On October 28 2011 10:29 Johnzee wrote: I went to BlizzCon last weekend and was in the crowd for the closing ceremony, featuring the now-named Level 90 Elite Tauren Chieftain opening up the show.
Anyone who was there or who was watching it on the livestream probably saw this segment from George 'Corpsegrinder' Fisher, from the death-metal band Cannibal Corpse, just before he made an appearance on stage as a guest performer:
*having trouble embedding video in the post, so links will have to do* + Show Spoiler +
So when I saw it, what he was saying really went one ear and out the other. They censored the crap out of him, I don't play WoW anymore, was never big on faction pride anyway, and furthermore I don't listen to metal so I didn't know who this guy was. All I know is that he showed up during L90ETC's concert to make a cameo performance. That was last Saturday.
Fast forward to today, when I found multiple posts on Facebook concerning Fisher's anti-Alliance rant. Some of my super-academic friends (two university professors concerned with history and gender studies, respectively) took some huge offense to this and were blaming Blizzard for basically promoting and condoning this guy (by letting him perform) who was using anti-gay slurs in this video they featured.
Interesting that I can't find anything on TL about it, maybe everyone's real chill or just didn't notice the situation. I'm unsure where I stand on this, and I'm wondering what everyone else thinks about this too, particularly our gay community (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147829)
Are my friends right, and Blizzard should be ashamed/apologize for allowing this guy to "represent" them during the concert at Blizzcon?
Or was Blizzard without blame here, censoring his "speech" and using it only to incite some WoW faction passion for their concert?
Your two friends are lame bro.
Even if it was a slur so what I never understand why people can be so much more offended when insulted about their race/sexual orientation, while completely ignoring being called an asshole or a dickhead etc. People need to get off their politically correct highhorses and realize an insult is an insult, its meant to hurt, and using a slur doesn't necessarily make you a racist/homophobe.
After reading this thread, I'm glad TL still has a sense of humor. I mean you have to take a break from the perpetual moral indignation at some point.
In grown up world you don't run to your parents and tattle when someone says something you don't like. I know that urge can be hard to extricate if you've been sheltered. Spend a couple more years on the less moderated sections of the internet and hopefully your skin will be thick as leather. We could ALL use some thicker skin.
In the meantime I guess go on the internet and complain.
I think the biggest issue is where do we, as the community, draw the line on this sort of speech? When is it not okay because he's famous, or in a deathmetal band, or joking, or worked up in the moment? Where do we say 'no, it's not okay for you to shout this at a crowd of 25,000 of us? If it's not calling a portion of the crowd 'emo cocksuckers', maybe I'm not sure I really want to know where the line is. It seems a little vile.
On October 28 2011 10:29 Johnzee wrote: I went to BlizzCon last weekend and was in the crowd for the closing ceremony, featuring the now-named Level 90 Elite Tauren Chieftain opening up the show.
Anyone who was there or who was watching it on the livestream probably saw this segment from George 'Corpsegrinder' Fisher, from the death-metal band Cannibal Corpse, just before he made an appearance on stage as a guest performer:
*having trouble embedding video in the post, so links will have to do* + Show Spoiler +
So when I saw it, what he was saying really went one ear and out the other. They censored the crap out of him, I don't play WoW anymore, was never big on faction pride anyway, and furthermore I don't listen to metal so I didn't know who this guy was. All I know is that he showed up during L90ETC's concert to make a cameo performance. That was last Saturday.
Fast forward to today, when I found multiple posts on Facebook concerning Fisher's anti-Alliance rant. Some of my super-academic friends (two university professors concerned with history and gender studies, respectively) took some huge offense to this and were blaming Blizzard for basically promoting and condoning this guy (by letting him perform) who was using anti-gay slurs in this video they featured.
Interesting that I can't find anything on TL about it, maybe everyone's real chill or just didn't notice the situation. I'm unsure where I stand on this, and I'm wondering what everyone else thinks about this too, particularly our gay community (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147829)
Are my friends right, and Blizzard should be ashamed/apologize for allowing this guy to "represent" them during the concert at Blizzcon?
Or was Blizzard without blame here, censoring his "speech" and using it only to incite some WoW faction passion for their concert?
Your two friends are lame bro.
Even if it was a slur so what I never understand why people can be so much more offended when insulted about their race/sexual orientation, while completely ignoring being called an asshole or a dickhead etc. People need to get off their politically correct highhorses and realize an insult is an insult, its meant to hurt, and using a slur doesn't necessarily make you a racist/homophobe.
