your own eyes. This recognition by the UNESCO no matter how good, is only symbolic, and will not help end this struggle in no shape or way.
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On November 02 2011 21:35 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 21:27 Pika Chu wrote:On November 02 2011 21:19 bonse wrote:On November 02 2011 21:10 Agathon wrote:
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
You are missinformed. There is actually a process to declare a state so it has legal validity in international law. (The recognition of the other states is an important part of it). China, Russia and 126 other countries in the world don't consider Palestine a state, don't have mutual embassies, diplomats, anything approaching relation between two states. You understand? Not even the Arab states don't have a Palestinian embassy. So again, your problem exactly is...? Because you keep contradicting yourself. First you say you're upset that Palestine has been recognized as a state then say they haven't been recognized as a state because they didn't set up embassies and more official mutual relations. I edited my original message since it was incorrect. Only states can be accepted to UNESCO, and while the voting Palestine in it doesn't make Palestine a state, it has the politically purpose of it acting as if it is a state. This is upsetting because it delays the Peace Process and it breaks the Oslo Accords that they signed with Israel which stipulated that neither side will take unilateral actions but instead sit down and negotiate (which the Palestinians refuse to do). About the differences between the Arabs in Palestine and the Arabs in Jordan, Syria, Egipt, Lebanon... They really are the same thing. Same language, same religion, same customs... all the criteria that would identify a nation.
Again, it's an israelian only point of view. Palestinian have a different one. For them the peace process is delayed because colonies continue and Israel refuse to come back to the 1967's borders (which israelians refuse to do).
Both point of view are perfectly understandable. What do we do now?
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On November 02 2011 01:12 ilovelings wrote:
Israel aka the country created out of thin air.
Funny that Israel's creation by the UN is joked about while Palestine's total lack of creation by anyone, ever, much less recognition, is left out. The same people appear to support Palestine being created by the UN denounce Israel as not having a right to any land or percieved self-defense because they were simply "created" by the UN. If you think Israel should not have been created, would a second wrong make it alright? And at any rate what is done has been done, should every country everywhere cede it's power to some people that were there before the country was formed? Civilization would crumble.
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The Palestinian people don't need a state, they need Israeli tanks to stop bull dozing their villages. Let's face the facts, Israel is a regional super power. They have the backing of America, gross military superiority and nuclear weapons. Palestine is the worlds largest open air prison. Israel is a terrorist state. Now I don't idolize the Palestinian people either. The truth is usually in conflicts both sides are evil and there's really no way we, as outside observers, can lend much insight into the situation. I think the best thing that the world community can do is stop sending both sides of this conflict money, stop supporting any of them, and leave them to work out their problems on their own.
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why do people even talk about the bible? When will you realize it's words written by people and have no more value then any other book? Actually it should have alot less value since it's so old and was written by many people and was translated so many times that it's actually out of context and wrong. And i'm not even talking about the "god" power in there, destroying citys, big boats with a pair of each species etc..
bah this pisses me off
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On November 02 2011 21:35 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 21:27 Pika Chu wrote:On November 02 2011 21:19 bonse wrote:On November 02 2011 21:10 Agathon wrote:
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
You are missinformed. There is actually a process to declare a state so it has legal validity in international law. (The recognition of the other states is an important part of it). China, Russia and 126 other countries in the world don't consider Palestine a state, don't have mutual embassies, diplomats, anything approaching relation between two states. You understand? Not even the Arab states don't have a Palestinian embassy. So again, your problem exactly is...? Because you keep contradicting yourself. First you say you're upset that Palestine has been recognized as a state then say they haven't been recognized as a state because they didn't set up embassies and more official mutual relations. I edited my original message since it was incorrect. Only states can be accepted to UNESCO, and while the voting Palestine in it doesn't make Palestine a state, it has the politically purpose of it acting as if it is a state. This is upsetting because it delays the Peace Process and it breaks the Oslo Accords that they signed with Israel which stipulated that neither side will take unilateral actions but instead sit down and negotiate (which the Palestinians refuse to do).
Israel's current prime minister deliberately sabotaged the Oslo accords.
http://pulsemedia.org/2010/07/18/the-real-bibi/
http://www.jmcc.org/news.aspx?id=1308
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I find it really interesting in this thread to see how many people blindly believe Europe (and by extension Europeans) have this blind acceptance and tolerance for the Jews/Israel after World War Two.