Pretty much this. The guy in the video is obviously just a rude idiot. I don't know how anyone could be offended by it or even care what comes out of his mouth. And what the hell are gender studies? Feminism and stuff? I really hate it how suddenly every single chapter in Giddens' textbook has a section dedicated to women's point of view etc.
I have nothing against feminism, gays, equality and all that but I do in fact have a lot against paranoia and going overboard with such things.
Edit: I think that this thread needs more Morgan Freeman.
This is kind of low-hanging fruit. I mean, it's objectively wrong, but it's also relatively innocuous and basically pointless to get outraged over the actions of the singer of a band whose schtick is being offensive. Kids getting bullied every day in just about every school in America for being gay, or even the widespread, careless use of the word 'faggot' in 'gaming culture', are things that actually deserve attention and examination.
I mean, maybe there are some gay people out there who are way too emotionally invested in video games, and this particular (relatively minor) instance of homophobia in their favorite MMORPG is just too much to bear. I guess that I can understand that, and Blizzard should apologize. But in a society filled with injustices against gays, making a big issue out of insignificant things like this trivializes real, important problems.
These grown up words and these hurtful comments are too hard for me to take in. I prefer not to listen to these things when I voluntarily view media or attend a concert. I should voice my outrage at the corporation that has distributed and or enabled this to happen. Hopefully my efforts will stop this type of freedom from being exercised in the future. This should not be allowed.
I also have a bone to pick with Dradels. First of all, I don't have a kiln so I can't actually make one out of clay. I'm also not Jewish. At the very least, I felt like a phony when I sang that song back at holiday parties in Elementary school. I think I'm going to pass a movement to have that banned. But if I do that, what about the Jewish kids singing Christmas carols? Eh, I celebrate Christmas so I'm not about to let those Jewish folks try to ruin my holiday cheer..
Holiday..
I know! Let's just call it Holiday season, instead of anything that might upset anyone who is fond of any particular celebration.
On October 28 2011 12:01 Brettatron wrote: I've lost faith in this board. For months and months I've read fewer and fewer threads. Why? Because the quality is going down more and more. We all knew it would happen.
But now this. You are ignorant. You scan over a thread and think you know everything about it. You don't bother to think about OTHER PEOPLE or what their situation may be. No, this is not about the use of the words cocksucker or some such. Words are words, we can all agree. What this is about is alienating a group of people. Maybe it is because this is a majority Starcraft forum but the amount of ignorance displayed here is mind boggleing.
My beef is not with the word cocksucker. Not with the word gay. Not with the word faggot. My beef is for the frenzy these words, used in a certain manner can incite. It is NO secret that the horde outnumber the alliance. When you get some 25000 people together there starts to be a bit of a mob mentality. People scream and shout because others are screaming and shouting. When one person gets put on screen insulting the alliance with a stream of expletatives what do you think the rest of the horde-aligned people are going to do? Cheer, scream and insult, which is precisely what happened.
Now, at Blizzcon there is no separation by faction or game or anything like that for the people there. This means that peppered throughout the crowed were alliance only people. I imagine these people knew it was a joke. But imagine this, a girl sitting with a couple of friends, wearing a moonglade t-shirt, who plays a night elf main. All of a sudden the ENTIRE CROWD is cheering about hatred for the alliance and yelling insults. Knowing a little about mob mentality, I imagine she might get a little scared, since the crowd is predominently male. Not insulted because someone went on screen and acted immature. Scared. Scared that the frenzy created might get out of hand. Again, the crowd was predominently male, aged 18-25. That demographic isn't known for always keeping a level head.
THIS is the problem with what Blizzard did. They incited a frenzy with anti-alliance sentiments. This extends BEYOND the game. This is not "just a game" anymore. Now real people are feeling scared and alienated just for being there. Make no mistake, this is a real feeling. In atleast one case there was actual violence against a person simply for displaying alliance symbols:
I believe there was another incident as well, but I do not have that link off hand. I have also heard anecdotes of people displaying alliance affiliation having random insults and jeers directed towards them.
Ultimately, the above example was the fault of the two boys. But if Blizzard hadn't evoked such emotions with their video and cheering perhaps it would not have happened. Obviously the kids were running on adrenaline (I hope, I hate to think such delinquents are apart of our humble community). Perhaps if the frenzy weren't initiated they would have run around wooping about how awesome the foo fighters were instead.