Don't know who is aware of what the March of the Living is, but while on it marching through Poland I was literally spat on by Polish people. One of whom (and one of the few who did so that spoke enough English to try to continue to antagonize me) outright blamed me (a jew) for what "happened to Poland."
I have also experienced some pretty horrible anti-semitism in other European countries while backpacking through Europe, (France especially, England, and also Denmark stand out). I live in Canada, and it happens here too.
I think it's important that we shed this naivety that antisemitism is a pocketed, isolated problem.
note: For the record, racism exists everywhere. Nobody (short of the white christian male, aged 21-45) is devoid from facing it in their lives. I don't think this allows for a carte blance for Jewish people or Israelis to do as they please. Everyone has a shit time in life, and lots of people are targets for others' anger.
I think it's exceptionally important to try to view this situation without any preconceived bias (which I accept is difficult). This is an issue that has been central to me for my entire life, being that I myself am Jewish yet am also vehemently against the zionist movement. I believe, in spite of my Jewish background, that it is exceptionally important for there to be a Palestinian state.
For the entirety of Israel's history, it has been an enormous struggle for them to try to gain acceptance from their neighbours. Even today, there is an easiness about the peace that Israel does share with - only some- of their neighbours. Israel has often been taken for granted in these situations during their attempts for peace. They defended their own borders in 1967 from six other countries at once, and in the process of defending their land, were able to counter beyond their contain and into enemy territory (vagued SC2 reference, I figured if it's not appropriate here?). Since 1967 Israel has progressively given back that land, inspite of the fact that for all intents and purposes, it was theirs fair and square. Historically they have made other concessions for peace, and they have been taken for granted.
I believe that Israel needs to be the ones helping to form the Palestinian state. They should take the extra step and show they are willing to do what is necessary for peace, even if it's beyond what is in their best interest. Be the first party to take that risk.
...However. If that trust is abused, (for example the Palestinian government doesn't police its citizens and rockets are still being shot out of Palestine into Israel) I would feel strongly that Israel would have every right to then go fuck up whoever there they want. Men, women, soldiers, civilians, whomever. If the Palestinian people truly want peace, then they too have a fucking responsibility to police themselves and do whatever they can to stop the violence against Israel. It has proven it can get their "innocents" killed, and it is about time they put some of their own effort into fixing this situation. This same principle applies to the idiot Israeli zionists that insist on populating Gaza and the West Bank. I don't care about their feelings of entitlement, it's time to mature and grow up, and learn to make some sacrifices. You've get the rest of the "Holy Land" to choose from, your indignation gets people killed, it's time to pack up your shit and move out.
The history of Israel's attempts for peace can be summed up in the phrase: if you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for a glass of milk
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On November 03 2011 01:50 Durp wrote:I find it really interesting in this thread to see how many people blindly believe Europe (and by extension Europeans) have this blind acceptance and tolerance for the Jews/Israel after World War Two. Don't know who is aware of what the March of the Living is, but while on it marching through Poland I was literally spat on by Polish people. One of whom (and one of the few who did so that spoke enough English to try to continue to antagonize me) outright blamed me (a jew) for what "happened to Poland." I have also experienced some pretty horrible anti-semitism in other European countries while backpacking through Europe, (France especially, England, and also Denmark stand out). I live in Canada, and it happens here too. I think it's important that we shed this naivety that antisemitism is a pocketed, isolated problem. note: For the record, racism exists everywhere. Nobody (short of the white christian male, aged 21-45) is devoid from facing it in their lives. I don't think this allows for a carte blance for Jewish people or Israelis to do as they please. Everyone has a shit time in life, and lots of people are targets for others' anger.
I think it's exceptionally important to try to view this situation without any preconceived bias (which I accept is difficult). This is an issue that has been central to me for my entire life, being that I myself am Jewish yet am also vehemently against the zionist movement. I believe, in spite of my Jewish background, that it is exceptionally important for there to be a Palestinian state.