The offense is not from the guy from the video. He was immature and it was a bit ridiculous. The offence is from the fact that Blizzard did not stop to consider what this might cause. The lack of empathy shown makes me sick. You people make me sick.
Cue the trolling, I have come to expect no less around here. #MartyrForTrolling.
My thoughts exactly. The man in the video basically started an uproar from one group of people against another by being aggressively and passionately for the horde and against the alliance. It doesn't matter that it's a video game which causes these distinctions between people, the brutish, emotional call uniting any group of people for one cause incites a mob. The enthusiasm the horde player's manifesto incited literally makes the crowd more primitive, more violent and less socially responsible. They lose their ability to judge the ethical implications of their actions and the potential for chaos occurs. It was a dangerous scenario which should be avoided at all costs. Even though nothing serious went down, the uneasiness and fear that the horde mob probably caused in the alliance players there is simply unacceptable, everyone there should have been able to feel safe and comfortable in their environment.
I'm guessing by "the uneasiness and fear that the horde mob probably caused in the alliance players" that you probably weren't there. I was, and back when I played WoW (left just before Cata was released) I was Alliance. There was no fear in that room, the atmosphere was electric, excited, and fun... that's about it. Having an anti-Alliance band on the stage was what finally made me cheer and show some faction pride, and anyone there will tell you that after that video, the Alliance cheers were even louder than before.
Point being, it wasn't this fear filled/nearly rioting mass of angry people, it was a bunch of nerds cheering for their faction (on both sides). This wasn't a protest, or a hate speech, or anywhere near a 'dangerous situation.' It was a damn nerd convention where 26,000 people got together to support the games/company we love. It wasn't a divisive convention... quite the opposite! Seeing the passion everyone had for their respective games/factions/races/etc made my buddy who went with me pick up WoW again.
On October 28 2011 10:50 ahx wrote: Cannibal Corpse has been protested by every group imaginable, including gay rights.. he doesn't hate gay people and taking this seriously is the real joke here.
exactly, I'm surprised they protested that instead of some of the things that have been written in cannibal corpse songs, all of which are infinitely more foul and offensive than any of the gay slurs he used in his alliance rant.
Sounds like he was joking, I mean who smile and laugh while ranting. People making something out of nothing PC as usual. BTW I don't recommend Destiny's stream or pretty much anyone else stream to anyone who found that offensive cause that word comes out all the time.
On October 28 2011 12:01 Brettatron wrote: I've lost faith in this board. For months and months I've read fewer and fewer threads. Why? Because the quality is going down more and more. We all knew it would happen.
But now this. You are ignorant. You scan over a thread and think you know everything about it. You don't bother to think about OTHER PEOPLE or what their situation may be. No, this is not about the use of the words cocksucker or some such. Words are words, we can all agree. What this is about is alienating a group of people. Maybe it is because this is a majority Starcraft forum but the amount of ignorance displayed here is mind boggleing.
My beef is not with the word cocksucker. Not with the word gay. Not with the word faggot. My beef is for the frenzy these words, used in a certain manner can incite. It is NO secret that the horde outnumber the alliance. When you get some 25000 people together there starts to be a bit of a mob mentality. People scream and shout because others are screaming and shouting. When one person gets put on screen insulting the alliance with a stream of expletatives what do you think the rest of the horde-aligned people are going to do? Cheer, scream and insult, which is precisely what happened.
Now, at Blizzcon there is no separation by faction or game or anything like that for the people there. This means that peppered throughout the crowed were alliance only people. I imagine these people knew it was a joke. But imagine this, a girl sitting with a couple of friends, wearing a moonglade t-shirt, who plays a night elf main. All of a sudden the ENTIRE CROWD is cheering about hatred for the alliance and yelling insults. Knowing a little about mob mentality, I imagine she might get a little scared, since the crowd is predominently male. Not insulted because someone went on screen and acted immature. Scared. Scared that the frenzy created might get out of hand. Again, the crowd was predominently male, aged 18-25. That demographic isn't known for always keeping a level head.
THIS is the problem with what Blizzard did. They incited a frenzy with anti-alliance sentiments. This extends BEYOND the game. This is not "just a game" anymore. Now real people are feeling scared and alienated just for being there. Make no mistake, this is a real feeling. In atleast one case there was actual violence against a person simply for displaying alliance symbols:
I believe there was another incident as well, but I do not have that link off hand. I have also heard anecdotes of people displaying alliance affiliation having random insults and jeers directed towards them.
Ultimately, the above example was the fault of the two boys. But if Blizzard hadn't evoked such emotions with their video and cheering perhaps it would not have happened. Obviously the kids were running on adrenaline (I hope, I hate to think such delinquents are apart of our humble community). Perhaps if the frenzy weren't initiated they would have run around wooping about how awesome the foo fighters were instead.
The offense is not from the guy from the video. He was immature and it was a bit ridiculous. The offence is from the fact that Blizzard did not stop to consider what this might cause. The lack of empathy shown makes me sick. You people make me sick.
Cue the trolling, I have come to expect no less around here. #MartyrForTrolling.
My thoughts exactly. The man in the video basically started an uproar from one group of people against another by being aggressively and passionately for the horde and against the alliance. It doesn't matter that it's a video game which causes these distinctions between people, the brutish, emotional call uniting any group of people for one cause incites a mob. The enthusiasm the horde player's manifesto incited literally makes the crowd more primitive, more violent and less socially responsible. They lose their ability to judge the ethical implications of their actions and the potential for chaos occurs. It was a dangerous scenario which should be avoided at all costs. Even though nothing serious went down, the uneasiness and fear that the horde mob probably caused in the alliance players there is simply unacceptable, everyone there should have been able to feel safe and comfortable in their environment.
I'm guessing by "the uneasiness and fear that the horde mob probably caused in the alliance players" that you probably weren't there. I was, and back when I played WoW (left just before Cata was released) I was Alliance. There was no fear in that room, the atmosphere was electric, excited, and fun... that's about it. Having an anti-Alliance band on the stage was what finally made me cheer and show some faction pride, and anyone there will tell you that after that video, the Alliance cheers were even louder than before.
Point being, it wasn't this fear filled/nearly rioting mass of angry people, it was a bunch of nerds cheering for their faction (on both sides). This wasn't a protest, or a hate speech, or anywhere near a 'dangerous situation.' It was a damn nerd convention where 26,000 people got together to support the games/company we love. It wasn't a divisive convention... quite the opposite! Seeing the passion everyone had for their respective games/factions/races/etc made my buddy who went with me pick up WoW again.
I was, in fact, there. And I don't expect that the majority did feel any fear. I didn't, I'm a 20 something male who has been in his share of scraps. But its that lack of empathy, and not realizing not everyone is that iritates me. Refer back to my original post and try to put yourself in those situations. It's not hard to think that someone might have felt uncomfortable after some 15000 people just cheered when a guy on screen called you a cocksucker. Wheres it going next? "Rape the alliance"? More cheers (lets not kid ourselves, we all accept rape as a usable word, despite the many protests against it. Its not hard to conceive of hearing this). Then instead of just assaulting some woman wearing a Night Elf shirt walking back from the convention centre she gets raped. Consideration for the audience is key.
On October 28 2011 13:22 Brettatron wrote: It's not hard to think that someone might have felt uncomfortable after some 15000 people just cheered when a guy on screen called you a cocksucker.
Except that the guy on stage didn't call any individual a cocksucker. He called an entire group of people cocksuckers. Also, given that we're all equipped with brains that work to some acceptable degree (hopefully), everyone can think, "well, I don't really remember having a cock in my mouth.." and move on with their lives.
I think your point of view is applicable if there is a developmentally challenged individual in the crowd who believes that 15000 people were cheering because HE sucked some cocks recently.
On October 28 2011 13:22 Brettatron wrote: It's not hard to think that someone might have felt uncomfortable after some 15000 people just cheered when a guy on screen called you a cocksucker.
Except that the guy on stage didn't call any individual a cocksucker. He called an entire group of people cocksuckers. Also, given that we're all equipped with brains that work to some acceptable degree (hopefully), everyone can think, "well, I don't really remember having a cock in my mouth.." and move on with their lives.
I think your point of view is applicable if there is a developmentally challenged individual in the crowd who believes that, out of 15000 people were cheering because HE sucked some cocks recently.
This is why I don't post ;\
edited for clarity
You are forgetting the fact that there was far more horde than alliance. Yes, he called the group of people cocksuckers. No, no one actually thinks they sucked cock. You are missing the point again. That one smaller alliance person surrounded by a screaming horde players isnt afraid because he (or she) thinks he sucked cock and they will punish him for it. It is fear that they are on the minority side and that the majority is in a frenzy against them.
EPT