For the entirety of Israel's history, it has been an enormous struggle for them to try to gain acceptance from their neighbours. Even today, there is an easiness about the peace that Israel does share with - only some- of their neighbours. Israel has often been taken for granted in these situations during their attempts for peace. They defended their own borders in 1967 from six other countries at once, and in the process of defending their land, were able to counter beyond their contain and into enemy territory (vagued SC2 reference, I figured if it's not appropriate here?). Since 1967 Israel has progressively given back that land, inspite of the fact that for all intents and purposes, it was theirs fair and square. Historically they have made other concessions for peace, and they have been taken for granted.
I believe that Israel needs to be the ones helping to form the Palestinian state. They should take the extra step and show they are willing to do what is necessary for peace, even if it's beyond what is in their best interest. Be the first party to take that risk.
...However. If that trust is abused, (for example the Palestinian government doesn't police its citizens and rockets are still being shot out of Palestine into Israel) I would feel strongly that Israel would have every right to then go fuck up whoever there they want. Men, women, soldiers, civilians, whomever. If the Palestinian people truly want peace, then they too have a fucking responsibility to police themselves and do whatever they can to stop the violence against Israel. It has proven it can get their "innocents" killed, and it is about time they put some of their own effort into fixing this situation. This same principle applies to the idiot Israeli zionists that insist on populating Gaza and the West Bank. I don't care about their feelings of entitlement, it's time to mature and grow up, and learn to make some sacrifices. You've get the rest of the "Holy Land" to choose from, your indignation gets people killed, it's time to pack up your shit and move out.
The history of Israel's attempts for peace can be summed up in the phrase: if you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for a glass of milk
Ah, so everyone is wrong, and the Israelis are innocent lambs, including how the country was founded. I learn a new thing every day. Btw, Israel was the aggressor in '67 with a surprise invasion of Egypt and Syria. Were you talking to people and saying these things and you got spit on? I don't see why people would randomly spit on you because you're Jewish, ESPECIALLY in a country like Poland. The only spitting I've heard of is Israeli Jews spitting on Christians vacationing there, and that's reasonable considering some of those spitting guys are religious fanatics and don't like non-Jews in the country.
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On November 02 2011 21:35 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 21:27 Pika Chu wrote:On November 02 2011 21:19 bonse wrote:On November 02 2011 21:10 Agathon wrote:
What channel? There is just one appropriate channel : Other country's recognition.
For Israel, it's not legally a state. For China or Russia and 126 other countries in the world, it is a state. For western Europe it's a state but...not a state, that's why we use to speak about "Palestinian authority", and not "Palestinian government", because a "government" implys a state and Europe can't be against Israel, because of the weight of recent history (specialy Germany and France).
You are missinformed. There is actually a process to declare a state so it has legal validity in international law. (The recognition of the other states is an important part of it). China, Russia and 126 other countries in the world don't consider Palestine a state, don't have mutual embassies, diplomats, anything approaching relation between two states. You understand? Not even the Arab states don't have a Palestinian embassy. So again, your problem exactly is...? Because you keep contradicting yourself. First you say you're upset that Palestine has been recognized as a state then say they haven't been recognized as a state because they didn't set up embassies and more official mutual relations. I edited my original message since it was incorrect. Only states can be accepted to UNESCO, and while the voting Palestine in it doesn't make Palestine a state, it has the politically purpose of it acting as if it is a state. This is upsetting because it delays the Peace Process and it breaks the Oslo Accords that they signed with Israel which stipulated that neither side will take unilateral actions but instead sit down and negotiate (which the Palestinians refuse to do). About the differences between the Arabs in Palestine and the Arabs in Jordan, Syria, Egipt, Lebanon... They really are the same thing. Same language, same religion, same customs... all the criteria that would identify a nation.
well you see israel makes unilateral actions all the time, well sort of you see 60 people die in suicide bombing so israel defence forces send dozen 1 tonne JDAMS into some refugeee camps which the have "credible evidence" the culprits are hiding in, then they send out foot soldiers to patrol the site and further harass the palistiniian populace which for the most part inst strapping bombs to themselves or firing rockets. so dont be mistaken
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On November 03 2011 01:50 Durp wrote:I find it really interesting in this thread to see how many people blindly believe Europe (and by extension Europeans) have this blind acceptance and tolerance for the Jews/Israel after World War Two. Don't know who is aware of what the March of the Living is, but while on it marching through Poland I was literally spat on by Polish people. One of whom (and one of the few who did so that spoke enough English to try to continue to antagonize me) outright blamed me (a jew) for what "happened to Poland." I have also experienced some pretty horrible anti-semitism in other European countries while backpacking through Europe, (France especially, England, and also Denmark stand out). I live in Canada, and it happens here too. I think it's important that we shed this naivety that antisemitism is a pocketed, isolated problem.
Antisemitism in continental Europe between the 1860's and 1933 originated from a primarily self defending motivation, so some might think of it as a tradition (I also dislike March of the Living and any other such events for example) .
Collective punishment is never the solution, but historically it's the easy way to solve things (think of pogroms). When Israel makes a move, it is seen by the world as a move that all Jews agreed upon, and non-Zionist or moderate, or even secular people from Jewish ancestry who don't give a damn about what's going on will suffer from prejudice. Israel knows no responsibilities in my opinion.
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On November 03 2011 02:07 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 01:50 Durp wrote:I find it really interesting in this thread to see how many people blindly believe Europe (and by extension Europeans) have this blind acceptance and tolerance for the Jews/Israel after World War Two. Don't know who is aware of what the March of the Living is, but while on it marching through Poland I was literally spat on by Polish people. One of whom (and one of the few who did so that spoke enough English to try to continue to antagonize me) outright blamed me (a jew) for what "happened to Poland." I have also experienced some pretty horrible anti-semitism in other European countries while backpacking through Europe, (France especially, England, and also Denmark stand out). I live in Canada, and it happens here too. I think it's important that we shed this naivety that antisemitism is a pocketed, isolated problem. note: For the record, racism exists everywhere. Nobody (short of the white christian male, aged 21-45) is devoid from facing it in their lives. I don't think this allows for a carte blance for Jewish people or Israelis to do as they please. Everyone has a shit time in life, and lots of people are targets for others' anger.
I think it's exceptionally important to try to view this situation without any preconceived bias (which I accept is difficult). This is an issue that has been central to me for my entire life, being that I myself am Jewish yet am also vehemently against the zionist movement. I believe, in spite of my Jewish background, that it is exceptionally important for there to be a Palestinian state.
For the entirety of Israel's history, it has been an enormous struggle for them to try to gain acceptance from their neighbours. Even today, there is an easiness about the peace that Israel does share with - only some- of their neighbours. Israel has often been taken for granted in these situations during their attempts for peace. They defended their own borders in 1967 from six other countries at once, and in the process of defending their land, were able to counter beyond their contain and into enemy territory (vagued SC2 reference, I figured if it's not appropriate here?). Since 1967 Israel has progressively given back that land, inspite of the fact that for all intents and purposes, it was theirs fair and square. Historically they have made other concessions for peace, and they have been taken for granted.
I believe that Israel needs to be the ones helping to form the Palestinian state. They should take the extra step and show they are willing to do what is necessary for peace, even if it's beyond what is in their best interest. Be the first party to take that risk.
...However. If that trust is abused, (for example the Palestinian government doesn't police its citizens and rockets are still being shot out of Palestine into Israel) I would feel strongly that Israel would have every right to then go fuck up whoever there they want. Men, women, soldiers, civilians, whomever. If the Palestinian people truly want peace, then they too have a fucking responsibility to police themselves and do whatever they can to stop the violence against Israel. It has proven it can get their "innocents" killed, and it is about time they put some of their own effort into fixing this situation. This same principle applies to the idiot Israeli zionists that insist on populating Gaza and the West Bank. I don't care about their feelings of entitlement, it's time to mature and grow up, and learn to make some sacrifices. You've get the rest of the "Holy Land" to choose from, your indignation gets people killed, it's time to pack up your shit and move out.
The history of Israel's attempts for peace can be summed up in the phrase: if you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for a glass of milk Ah, so everyone is wrong, and the Israelis are innocent lambs, including how the country was founded. I learn a new thing every day. Btw, Israel was the aggressor in '67 with a surprise invasion of Egypt and Syria.
I'd argue otherwise. There were aggressive actions (although not direct action ones) on the opposing sides. They could have defused the situation but they didn't. And you know why? Because they wanted war. Edit: And by they I don't mean Israel.
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EPT
